Micronorth Keyboard

coolrainbow20

17 Apr 2021, 21:19

Finally I made an Soarers Converter with a Pro Micro exactly like shown in the pdf.
All of my ps/2 keyboards that I've tested seem to work, but not the micronorth keyboard. The micronorth keyboard is just outputting "rFF" on all keystrokes (up and down). So it seems to work, but the codes are just not usable keycodes. See the newest pics of the Num Lock and Caps Lock LEDs working and pretty cool looking here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Chyros

19 Apr 2021, 17:23

I have the same keyboard, it's an old Cherry G80, it seems. I'd never heard of Micronorth before. Curiously, it has no Cherry markings on it.

It's XT protocol, it seemws. PS/2 converters won't work, but an XT-capable converter should work. One of Orihalcon's Soarers' weorks for me.

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Muirium
µ

19 Apr 2021, 17:31

Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:23
One of Orihalcon's Soarers' weorks for me.
Are you seore about that?

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Chyros

19 Apr 2021, 19:29

Muirium wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:31
Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:23
One of Orihalcon's Soarers' weorks for me.
Are you seore about that?
It weorks for me, Meoreom! ;p

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Myoth

19 Apr 2021, 20:38

Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:23
it's an old Cherry G80 [...] it has no Cherry markings on it.
don't think it's quite Cherry then, is it ?

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Chyros

19 Apr 2021, 23:46

Myoth wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 20:38
Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:23
it's an old Cherry G80 [...] it has no Cherry markings on it.
don't think it's quite Cherry then, is it ?
Took the old girl out of the box again to refresh my memory and you're definitely right; it's got a mounting plate – steel even. No way a genuine Cherry MX board would have build quality as good as that :p .

The keycaps look to me like they're Cherry-made though. Or good lookalikes.

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Myoth

20 Apr 2021, 01:13

Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 23:46
Myoth wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 20:38
Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:23
it's an old Cherry G80 [...] it has no Cherry markings on it.
don't think it's quite Cherry then, is it ?
you're definitely right; it's got a mounting plate – steel even. No way a genuine Cherry MX board would have build quality as good as that :p
Haha, I get you, Cherry could never use a plate. That'd be mental!

micmil

20 Apr 2021, 02:27

Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:29
Muirium wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:31
Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:23
One of Orihalcon's Soarers' weorks for me.
Are you seore about that?
It weorks for me, Meoreom! ;p
No Welsh language on the forum, please.

Lanrefni

20 Apr 2021, 04:51

micmil wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 02:27
Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:29
Muirium wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:31

Are you seore about that?
It weorks for me, Meoreom! ;p
No Welsh language on the forum, please.
Way too many vowels for Welsh.

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photekq
Cherry Picker

20 Apr 2021, 14:11

micmil wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 02:27
No Welsh language on the forum, please.
cer i grafu

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Muirium
µ

20 Apr 2021, 14:22

Ach, tha Beurla cho blian! Tha a' Chuimris sporsail.

coolrainbow20

20 Apr 2021, 17:05

Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:23
I have the same keyboard, it's an old Cherry G80, it seems. I'd never heard of Micronorth before. Curiously, it has no Cherry markings on it.
Image
This keyboard was for an eastern (asian) IBM PC Portable clone (it has some sliders with tabs that are labeled "open" to detach the keyboard from the system, revealing the green monochrome display and the floppy drives.)
More info about that system here: https://hblankes.home.xs4all.nl/Museum/ ... titerm.htm

So basically the company multiterm bought the keyboard at the "almost nothing is known" Taiwan manufacture from Micronorth, wich bought Switches / Keycaps and maybe even more (mounting plate) from the far west in Germany at Cherry. But even though Alps Electric was closer to Taiwan, they still wanted Cherry switches from Germany.

Chyros wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 17:23
It's XT protocol, it seemws. PS/2 converters won't work, but an XT-capable converter should work. One of Orihalcon's Soarers' weorks for me.
I am talking about my Soarers' Converter, not just a regular PS/2 converter:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dDVGSQ ... sp=sharing
The only thing I think that might be the problem is: I put the pins in the wrong position for a short time, but then again the keyboard is still accepting keypresses and even the lock lights are switch-able (talking about switches ;))

I tried two different PS/2 keyboards and they worked flawlessly. This is the output of the hid_listener (the top entry is a ps/2 keyboard and the bottom is the "not working" xt keyboard):


---------------------------

Code: Select all

Waiting for new device:..........................................
Listening:
wEE rEE wF2 rFA rAB r83

remaining: 0051
2C@0008 remaps
05@0034 layers
20@0039 remaps
layerdefs: 01
max_layer: 01
total_macros: 00
alloc ok.


Keyboard ID: AB83
Code Set: 2 (extended)
Mode: AT/PS2

wED rFA w00 rFA



---------------------------------

Code: Select all

Waiting for new device:..................................
Listening:
wEE

remaining: 0051
2C@0008 remaps
05@0034 layers
20@0039 remaps
layerdefs: 01
max_layer: 01
total_macros: 00
alloc ok.


Keyboard ID: 0000
Code Set: 1
Mode: PC/XT

The PS/2 Keyboard has a proper Keyboard ID, while the XT Keyboard has just four zeroes. Also while typing on the XT Keyboard the hid_listener outputs rFF everytime I press and everytime I release a key (so it does in fact read off the keyboard). Interestingly even the Lock lights light up when I press the related lock key, but no locking is made on the computer side.

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Chyros

20 Apr 2021, 18:27

That's not super weird. XT keyboards handled lock lights themselves, because the XT protocol was unidirectional. The computer couldn't tell it what mode it was in, so it just counted the amount of times you pressed the lock lights. It's pretty easy to desync them.

What is weird is that it's not working for you. I just tried again and it works flawlessly with mine. I'm even typing this on it.

Thanks for the info by the way, quite interesting! This is a project I had shelved a while ago but not looked into in great detail. It's a good reminder I should wrap this one up and get it done :) .

coolrainbow20

20 Apr 2021, 18:41

Chyros wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 18:27
That's not super weird. XT keyboards handled lock lights themselves, because the XT protocol was unidirectional. The computer couldn't tell it what mode it was in, so it just counted the amount of times you pressed the lock lights. It's pretty easy to desync them.

I think one of your videos told me that.
Chyros wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 18:27
What is weird is that it's not working for you. I just tried again and it works flawlessly with mine. I'm even typing this on it.
If you run the hid_listener, what output are you getting with a xt keyboard plugged in to soarers? Maybe I can find out what makes it different.

To my understanding the switches in this keyboard are vintage cherry mx blacks. I saw that the linear gray switch under the huge spacebar has a slight yellowish appearance and that seems to be a vintage variant, so I came to conclusion, that the other switches are vintage too, aside from the old pre 1985 xt layout and the build quality (metal mounting plate, screw only system).
Last edited by coolrainbow20 on 20 Apr 2021, 18:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Muirium
µ

20 Apr 2021, 18:46

All XT keyboards are Keyboard ID: 0000. They have no way to tell Soarer’s converter otherwise. Unidirectional data stream. An XT keyboard just shows up and does all the talking. You can’t ask it anything.

coolrainbow20

20 Apr 2021, 18:59

Muirium wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 18:46
All XT keyboards are Keyboard ID: 0000. They have no way to tell Soarer’s converter otherwise. Unidirectional data stream. An XT keyboard just shows up and does all the talking. You can’t ask it anything.
Ah, ok. But why is mine not working correctly? I see that the keyboard does something, but it's just not usable. It's like my computer is speaking english and the keyboard is speaking japanese. I think the converter doesn't translate correctly.

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Muirium
µ

20 Apr 2021, 19:18

Try writing a blank config to it. That might clear things up. I have an empty null.sc text file for just this purpose.

coolrainbow20

20 Apr 2021, 19:25

Muirium wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 19:18
Try writing a blank config to it. That might clear things up. I have an empty null.sc text file for just this purpose.
I tried that, but it still gives the same output:
Image

coolrainbow20

20 Apr 2021, 19:29

Hm, is maybe the pinout on that board different?

coolrainbow20

20 Apr 2021, 23:03

Muirium wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 18:46
All XT keyboards are Keyboard ID: 0000. They have no way to tell Soarer’s converter otherwise. Unidirectional data stream. An XT keyboard just shows up and does all the talking. You can’t ask it anything.
Can someone paste a full log output of an working xt keyboard using hid_listener.
I really want to see the difference myself.

User avatar
Chyros

21 Apr 2021, 13:10

coolrainbow20 wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 23:03
Muirium wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 18:46
All XT keyboards are Keyboard ID: 0000. They have no way to tell Soarer’s converter otherwise. Unidirectional data stream. An XT keyboard just shows up and does all the talking. You can’t ask it anything.
Can someone paste a full log output of an working xt keyboard using hid_listener.
I really want to see the difference myself.
If you tell me what to do I'll show the output of my own Micronorth xD .

coolrainbow20

21 Apr 2021, 14:17

Chyros wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 13:10
coolrainbow20 wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 23:03
Muirium wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 18:46
All XT keyboards are Keyboard ID: 0000. They have no way to tell Soarer’s converter otherwise. Unidirectional data stream. An XT keyboard just shows up and does all the talking. You can’t ask it anything.
Can someone paste a full log output of an working xt keyboard using hid_listener.
I really want to see the difference myself.
If you tell me what to do I'll show the output of my own Micronorth xD .
Ok, great.

So to do the thing you have to do several steps in the correct order to get it showing the output:

1. Download the software hid_listener from here: http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/hid_listen.html
2. Start the software
3. And then plug in the keyboard with attached converter into an usb port
4. Type some text (i.e. the quick brown fox)
5. select all of the input, including the very top and paste it here like this:

Code: Select all

Waiting for device:......
Listening:
wEE rEE wF2 rFA rAB r83

remaining: 0000


Keyboard ID: AB83
Code Set: 2 (extended)
Mode: AT/PS2

wED rFA w00 rFA
r12 +E1 dE1
r2C +17 d17
rF0 r2C -17 u17 rF0 r12 -E1 uE1
r33 +0B d0B
rF0 r33 -0B u0B r24 +08 d08
rF0 r24 -08 u08
r29 +2C d2C
rF0 r29 -2C u2C
r15 +14 d14
rF0 r15 -14 u14
r3C +18 d18
rF0 r3C -18 u18
r43 +0C d0C
rF0 r43 -0C u0C
r21 +06 d06
rF0 r21 -06 u06 r42 +0E d0E
rF0 r42 -0E u0E
r29 +2C d2C
rF0 r29 -2C u2C r32 +05 d05
rF0 r32 -05 u05
r2D +15 d15
rF0 r2D -15 u15 r44 +12 d12
rF0 r44 -12 u12
r31 +11 d11
rF0 r31 -11 u11
r66 +2A d2A
rF0 r66 -2A u2A r1D +1A d1A
rF0 r1D -1A u1A
r31 +11 d11
rF0 r31 -11 u11
r29 +2C d2C
rF0 r29 -2C u2C
r2B +09 d09
rF0 r2B -09 u09 r44 +12 d12
rF0 r44 -12 u12
r22 +1B d1B
rF0 r22 -1B u1B r29 +2C d2C
rF0 r29 -2C u2C
r3B +0D d0D
r3C +18 d18 rF0 r3B -0D u0D
rF0 r3C -18 u18
r3A +10 d10
rF0 r3A -10 u10
r4D +13 d13
rF0 r4D -13 u13
r1B +16 d16
rF0 r1B -16 u16 r29 +2C d2C
rF0 r29 -2C u2C
r44 +12 d12
rF0 r44 -12 u12 r2A +19 d19
rF0 r2A -19 u19
r24 +08 d08
rF0 r24 -08 u08
r2D +15 d15
rF0 r2D -15 u15
r29 +2C d2C
rF0 r29 -2C u2C
r2C +17 d17
rF0 r2C -17 u17 r33 +0B d0B
rF0 r33 -0B u0B
r24 +08 d08
rF0 r24 -08 u08 r29 +2C d2C
rF0 r29 -2C u2C
r4B +0F d0F
rF0 r4B -0F u0F
r1C +04 d04
rF0 r1C -04 u04
r35 +1C d1C
rF0 r35 -1C u1C r1A +1D d1D
rF0 r1A -1D u1D
r29 +2C d2C
rF0 r29 -2C u2C
r23 +07 d07
rF0 r23 -07 u07
r44 +12 d12
rF0 r44 -12 u12
r34 +0A d0A
rF0 r34 -0A u0A
r49 +37 d37
rF0 r49 -37 u37
r5A +28 d28 rF0 r5A -28 u28

What Micronorth Keyboad do you have? Can you show me some pics of it? Is it also an XT Keyboard?


Also according to this website, the output FF means Keyboard error. Not sure what causes this, or if it even is an error. Maybe the Keyboard seems to operate differently than other XT Keyboards. I might buy another XT Keyboard to further test this out.

And I also found out that there are not two (XT/AT) Modes but 4 Modes, as seen on the Focus FK-2002 Keyboard:
Image

User avatar
Chyros

21 Apr 2021, 19:50

Here's "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog":

Code: Select all

Waiting for device:
Listening:
r14 +17 d17
r23 +0B d0B r94 -17 u17 rA3 -0B u0B
r12 +08 d08
r92 -08 u08
r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C
r10 +14 d14
r90 -14 u14
r16 +18 d18
r17 +0C d0C r96 -18 u18
r97 -0C u0C
r2E +06 d06
rAE -06 u06
r25 +0E d0E
rA5 -0E u0E
r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C
r30 +05 d05
r13 +15 d15 rB0 -05 u05
r93 -15 u15
r18 +12 d12
r98 -12 u12 r11 +1A d1A
r91 -1A u1A r31 +11 d11
rB1 -11 u11
r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C r21 +09 d09
rA1 -09 u09
r18 +12 d12
r98 -12 u12 r2D +1B d1B
rAD -1B u1B r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C
r24 +0D d0D
rA4 -0D u0D
r16 +18 d18
r96 -18 u18
r32 +10 d10
rB2 -10 u10
r19 +13 d13
r99 -13 u13 r1F +16 d16
r9F -16 u16 r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C r18 +12 d12
r98 -12 u12
r2F +19 d19
r12 +08 d08
rAF -19 u19 r13 +15 d15 r92 -08 u08
r93 -15 u15
r39 +2C d2C
r14 +17 d17 rB9 -2C u2C r23 +0B d0B r94 -17 u17 rA3 -0B u0B
r12 +08 d08
r92 -08 u08
r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C
r26 +0F d0F
rA6 -0F u0F
r1E +04 d04
r9E -04 u04
r2C +1D d1D
rAC -1D u1D
r15 +1C d1C
r95 -1C u1C
r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C
r20 +07 d07
rA0 -07 u07
r18 +12 d12
r98 -12 u12 r22 +0A d0A
rA2 -0A u0A
r1D +E0 dE0
r2E +06 d06
rAE -06 u06
r9D -E0 uE0
My keyboard looks like it's identical to yours, except it's not branded. I'm guessing it's XT because it's XT layout and doesn't work over a PS/2 converter at all.

coolrainbow20

21 Apr 2021, 21:15

Chyros wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 19:50
Here's "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog":

Code: Select all

Waiting for device:
Listening:
r14 +17 d17
r23 +0B d0B r94 -17 u17 rA3 -0B u0B
r12 +08 d08
r92 -08 u08
r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C
r10 +14 d14
r90 -14 u14
r16 +18 d18
r17 +0C d0C r96 -18 u18
r97 -0C u0C
r2E +06 d06
rAE -06 u06
r25 +0E d0E
rA5 -0E u0E
r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C
r30 +05 d05
r13 +15 d15 rB0 -05 u05
r93 -15 u15
r18 +12 d12
r98 -12 u12 r11 +1A d1A
r91 -1A u1A r31 +11 d11
rB1 -11 u11
r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C r21 +09 d09
rA1 -09 u09
r18 +12 d12
r98 -12 u12 r2D +1B d1B
rAD -1B u1B r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C
r24 +0D d0D
rA4 -0D u0D
r16 +18 d18
r96 -18 u18
r32 +10 d10
rB2 -10 u10
r19 +13 d13
r99 -13 u13 r1F +16 d16
r9F -16 u16 r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C r18 +12 d12
r98 -12 u12
r2F +19 d19
r12 +08 d08
rAF -19 u19 r13 +15 d15 r92 -08 u08
r93 -15 u15
r39 +2C d2C
r14 +17 d17 rB9 -2C u2C r23 +0B d0B r94 -17 u17 rA3 -0B u0B
r12 +08 d08
r92 -08 u08
r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C
r26 +0F d0F
rA6 -0F u0F
r1E +04 d04
r9E -04 u04
r2C +1D d1D
rAC -1D u1D
r15 +1C d1C
r95 -1C u1C
r39 +2C d2C
rB9 -2C u2C
r20 +07 d07
rA0 -07 u07
r18 +12 d12
r98 -12 u12 r22 +0A d0A
rA2 -0A u0A
r1D +E0 dE0
r2E +06 d06
rAE -06 u06
r9D -E0 uE0
My keyboard looks like it's identical to yours, except it's not branded. I'm guessing it's XT because it's XT layout and doesn't work over a PS/2 converter at all.
Looks ok to me. So mine seems to have an error then. Maybe I could re-flash the firmware and see if it helps.

coolrainbow20

22 Apr 2021, 21:55

Here is even more information about XT keyboards in general: https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wik ... hard-reset

From what I've read there, I have the following problem: "0xFF indicates Overrun Error in scan code set 1".

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