Could anyone tell me a bit more about these two numpads?

Eragaurd

11 May 2021, 23:36

I saw these: https://imgur.com/a/tTZ2Ajm on an auction, and I'm wondering if anyone could bring some info about their usecase, switches etc. Any help is appreciated!
Attachments
412837284_f571a51a-58e6-45a5-b393-b1609c77f993.jpg
412837284_f571a51a-58e6-45a5-b393-b1609c77f993.jpg (467.46 KiB) Viewed 1033 times

kelvinhall05

12 May 2021, 00:05

Not sure what they're from but it's Fujitsu Leafsprings.

Eragaurd

12 May 2021, 00:09

Ah, good to know. I've heard that they are quite smooth and nice.

kelvinhall05

12 May 2021, 00:16

Eragaurd wrote:
12 May 2021, 00:09
Ah, good to know. I've heard that they are quite smooth and nice.
They aren't. The weighting sucks ass and they aren't as exceptionally smooth as Chyros (and subsequently the entire vint keeb community) jerks them off to be. I would pick linear Alps or basically any modern linear over these in a heartbeat, and I haven't even tried other vint linears like Microswitch.

ntv242ver2

12 May 2021, 00:24

Shame they are missing the case, they look really cool

Eragaurd

12 May 2021, 00:31

ntv242ver2 wrote:
12 May 2021, 00:24
Shame they are missing the case, they look really cool
I have a feeling that they were used in some larger installation at some point. If I'm really lucky they might even be NOS replacement modules or something like that.

4_404

12 May 2021, 08:10

kelvinhall05 wrote:
12 May 2021, 00:16
Eragaurd wrote:
12 May 2021, 00:09
Ah, good to know. I've heard that they are quite smooth and nice.
They aren't. The weighting sucks ass and they aren't as exceptionally smooth as Chyros (and subsequently the entire vint keeb community) jerks them off to be. I would pick linear Alps or basically any modern linear over these in a heartbeat, and I haven't even tried other vint linears like Microswitch.
It's almost as if keyfeel is subjective and dependant on condition or something. The clicky versions are one of my favorite switches, and the weighting is one of the best things about them. I think the weighting makes these feel smoother than they are, but all of the boards I have had have been pretty good, with the cleanest being one of the smoother feeling switches I've tried (much, much better than the dirty Microswitch hall effects that I have). One of them had a lot of binding on off centre key presses though, which was strange as it wasn't scratchy at all on straight vertical presses. I fixed this with a bit of lube and it's lovely to type on now. I don't like the linear version nearly as much, and I can't put my finger on why, but (Warning! - sweeping generalisation incoming) they're better than SKCC alps.

User avatar
Bjerrk

12 May 2021, 08:39

4_404 wrote:
12 May 2021, 08:10
kelvinhall05 wrote:
12 May 2021, 00:16
Eragaurd wrote:
12 May 2021, 00:09
Ah, good to know. I've heard that they are quite smooth and nice.
They aren't. The weighting sucks ass and they aren't as exceptionally smooth as Chyros (and subsequently the entire vint keeb community) jerks them off to be.
It's almost as if keyfeel is subjective and dependant on condition or something.
Dude, I think you may be on to something!

But nah, on second thought, let's just blame Chyros, and then go on to insult the vintage keyboard community at large. It's the cool thing to do.

kelvinhall05

12 May 2021, 13:27

4_404 wrote:
12 May 2021, 08:10
kelvinhall05 wrote:
12 May 2021, 00:16
Eragaurd wrote:
12 May 2021, 00:09
Ah, good to know. I've heard that they are quite smooth and nice.
They aren't. The weighting sucks ass and they aren't as exceptionally smooth as Chyros (and subsequently the entire vint keeb community) jerks them off to be. I would pick linear Alps or basically any modern linear over these in a heartbeat, and I haven't even tried other vint linears like Microswitch.
It's almost as if keyfeel is subjective and dependant on condition or something. The clicky versions are one of my favorite switches, and the weighting is one of the best things about them. I think the weighting makes these feel smoother than they are, but all of the boards I have had have been pretty good, with the cleanest being one of the smoother feeling switches I've tried (much, much better than the dirty Microswitch hall effects that I have). One of them had a lot of binding on off centre key presses though, which was strange as it wasn't scratchy at all on straight vertical presses. I fixed this with a bit of lube and it's lovely to type on now. I don't like the linear version nearly as much, and I can't put my finger on why, but (Warning! - sweeping generalisation incoming) they're better than SKCC alps.
That's a lot of words for "the linear sucks, I agree with you" lol

Have not tried SKCC yet so can't comment on that.

kelvinhall05

12 May 2021, 13:34

Bjerrk wrote:
12 May 2021, 08:39
4_404 wrote:
12 May 2021, 08:10
kelvinhall05 wrote:
12 May 2021, 00:16


They aren't. The weighting sucks ass and they aren't as exceptionally smooth as Chyros (and subsequently the entire vint keeb community) jerks them off to be.
It's almost as if keyfeel is subjective and dependant on condition or something.
Dude, I think you may be on to something!

But nah, on second thought, let's just blame Chyros, and then go on to insult the vintage keyboard community at large. It's the cool thing to do.
If you took my comment as an insult then that's on you. I find that mindlessly following the popular opinion is a huge problem in the keyboard community and it's a really stupid thing to do. All but a couple people I've talked to who have nice, clean FLS boards dislike them for the same reasons I do: weird weighting/force curve and not as exceptionally smooth as everyone says they are. They aren't scratchy, but my NOS SKCL Greens were just as smooth. Hell, the Matias I bought recently were this smooth. And I have a NOS FLS board to compare them to!

Also, you're seriously trying to claim that liking a smoother switch is "subjective"? I really don't think anyone has a preference for scratchier switches...

Findecanor

12 May 2021, 13:56

There were several generations of Fujitsu leaf springs. I think I've only tried a type that bound badly on off-centre key presses but I've been told that there are other variants that are smoother.

4_404

12 May 2021, 16:25

kelvinhall05 wrote:
12 May 2021, 13:27
4_404 wrote:
12 May 2021, 08:10

It's almost as if keyfeel is subjective and dependant on condition or something. The clicky versions are one of my favorite switches, and the weighting is one of the best things about them. I think the weighting makes these feel smoother than they are, but all of the boards I have had have been pretty good, with the cleanest being one of the smoother feeling switches I've tried (much, much better than the dirty Microswitch hall effects that I have). One of them had a lot of binding on off centre key presses though, which was strange as it wasn't scratchy at all on straight vertical presses. I fixed this with a bit of lube and it's lovely to type on now. I don't like the linear version nearly as much, and I can't put my finger on why, but (Warning! - sweeping generalisation incoming) they're better than SKCC alps.
That's a lot of words for "the linear sucks, I agree with you" lol

Have not tried SKCC yet so can't comment on that.
In my opinion, the linears do not suck. I like the clicky ones a lot more, but I like the linear FLS is still a good switch, and I prefer it to most of the MX style linear switches I've tried, including 'vint blacks' so many rave about. I will agree that I prefer SKCL green, and I haven't even tried NOS greens, but that doesn't mean they're bad.
kelvinhall05 wrote:
12 May 2021, 13:27
The weighting sucks ass
When I said subjective, I was referring to this, and the overall opinion of the switch. I think the linear is an above average switch, and the clicky is exceptional, and I really like the weighting of both.You don't like them, but I do - subjective.
kelvinhall05 wrote:
12 May 2021, 13:34
I find that mindlessly following the popular opinion is a huge problem in the keyboard community and it's a really stupid thing to do.
You seem to have an issue with the gross exaggeration, hyperbole, objectivity and superlatives that are thrown around so often in this subjective hobby, and the people that take them as gospel. Frankly, so do I. I hate people asking 'is this a good keyboard?', and I hate even more when people answer yes/no. All this stuff is just drama, and inevitably results in more drama when people disagree with it.

'Blue alps sound the best?' I prefer clicky space invaders. 'Microswitch hall effect switches are super smooth.' Mine aren't. 'Italic Apple legends look terrible.' Do they? 'Fujitsu leaf spring weighting sucks ass!' Damn, someone should have told me before I went out and started liking it. I love the look of the space cadet, but I think some stupid Philips keyboard looks even better. There's even old Geekhack threads saying blue alps are awful. Are they great switches (when clean)? Yes. Do they deserve the hype and price people pay? I certainly don't think so.

The most disappointment time I've ever had trying keyboards was with 'terrible' switches and finding they were nowhere near as bad as I was lead to believe. I was afraid of trying Cherry MY for fear my hands would fall off, but alas, they're just another boring linear (like many 80s linear switches). Maybe I have terrible tastes or am just a fool, but I still have my hands...

No one else can tell you if you are going to like a keyboard - if it is interesting and you can afford it and have space for it, buy it and find out.

Everyone wants a different look, feel and sound from their keyboards, and wants to use them in a different way. Some people don't even want to use their keyboard, they're just happy to have a pretty thing sitting on a shelf. Some people must have PBT keycaps, because pad printing would wear off, even though they only type on the keyboard twice a year.

By all means check out 'reviews' first, but look to them for semi-objective stuff like build quality and switch weighting, not what the reviewer's favorite switch is. Don't drop a ton of money based solely on someone else's opinion, and don't pass on an interesting keyboard just because someone online said it's bad. For this reason, I find the informative write ups on DT to be vastly superior to any 'review', especially in video format, which is ultimately more entertainment than sharing of facts. Of course I'm happy that 'reviews' exist, as they extend all this info to a lot of new audiences, but give me a good wiki entry or photo rich DT post over a YouTube video any day of the week. Really, it just comes down to how people take in information though, and nobody can or should tell others how to do that, nor throw around opinions like they're facts.

Apologies for the stupid off topic essay-rant, and for furthering the drama, but all these arguments over opinions and what other people like are pretty counter intuitive to the Deskthority mission of collecting and spreading information. I want to see photos and explanation of new discoveries, pretty keyboards and restorations, not over the top exaggerations like 'buckling springs are the greatest switches in the world' or 'FLS sucks ass'.

MMcM

12 May 2021, 16:28

What does that icon mean? Don't forget to ground yourself?

User avatar
Bjerrk

12 May 2021, 16:34

kelvinhall05 wrote:
12 May 2021, 13:34
If you took my comment as an insult then that's on you.
Of course not. But just as it is silly to mindlessly follow the popular opinion, it is equally silly to say "You're all just jerkwads, 'cos I say these switches are bad". There's not much statistical power in a N=1 sample ;)
Furthermore, it just contributes to the "hyperbole", as 4_404 so nicely put it.
All but a couple people I've talked to who have nice, clean FLS boards dislike them for the same reasons I do: weird weighting/force curve and not as exceptionally smooth as everyone says they are.
That elaboration improves things a bit :P
Also, you're seriously trying to claim that liking a smoother switch is "subjective"? I really don't think anyone has a preference for scratchier switches...
I don't think I ever said that? But I did (obviously) agree with the "dependent on conditioning" part.

As for scratchiness, it's absolutely objective, and something it would be interesting to measure. In principle, it should be possible by quantifying the noise in the force curve (but it is of course important to be aware that it is separate from e.g. the stick/slip behaviour which can result from excessive static friction).

John Doe

12 May 2021, 16:52

Bit off topic.

As kinda of weirdo who has like 20+ fujitsu leaf spring kbs I 99% sure they're linear 3rd fls but not clicky version(I have at least 6 different models with clicky fls iirc, so will be big surprised if im wrong for the linear guess).

I do enjoy them, but you could have your thoughts ofc. :D

Eragaurd

12 May 2021, 18:37

John Doe wrote:
12 May 2021, 16:52
Bit off topic.

As kinda of weirdo who has like 20+ fujitsu leaf spring kbs I 99% sure they're linear 3rd fls but not clicky version(I have at least 6 different models with clicky fls iirc, so will be big surprised if im wrong for the linear guess).

I do enjoy them, but you could have your thoughts ofc. :D
My plan is to try and convert them/ one of them to usb and use it as a numpad with the extra row as macros. Any ideas how I would go about doing that? I'm guessing that I will have to buy a modern controller and solder it in with some wires, but you're the expert :D

kelvinhall05

12 May 2021, 19:21

Eragaurd wrote:
12 May 2021, 18:37
John Doe wrote:
12 May 2021, 16:52
Bit off topic.

As kinda of weirdo who has like 20+ fujitsu leaf spring kbs I 99% sure they're linear 3rd fls but not clicky version(I have at least 6 different models with clicky fls iirc, so will be big surprised if im wrong for the linear guess).

I do enjoy them, but you could have your thoughts ofc. :D
My plan is to try and convert them/ one of them to usb and use it as a numpad with the extra row as macros. Any ideas how I would go about doing that? I'm guessing that I will have to buy a modern controller and solder it in with some wires, but you're the expert :D
It would be really simple with how small of a matrix it is. All the rows (or columns, forget which) will go through that resistor pack in the bottom right of the PCB (on the part above the keys, anyway), I'm guessing M1 or M2 is a demux but either way you would just solder your Pro Micro or Teensy to those pads, throw together a QMK config, easy.

MMcM

13 May 2021, 01:50

M1 is a BCD-to-decimal decoder and M2 is a mux. I don't see a microcontroller here, so I guess underneath the tan thingy is a connector with the 4 BCD lines and 3 select lines. Keep those and you'll only need 7 GPIOs instead of 11.

John Doe

13 May 2021, 02:03

Eragaurd wrote:
12 May 2021, 18:37
My plan is to try and convert them/ one of them to usb and use it as a numpad with the extra row as macros. Any ideas how I would go about doing that? I'm guessing that I will have to buy a modern controller and solder it in with some wires, but you're the expert :D
Will update this reply couple hours later, being outside at high speed train and suffering from bad 4G signal. :evil:

Finally touched desktop.

kelvin and MMcM are great guys, they have clued correct direction, and you could follow what they suggested to save the pad definitely.

I'd say a little bit more.
Spoiler:
First of the most import steps, at least for me, is to figure out the matrix of keys and define the orders for rows&cols, normally you could directly check out the resistor packs to get the cols(will be one short than the pins' counts of the resitors packs), and rows shall be connected to the controller directly or thru a BCD-to-decimal decoder, just like MMcM pointed out. Then you have two choices:

First is to visit the qmk project and apply for the firmware according to the matrix rows/cols sequence and the pins of teensy/promicro you plan to use, then it's desoldering jobs with several jumpers, flash the firmware, done; Recommend this if it's your first project.

Second option is you could reuse the logic chips on the pcb to scan the matrix, which means you'll have to do some reverse engineering jobs to understand how the original controller works. In this pad, if M1 indeed is an decoder, you should read its datasheet and find out which pins are possibly connected to matrix being used as rows and which in the rest others connected to the missing controller as enables, and ofc you should use them in your teensy as new controller. Cols are pretty similar except its an demux(yeah, if M2 indeed is mux), means you should select one of the pins data at one time point. To understand its datasheet is first to do aswell, then check the working pins out and wire up them to teensy like previous step. In this way you have to do some programming jobs and compile by yourself to get the hex file, good point is you could save the jumpers and make it little bit elegant(ignore me if you disagree :D ).

Seems the pads dont have the original controllers so you could just add an teensy to make one. Btw, are cases missing or just unshowed in the pic?

I have some photos in my pc so I could share some of them if you care, all are with second method based on hasu's tmk project. Big thanks to hasu :D
Spoiler:
1191620890113_.pic.jpg
1191620890113_.pic.jpg (120.96 KiB) Viewed 579 times
1201620890183_.pic.jpg
1201620890183_.pic.jpg (95.92 KiB) Viewed 579 times
1211620890217_.pic.jpg
1211620890217_.pic.jpg (73.86 KiB) Viewed 579 times
1221620890266_.pic.jpg
1221620890266_.pic.jpg (95.58 KiB) Viewed 579 times
1231620890339_.pic_hd.jpg
1231620890339_.pic_hd.jpg (284.85 KiB) Viewed 579 times
1241620890384_.pic.jpg
1241620890384_.pic.jpg (138.12 KiB) Viewed 579 times
1251620890419_.pic.jpg
1251620890419_.pic.jpg (236.84 KiB) Viewed 579 times
1261620890480_.pic.jpg
1261620890480_.pic.jpg (230.34 KiB) Viewed 579 times
1271620890548_.pic.jpg
1271620890548_.pic.jpg (249.59 KiB) Viewed 579 times
Correct me if im wrong somewhere.

Eragaurd

13 May 2021, 10:26

John Doe wrote:
13 May 2021, 02:03
Eragaurd wrote:
12 May 2021, 18:37
My plan is to try and convert them/ one of them to usb and use it as a numpad with the extra row as macros. Any ideas how I would go about doing that? I'm guessing that I will have to buy a modern controller and solder it in with some wires, but you're the expert :D
Will update this reply couple hours later, being outside at high speed train and suffering from bad 4G signal. :evil:

Finally touched desktop.

kelvin and MMcM are great guys, they have clued correct direction, and you could follow what they suggested to save the pad definitely.

I'd say a little bit more.
Spoiler:
First of the most import steps, at least for me, is to figure out the matrix of keys and define the orders for rows&cols, normally you could directly check out the resistor packs to get the cols(will be one short than the pins' counts of the resitors packs), and rows shall be connected to the controller directly or thru a BCD-to-decimal decoder, just like MMcM pointed out. Then you have two choices:

First is to visit the qmk project and apply for the firmware according to the matrix rows/cols sequence and the pins of teensy/promicro you plan to use, then it's desoldering jobs with several jumpers, flash the firmware, done; Recommend this if it's your first project.

Second option is you could reuse the logic chips on the pcb to scan the matrix, which means you'll have to do some reverse engineering jobs to understand how the original controller works. In this pad, if M1 indeed is an decoder, you should read its datasheet and find out which pins are possibly connected to matrix being used as rows and which in the rest others connected to the missing controller as enables, and ofc you should use them in your teensy as new controller. Cols are pretty similar except its an demux(yeah, if M2 indeed is mux), means you should select one of the pins data at one time point. To understand its datasheet is first to do aswell, then check the working pins out and wire up them to teensy like previous step. In this way you have to do some programming jobs and compile by yourself to get the hex file, good point is you could save the jumpers and make it little bit elegant(ignore me if you disagree :D ).

Seems the pads dont have the original controllers so you could just add an teensy to make one. Btw, are cases missing or just unshowed in the pic?

I have some photos in my pc so I could share some of them if you care, all are with second method based on hasu's tmk project. Big thanks to hasu :D
Spoiler:
1191620890113_.pic.jpg
1201620890183_.pic.jpg
1211620890217_.pic.jpg
1221620890266_.pic.jpg
1231620890339_.pic_hd.jpg
1241620890384_.pic.jpg
1251620890419_.pic.jpg
1261620890480_.pic.jpg
1271620890548_.pic.jpg
Correct me if im wrong somewhere.
Here is another picture (that I probably should have posted earlier) that might help https://imgur.com/a/BmG0Hx3

User avatar
Muirium
µ

13 May 2021, 10:34

John Doe wrote:
13 May 2021, 02:03
Second option is you could reuse the logic chips on the pcb to scan the matrix, which means you'll have to do some reverse engineering jobs to understand how the original controller works.
Intriguing. You can actually program QMK to work with multiplexers? How much work is it? And does the web UI still work for tweaking layouts at the end?

I'm often fiddling with mine, when new layout/layer ideas come to me, sometimes years after the hardware side is finished. :D

John Doe

13 May 2021, 11:53

Eragaurd wrote:
13 May 2021, 10:26
Here is another picture (that I probably should have posted earlier) that might help https://imgur.com/a/BmG0Hx3
Yeah, there's definitely no original controller but you could add one.
Muirium wrote:
13 May 2021, 10:34
You can actually program QMK to work with multiplexers?
You could do that to manipulate multiplexer to select cols one by one in TMK, actually it's not about qmk or tmk but it's just related to C language so I think both okay for two projects.
Muirium wrote:
13 May 2021, 10:34
How much work is it?
Not too much, only to modify the read_cols function in the matrix.c file should be enough.
Muirium wrote:
13 May 2021, 10:34
And does the web UI still work for tweaking layouts at the end?
I wish but unfortunately no, as the web API just provide a common modifying method, like direct connecting rows/cols to teensy or whatever. This's reasonable cuz different kbds normally have different logic chips to drive rows and select cols. :D

keyboard Kultist

13 May 2021, 21:11

Bjerrk wrote:
12 May 2021, 08:39
4_404 wrote:
12 May 2021, 08:10
kelvinhall05 wrote:
12 May 2021, 00:16


They aren't. The weighting sucks ass and they aren't as exceptionally smooth as Chyros (and subsequently the entire vint keeb community) jerks them off to be.
It's almost as if keyfeel is subjective and dependant on condition or something.
Dude, I think you may be on to something!

But nah, on second thought, let's just blame Chyros, and then go on to insult the vintage keyboard community at large. It's the cool thing to do.

I blame Chyros!!!!

Well, I blame him for the hundred odd keyboards in my spare room....maybe I'll break out the Tandy 3000 this weekend when I rotate the Wooting 2 out.

BTW any one have a nonfunctional Tandy 3000? I have two of these boards, both in good shape except the case on one fell apart....

User avatar
Lalaland124

13 May 2021, 21:31

keyboard Kultist wrote:
13 May 2021, 21:11
BTW any one have a nonfunctional Tandy 3000? I have two of these boards, both in good shape except the case on one fell apart....
I recently picked up one but after cleaning it, it sounds like you would type on squeaky kids toys, so yeah pretty much nonfunctional :D

Post Reply

Return to “Keyboards”