Post a picture of your ideal keyboard layout!

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Phenix
-p

06 Jan 2017, 00:34

Monarch?

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Brot

06 Jan 2017, 15:02

Phenix wrote: Monarch?
Similar, but my layout has arrow keys :)

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Chyros

06 Jan 2017, 15:17

So that looks like a fairly standard lefty setup with macro keys, right? I see you've replaced the numpad enter key with them too, don't you normally use this key? I really use it constantly =o .

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Brot

06 Jan 2017, 16:48

Chyros wrote: So that looks like a fairly standard lefty setup with macro keys, right? .
Yes
I see you've replaced the numpad enter key with them too, don't you normally use this key? I really use it constantly =o .
I never used the numpad enter during my entire life :D

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Wodan
ISO Advocate

06 Jan 2017, 16:52

Brot wrote: I never used the numpad enter during my entire life :D
But ... it's the best enter ... you can hit it with the thumb of your mouse-hand.

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

06 Jan 2017, 17:03

Brot wrote: I never used the numpad enter during my entire life :D
I do, all the time! Especially on this keyboard... :maverick:

Chicony KB-5591 @ SMK Alps mount "Monterey":

wiki/Chicony_KB-5591
IMGP4451.JPG
IMGP4451.JPG (956.73 KiB) Viewed 2213 times

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Chyros

06 Jan 2017, 17:47

Wodan wrote:
Brot wrote: I never used the numpad enter during my entire life :D
But ... it's the best enter ... you can hit it with the thumb of your mouse-hand.
Exactly, that's what I do too! :D

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keycap

06 Jan 2017, 21:22

Chyros wrote:
Wodan wrote:
Brot wrote: I never used the numpad enter during my entire life :D
But ... it's the best enter ... you can hit it with the thumb of your mouse-hand.
Exactly, that's what I do too! :D
I used to be huge on small layouts, and though I still like my 84-key Alps board, full-size layouts grow on me more every single day. The numpad is just so useful.

Recently I tried using a 60% and I just couldn't get used to it. It's really tedious using function layers in my experience.

I probably have such a different opinion on small layouts compared to back then because I now have a massive "desk", which is more like an extended table :P

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Chyros

07 Jan 2017, 01:00

keycap wrote: I used to be huge on small layouts, and though I still like my 84-key Alps board, full-size layouts grow on me more every single day. The numpad is just so useful.

Recently I tried using a 60% and I just couldn't get used to it. It's really tedious using function layers in my experience.

I probably have such a different opinion on small layouts compared to back then because I now have a massive "desk", which is more like an extended table :P
I've always been vocally not a fan of small-layout keyboards, precisely because of that reason. That said, I've never had a small desk either xD . My desk is my command station, so it had better be roomy! :D

Menuhin

07 Jan 2017, 01:26

keycap wrote: ... though I still like my 84-key Alps board ...
By "84-key Alps board", do you mean 75% board? Do they exist? :oops: (Or are you talking about TKL?)
I like those 75% layout a lot.

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keycap

07 Jan 2017, 02:39

Menuhin wrote:
keycap wrote: ... though I still like my 84-key Alps board ...
By "84-key Alps board", do you mean 75% board? Do they exist? :oops: (Or are you talking about TKL?)
I like those 75% layout a lot.
Yes, a 75% Alps keyboard with genuine, complicated White Alps. It's called the Ortek MKB-84SX. There are a few different models with different switches, iirc the MCK-84FX has Alps clones and the MKB-84FX has Simplified White Alps.
I like mine quite a lot. Had to restore it to get it in a tolerable condition though.

Menuhin

09 Jan 2017, 22:24

First post on this thread.

Image

Inspirations came from: terminal keyboards such as IBM Model F, Sun Type 5c, 75% keyboards such as Noppoo Choc mini, True Fox for the importance of 0.25u separator / blocker.

Note:
  • SpaceFn
    - tap and release R_Space_bar = space
    - holding down the R_Space_bar = temporarily trigger the Fn layer
    (I normally use my left thumb to press the space bar)
  • FnUp = Move up 1 function layer and lock the function layer into that layer
  • Fn0 = return to the default Function layer
May want to add function layer lock & function layer unlock somewhere, but with the SpaceFn layout, it may not be necessary.

Will be a forever work-in-progress...

P.s. It annoys me a lot if the number pad (which I almost never used in my life) stands in the way between my alphanumeric keys and my mouse that I put on the right side of my keyboard. If I would add a number pad (which I doubt), I would add it on the left hand side: perhaps making the Cmd clusters into 3/4 columns and add the number pad as a lockable function layer.
Last edited by Menuhin on 10 Jan 2017, 01:51, edited 9 times in total.

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Nuum

09 Jan 2017, 22:41

Nice! I have a very similar layout in mind since a few days. I would do the bottom row different, with an extra key between the two spacebar halves and slightly different modifier sizes. I also would need the ISO key next to left shift.

If you move your CmdX keys 0.25u to the left the homerow is perfectly centered to the keyboard. ;)

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Phenix
-p

09 Jan 2017, 22:52

Nuum - keep us posted!
for such an layout I would even handwire it..

Menuhin

09 Jan 2017, 23:05

Nuum wrote: Nice! I have a very similar layout in mind since a few days. I would do the bottom row different, with an extra key between the two spacebar halves and slightly different modifier sizes. I also would need the ISO key next to left shift.

If you move your CmdX keys 0.25u to the left the homerow is perfectly centered to the keyboard. ;)
The VE.A is quite close to it.
However, the VE.A lacks those details - the 0.25u blockers at various locations. These blockers help to group keys into clusters and are important to minimize typing mistakes for touch-typists. This idea is inspired by the design decision of the "True Fox" as well as a few Korean keyboards.

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Nuum

10 Jan 2017, 14:59

Here's my take on Menuhins layout:
75% plus.png
75% plus.png (30.33 KiB) Viewed 2058 times
I'll probably build the following one with my (hopefully soon to be here) Round 5 caps, with old angled Cherry M9 switches so the SA profile becomes more of a SS profile. I tried to avoid to stabs as much as possible, also I need a solution for the ISO Enter since my M9 switches have angled stems. Will probably go with ANSI enter and split Backspace there.
75% plus (Round 5).png
75% plus (Round 5).png (79.76 KiB) Viewed 2058 times
75% plus (Round 5) (ANSI).png
75% plus (Round 5) (ANSI).png (77.75 KiB) Viewed 2058 times
(Weird numbered keys on the bottom are there to show the symmetry of the layout, legends/key functions are of course subject to change)

I really love this layout, it let's you keep your mouse near you while having more keys than a TKL keyboard. Also it has a retro vibe which I think fits very well with SA keycaps.

Menuhin

10 Jan 2017, 16:18

Round 5!!!
I'm just *starting* to wait for Round 7... :oops:

I hope I'm alive and healthy, and financially and mentally fit in Germany when the Round 7 caps eventually reach me.
I bought a Tipro especially for them because I also really like their pseudo Space-Cadet caps - some of their POS caps that are featuring in Hyper7 kit. In this layout, 'Launch' and the left cluster fit these POS caps well. Of course, Tipro itself is nice and easy to change the layout.

If you are a perfectionist, then you'll definitely try to build your ISO layout first. I understand how difficult it is to accustom to another layout, it's like you're very used to eating your Abendbrot but then in some situations all bread you can get are those nasty soft white bread...

But how are you going to build such a board?
CNC? barebone with steel plates? Or ... printed?

I highly recommend keeping those 0.5u or 0.25u separators / blockers. In usability studies, it is multiple times faster to reach keys at the very corners of a layout, and it is also faster to reach a cluster as a group. But to reach individual keys of a cluster, those keys at the edge of the cluster will be easier to reach, e.g. the arrow keys in G80-1800 are well designed as a cluster, it is easier to hit the up arrow and the left arrow and right arrow than to hit the down arrow, while it is easier to reach the down arrow than say the '5' key in the number pad of G80-1800.

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Nuum

10 Jan 2017, 17:27

I would build it from a bend steel/alu plate, similar to those Infinity "cases" and handwire it. I'm not sure about ISO because I anyway wanted to try an ISO-HHKB hybrid like that last layout I posted. I'll look into incorporating a small gap towards the arrow keys, thanks for the tip!

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zslane

16 Jan 2017, 20:32

Okay, here's another stab at this:
custom_ansi_layout_v02.jpg
custom_ansi_layout_v02.jpg (143.7 KiB) Viewed 1911 times
Notes

I am using Round 6 colors to illustrate functional subsets:
  • White keys generate visible ASCII characters.
  • Black keys generate ASCII whitespace characters.
  • Red keys remove characters.
  • Blue keys configure or activate programmable function layers (primarily for use with the 60% variant).
  • Gray keys are for chording modifiers, cursor navigation, math operations, and special functions.
The numpad is based on ideas gathered from another thread. It was cogently pointed out that with a navcluster present, there is no need to duplicate navigation functions on the numpad, and so NUM LOCK can be freed up for something more useful like TAB. And by reducing the + key to 1u and putting the - key above it, we free up a space for another BACKSPACE key, which can be really handy if you're doing a lot of numerical input.

Having moved the DELETE key underneath the BACKSPACE key, I used its old location for an UNDO/REDO key. I couldn't figure out what function to assign to the key normally legended as "Scroll Lock," so I put a general purpose icon on it as a sort of user-defined placeholder key. I am also not sure what I would want most above the numpad so I just put keys there that I thought would be useful when working in a spreadsheet. Lastly, even though I don't often have use for it, I like the functionality of the ALT-GR key (as used with the "US International" layout). It could be a MENU or META key instead, I guess, but I don't really use the MENU key, whereas I might actually use ALT-GR to generate diacritics now and then.
Last edited by zslane on 17 Jan 2017, 05:05, edited 5 times in total.

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stuplarosa
AltGr

16 Jan 2017, 20:38

I really like the idea of using color for functional subset!

Menuhin

16 Jan 2017, 20:52

zslane wrote: Okay, here's another stab at this:
custom_ansi_layout_v02.jpg
Notes

I am using Round 6 colors to illustrate functional subsets:
  • White keys generate visible ASCII characters.
  • Black keys generate ASCII whitespace characters.
  • Red keys remove characters.
  • Blue keys configure or activate programmable function layers (primarily for use with the 60% variant).
  • Gray keys are for chording modifiers, cursor navigation, math operations, and special functions.
Having moved the DELETE key underneath the BACKSPACE key, I used its old location for an UNDO/REDO key. I couldn't figure out what function to assign to the key normally legended as "Scroll Lock," so I put a general purpose icon on it as a sort of user-defined placeholder key. I am also not sure what I would want most above the numpad so I just put keys there that I thought would be useful when working in a spreadsheet. Lastly, even though I don't often have use for it, I like the functionality of the ALT-GR key (as used with the "US International" layout). It could be a MENU or META key instead, I guess, but I don't really use the MENU key, whereas I might actually use ALT-GR to generate diacritics now and then.
I really like the very subtle but crucial changes you made in the 60% area! :)
I think today's 60% should look like this instead.
Reducing the Tab from 1.5 to 1.25, CapsLock 1.75 (now FN) to 1.5, and L_Shift 2.25 to 1.75 give enough space for the Backslash to move from R2 to R4. I think no PCB in the market support this "reduced staggering" arrangement.
But does HHKB JP have some similar?

I also like the color theme - what inspires you to group Enter with Tab?
FN there at CapsLock totally makes sense for modern computing. I still prefer an option for Control over there.

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zslane

16 Jan 2017, 20:58

Menuhin wrote: I also like the color theme - what inspires you to group Enter with Tab?
As mentioned, the black keys generate ASCII whitespace characters. The RETURN/ENTER keys generate an ASCII carriage return character, while the TAB key generates an ASCII tab character, both of which are considered whitespace.
FN there at CapsLock totally makes sense for modern computing. I still prefer an option for Control over there.
That option exists in many versions of firmware. A 1.25u FN keycap and a 1.5u CTRL keycap would take care of the swap. But I wasn't proposing a keycap set, only a layout.

Menuhin

16 Jan 2017, 21:16

@zslane
Forgot to "read the manual" first... :oops:
It's an elegant grouping. Thanks for your answer.

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Hypersphere

16 Jan 2017, 21:51

keycap wrote:
Menuhin wrote:
keycap wrote: ... though I still like my 84-key Alps board ...
By "84-key Alps board", do you mean 75% board? Do they exist? :oops: (Or are you talking about TKL?)
I like those 75% layout a lot.
Yes, a 75% Alps keyboard with genuine, complicated White Alps. It's called the Ortek MKB-84SX. There are a few different models with different switches, iirc the MCK-84FX has Alps clones and the MKB-84FX has Simplified White Alps.
I like mine quite a lot. Had to restore it to get it in a tolerable condition though.
I once had several 84-key (75%) boards, including one with SKCM White Alps. The sound and feel was great, but being a fan of the HHKB, I could never get accustomed to the 75% layout. My preference for form factor is 60% > TKL > Full-size, and for layout, HHKB. Whenever possible, I remap my TKL and Full-size boards to something as close as possible to the HHKB layout. This renders most of the keys redundant, but sometimes it is convenient to have a choice of how to move a cursor or activate a function. The 84-key/75% boards seem like a nice idea, but for me, they occupy the twilight zone of layouts.

My love for the 60% form factor is not all about saving space per se. I have a large desk/worktable. It is more a matter of symmetry -- being able to center the keyboard under my center monitor (3-monitor configuration) and to have the mouse within easier reach than it is with TKL or full-size.

Aesthetically, especially when showcasing an SA-profile spherical-top keycap set, I prefer a full-size board to a TKL. In addition, my recent infatuation with Alps has brought me back to using full-size boards.

Overall, though, for both form and function, I still return to my trusty HHKB (lubed and silenced, and decked out with a custom blend of caps to delineate functional areas -- even if this isn't really needed):
hhkb-bwr125a1.jpg
hhkb-bwr125a1.jpg (179.79 KiB) Viewed 1980 times

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zslane

17 Jan 2017, 02:16

I updated my previous render: the INS/OVR key has been replaced by a REDO key.

I find that I never use the INS key to toggle between insert mode and overwrite mode. Moreover, it is the only key on the keyboard that is a toggle for something that is not tracked by the keyboard itself. It is tracked/used strictly at the application level, if it is tracked/used at all. Since I already put UNDO on my layout, I figured I might as well put REDO on there as well.

Menuhin

17 Jan 2017, 13:42

Hypersphere wrote:
...

My love for the 60% form factor is not all about saving space per se. I have a large desk/worktable. It is more a matter of symmetry -- being able to center the keyboard under my center monitor (3-monitor configuration) and to have the mouse within easier reach than it is with TKL or full-size.

...
hhkb-bwr125a1.jpg
Good to have a peek at Hypersphere's HHKB.
3 sets of key caps to achieve this clean and articulated look.

I went with HHKB instead of HHKB JP (I like its arrow keys!) because of its symmetrical aesthetics. I do miss the nav keys when I'm outside of Emacs / vi or the shell. By placing a full size or TKL keyboard so that the homing keys squarely face the monitor, even the TKL will be 'sticking' out on the right hand side.

The default arrow keys setting requires movement of 3 columns to the right. And 2 fingers instead of 3 fingers usage on nav keys. It could be better. (Of course we have Hasu's controller)

Thought not totally symmetrical, this 60% layout recently caught my eye.

Image

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//gainsborough
ALPSの日常

03 Apr 2017, 08:20

Image

Does a layout like this exist? It should! =)

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Daniel Beardsmore

03 Apr 2017, 09:27

I'd swap the two sides, so that at least one side remains consistent with other keyboards. You'd also get the mouse one key nearer (assuming you have it on the right — I have it on the left at work and on the right at home).

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//gainsborough
ALPSの日常

03 Apr 2017, 09:33

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: I'd swap the two sides, so that at least one side remains consistent with other keyboards. You'd also get the mouse one key nearer (assuming you have it on the right — I have it on the left at work and on the right at home).
I prefer the layout I posted, but I'd be fine with what you're describing as well. Does a layout like that exist on any existing keyboard?

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Daniel Beardsmore

03 Apr 2017, 09:35

I can't say for certain that I've never seen it. I only know that you can accomplish it with the [wiki]Datadesk Switchboard[/wiki].

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