Post a picture of your ideal keyboard layout!

Gampela

14 Nov 2018, 19:51

I've been thinking about something similar to the above. Also recently came up with this:

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Muirium
µ

14 Nov 2018, 19:53

That's a reasonable one. I like the all round consistency.

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ThePillenwerfer

14 Nov 2018, 20:01

I'm expecting the arrival of one as featured in Gampela's post any day now. Sadly it'll have dead sea creatures for switches.

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Big Bricced

14 Nov 2018, 20:23

Basically just the normal/standard 87-key layout but with the f** row/keys compacted together and just right in front of the row with the number keys.

Gampela

14 Nov 2018, 21:00

Muirium wrote: That's a reasonable one. I like the all round consistency.
Something like this might very well exist already but my thought process behind this layout:
  • I've always thought 60% keyboards look a bit silly with their wide aspect ratio (15u wide / 5u tall = 3), this is even worse for fullsized and 65% keyboards. Tenkeyless' proportions look much more pleasing to my eye (roughly 18.5u / 6.5u = 2.85). For this keyboard it is 16u / 6.25u = 2.56. Now this all can be adjusted with bezels so I'm not sure why I'm rambling here, just wanted to put it out there I guess. Other things, like HHKB's corner blocks also help with this, which makes it look less like a candybar.
  • I use function keys quite a lot so the top row is important for me. Numpad not so much.
  • Those gaps between every 4th function key are also very important so that I can press them easily without looking. Normal 75% is no for me.
  • For the longest time that one gap on the bottom row between arrow keys and mods looked very odd to me. Now I've grown to like it for some reason. That gap also helps finding arrow keys without looking.
  • With this layout, all of those horizontal gaps are 0.5u wide so I guess the consistency makes it more aesthetic?
  • Still not quite sure if I want normal backspace or similar to HHKB
ThePillenwerfer wrote: I'm expecting the arrival of one as featured in Gampela's post any day now. Sadly it'll have dead sea creatures for switches.
Not sure what you mean. Are you talking about Plum 84?

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ThePillenwerfer

14 Nov 2018, 21:31

This what I've bought — sorry about the picture but it's the best I can do until I get hold of it:—
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Dingster

14 Nov 2018, 21:34

ThePillenwerfer wrote: This what I've bought — sorry about the picture but it's the best I can do until I get hold of it:—
s-l1600.jpg
Looks like standard 75% (pic for reference, not mine)
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depletedvespene

14 Nov 2018, 21:39

Gampela wrote: ………
  • I use function keys quite a lot so the top row is important for me. Numpad not so much.
  • Those gaps between every 4th function key are also very important so that I can press them easily without looking. Normal 75% is no for me.
  • For the longest time that one gap on the bottom row between arrow keys and mods looked very odd to me. Now I've grown to like it for some reason. That gap also helps finding arrow keys without looking.
  • With this layout, all of those horizontal gaps are 0.5u wide so I guess the consistency makes it more aesthetic?
  • Still not quite sure if I want normal backspace or similar to HHKB
If you choose a HHKB-style backspace key, you should put Ins the '/* key and Del in the 1U keys right above it (in the space that normally holds the 2U backspace key). This frees the isolated 1U key on the top right corner, which you can make it into an Fn key that will allow you to map PrtSrc, Pause, the Lock keys and other things as well, which in turn frees the Fn you have on the bottom row to be RCtrl again.

Your mileage may vary, so take my comment with a grain of salt and a spoonful of sugar, etcetera.
Last edited by depletedvespene on 14 Nov 2018, 21:53, edited 2 times in total.

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Muirium
µ

14 Nov 2018, 21:42

Dingster wrote: Looks like standard 75% (pic for reference, not mine)
True, it's conservative. But separating the F-keys into classic 4 key blocks, like the Model M, does make quite the visual difference; and I bet makes finding F10 (or what have you) much quicker and surer. That was the point of IBM's blocks, after all, even colouring the groups alternately to make them more apparent. I approve. Indeed, if you're going to have F-keys, I insist on it!

Gampela

14 Nov 2018, 22:04

depletedvespene wrote:
If you choose a HHKB-style backspace key, you should put Ins the #/' key and Del in the 1U keys right above it (in the space that normally holds the 2U backspace key). This frees the isolated 1U key on the top right corner, which you can make it into an Fn key that will allow you to map PrtSrc, Pause, the Lock keys and other things as well.

Your mileage may vary, so take my comment with a grain of salt and a spoonful of sugar, etcetera.
I dunno, personally I feel like the Delete key deserves its placement in the top most right corner. I've already got used to Fn key being on the bottom row next to arrow keys. In that location it can easily be pressed with either thumb. AltGr is really the the only mod I need right of spacebar. Media keys can be accessed from F5-F12 keys within function layer. Insert would probably go under Fn + Del. Rest as you said would probably go to the right most column behind Fn layer, PrintScr really being the only one I use. No idea what I want to be put to the key above backspace, maybe CapsLock key (as you can see I've got two control keys on the left :D my muscle memory not being very precise.

Edit. On second thought CapsLock key there might not be the best solution, I still sometimes hit those keys when I want to use backspace. I probably should just stick to the original backspace location. But I can't help myself, I just love the symmetry that HHKB layout brings :)

Menuhin

14 Nov 2018, 22:39

@Gampela

That is about right in how I want my 75% to be!

Gampela

14 Nov 2018, 22:43

A bit of iteration.. Can't decide on bottom row.

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davkol

14 Nov 2018, 22:52

That's basically my Noppoo Choc Mini without the right Control key and with spacing between F-key groups, neither of which I would consider to be an improvement, but hey, it's still the atrocious staggered layout to begin with anyway.

Twidget

15 Nov 2018, 02:38

This is what I think the ideal gaming keyboard would be like. I am still working on the layout so suggestions would be helpful.

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Lanrefni

15 Nov 2018, 09:09

My BFO-9000 layout-

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Works very well for me,pretty sure others would find it a problem.

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Elrick

15 Nov 2018, 09:49

Gampela wrote: A bit of iteration.. Can't decide on bottom row.

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Onya ;) .

Not a bad layout for a small keyboard (ignoring the 60% stuff - way too small for me).

Findecanor

15 Nov 2018, 10:34

ThePillenwerfer wrote: This what I've bought — sorry about the picture but it's the best I can do until I get hold of it:—
s-l1600.jpg
Hmm.. ISO left Shift and \, but ANSI Enter. :)
(I do recognise that it is UK layout and not US English)
Twidget wrote: This is what I think the ideal gaming keyboard would be like. I am still working on the layout so suggestions would be helpful.
Interesting... Unlike many "left-handed" keyboards, you also have Backspace close to the arrow-keys, which I think is a good idea for editing. I'm not sure that 1×2 keys are actually necessary: you would use those as thumbkeys, right?
I think I would have chosen home/end/pgup/pgdn in corners around the arrows like on a numeric keypad with Num Lock off.

andrea-i

15 Nov 2018, 11:03

I'm obsessed with a variation of the F77 layout, compatible with any standard TKL keycap set.
industrial-standard-2.png
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Scarpia

15 Nov 2018, 17:02

Gampela wrote: A bit of iteration.. Can't decide on bottom row.

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That is a lovely layout, really - and I love that there are solid reasons for every design choice. The only thing that would potentially bother me is that the enter and backspace keys are harder to locate without looking since they are ‘behind’ the column of 1u nav keys on the right.

Mind you, I don’t have a nice and clean solution that combines all the benefits of your layout with easy locations of those keys, and I think you’ve probably made a wise compromise (which looks great). Plus, this choice makes it a great keyboard for easily hitting Home or PgUp, but most of the time I’d like to have Enter and Backspace handy instead.

Gampela

15 Nov 2018, 18:44

Scarpia wrote: That is a lovely layout, really - and I love that there are solid reasons for every design choice. The only thing that would potentially bother me is that the enter and backspace keys are harder to locate without looking since they are ‘behind’ the column of 1u nav keys on the right.

Mind you, I don’t have a nice and clean solution that combines all the benefits of your layout with easy locations of those keys, and I think you’ve probably made a wise compromise (which looks great). Plus, this choice makes it a great keyboard for easily hitting Home or PgUp, but most of the time I’d like to have Enter and Backspace handy instead.
Thanks man! I'm really not doing anything special here, just utilizing design choices smarter people have come up with and combining them to something I would personally like.

Maybe this is something you would prefer. That additional gap might help you with finding the enter and backspace keys. Looks like CA66 with function row.

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PlacaFromHell

16 Nov 2018, 00:21

I'm not an expert but, what about this thing? I always wanted to know how is living with an alpha lock.

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davkol

09 Dec 2018, 18:42

I recently thought about the Space Cadet layout.

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There are two interesting things about it:
  • large function keys on the perimeter: those 2u keys (‘terminal’, ‘quote’, ‘over strike’,…) are much more practical than regular 1u function keys, but I've figured it's better not to rely on such keys that tend to be application-specific, when my computer usage is much more diverse (not limited to a specific text processor or IDE)
  • many extra modifiers outside the main section: while the amount of features/symbols (‘front’, ‘top’, ‘meta’, ‘hyper’, ‘super’), imagine reaching to arrow keys or numpad 0, whenever you need to press modern AltGraph or Fn… it's just not practical/ergonomic
That said, I do believe in modifiers, they just need to be placed more conveniently. This leads me to my layout ‘wishlist’…

Katana60 w/ altered spacebar-row spacing (unfortunately, Katana60 PCB/plate don't support this)

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ErgoDox 80 w/ increased column offset, reduced thumb clusters shifted closer, and resized vertical non-alpha columns (it's turned out to be very close to ReDox)

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ThePillenwerfer

10 Dec 2018, 00:59

This is my fantasy:—
Dream Keyb.png
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Last edited by ThePillenwerfer on 10 Dec 2018, 03:29, edited 1 time in total.

sh1

10 Dec 2018, 03:18

Borrowing from an earlier fellow's image, which matches what I did with my own navigation block, the ideal keyboard would emphasize that it's about the journey, not the destination:
Ideal keyboard.png
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depletedvespene

10 Dec 2018, 13:38

sh1 wrote: Borrowing from an earlier fellow's image, which matches what I did with my own navigation block, the ideal keyboard would emphasize that it's about the journey, not the destination:
The attachment Ideal keyboard.png is no longer available
If you're emphasizing the journey, you should make it clear what the ways of going about it are, and show what the distinct qualitative steps are, and how the quantitative steps are similar to each other. This jnav cluster shows it best:
xnav-cluster.png
Jnav cluster.
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rsaavedra

10 Dec 2018, 18:59

Tuntematon wrote:
rsbseb wrote:
//gainsborough wrote: Image

Does a layout like this exist? It should! =)
I have no use for a number pad myself but I absolutely agree that a left hand nav cluster should exist and am including one on my current project ;)
I prefer left-hand nav as well. It makes for a more intuitive mousing/navigating experience. If you must use a full-size layout, I would go a step further and put the numpad on the left as well. This full-blown left-handed layout is actually ideal for right-handed users! (if you can get used to using a numpad with your left hand)
Seconding this layout, if anything, for one of the same main reasons there are TKLs: alphabetical cluster would remain centered with monitor, and right mouse (or even a left mouse) would remain at an ergonomic distance from that center.

Still I would not like that unused space on the top right of the layout though, probably could simply have additional F13-F16.

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depletedvespene

10 Dec 2018, 19:04

I might be going back to a nav/alpha/num order on my Folly115 design. It will certainly NOT leave unused space on the top right! :mrgreen:

davkol

10 Dec 2018, 19:19

rsaavedra wrote:
//gainsborough wrote: Image

Does a layout like this exist? It should! =)
Seconding this layout, if anything, for one of the same main reasons there are TKLs: alphabetical cluster would remain centered with monitor, and right mouse (or even a left mouse) would remain at an ergonomic distance from that center.
Wrists are contorted somewhere in the middle, and it's 10–15 cm to even touch the mouse (maybe another 5 cm to grip it).

What's supposed to be ergonomic about it?

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Shifty

18 Feb 2019, 15:33

Here's what I want to do with my AT, once the new caps from ellipse arrive. This will be pretty close to the perfect layout for me.
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Note the compact nav cluster in the bottom right, I've been using that layout for ages on the home row using a function layer, something I will continue to do, but it can be nice to navigate one handed when you're feeling lazy :P I can't recommend this nav cluster enough, it's really handy having it on the home row, and the layout is super intuitive. I also put the backspace nearby as I was getting some wrist pain from reaching over to the backspace key.
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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2019, 15:39

The fix for an uncomfortable Backspace is to put it where it really belongs: right above Return!

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The HHKB got this right, and Model F sure can too.

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