I've read the 45g RF is not worth it... feels mushy. Its all about the 55g.samuelnsh wrote: ↑Sounds good, I won't hesitate on the supposedly perfect Topre keyboard thenMuirium wrote: ↑Hi Sam. Don't worry too hard about the HHKB. It's my favourite keyboard bar none, but didn't stop me. It recalibrated my expectations (I'm serious about being a snob) but did not kick my enthusiasm to the curb. Instead, I want to improve it (smaller chassis, Bluetooth that lasts longer than a glass of Guiness) and to find the cream of the crop in the oldies too. Novelty's no longer enough.
In your opinion though, would you prefer an HHKB Pro 2 or a uniform 45g Realforce? I've never owned an HHKB, so the only thing for me to go with is other people's opinion. I don't mind adapting to the HHKB layout if that has the better feeling keys!
I also have half a mind to go for the Realforce 55g 10th anni... love the color scheme. But the ebay asking price is pretty much double a standard 45g uniform
Has your keyboard enthusiasm ever decreased?
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Indeed. Shiva: are you sure you heard that from the horse's mouth and not some other place!
There's a lot of trash talking about Topre out there in general, because they rub some people up the wrong way much like Apple. Dedicated fans who accept next to no substitute + high prices + personal dislike of the switch feel = predictable outrage.
Besides, all preferences in switches are personal anyway. I was very disappointed with Matias Quiet Click just recently after reading generally glowing opinions about them. Nope, *in my opinion* they suck quite hard. So much for informative reading! There really is no substitute for trying for yourself.
Also, specifically about Topre switch weights: the exorbitant cost of tearing apart a 55g Realforce just to harvest its domes for an HHKB mod makes some folk very invested indeed in preaching the superiority of 55g. I have a 55g Realforce, and an HHKB, and let me tell you I have no such plans. The HHKB feels better *to me* than the Realforce already, so why fuck it up? Different people: different taste.
There's a lot of trash talking about Topre out there in general, because they rub some people up the wrong way much like Apple. Dedicated fans who accept next to no substitute + high prices + personal dislike of the switch feel = predictable outrage.
Besides, all preferences in switches are personal anyway. I was very disappointed with Matias Quiet Click just recently after reading generally glowing opinions about them. Nope, *in my opinion* they suck quite hard. So much for informative reading! There really is no substitute for trying for yourself.
Also, specifically about Topre switch weights: the exorbitant cost of tearing apart a 55g Realforce just to harvest its domes for an HHKB mod makes some folk very invested indeed in preaching the superiority of 55g. I have a 55g Realforce, and an HHKB, and let me tell you I have no such plans. The HHKB feels better *to me* than the Realforce already, so why fuck it up? Different people: different taste.
-
- Location: CZ
- Main keyboard: Kinesis Advantage2, JIS ThinkPad,…
- Main mouse: I like (some) trackballs, e.g., L-Trac
- Favorite switch: #vintage ghost Cherry MX Black (+ thick POM caps)
- DT Pro Member: -
Trash talking with a link to my comment? lol. Let me go back to the original question.
I've mostly quit a certain Western keyboard forum, or most of its subforums. Why? Because of way too many threads like "Topre Appreciation Thread", "Post your Korean custom" or anything "artisans". I don't have a problem with Topre Realforce, except I'm not a fan of the switches¹, ABS spacebars and the keyboards is mind-numbingly boring. OTOH, the discussions, where members reassure themselves of Topre superiority over Cherry and repeat the difference between 45g and 55g domes (because there's apparently nothing else worth noting) all the time… There's a common theme, related to the wallethack thread and a sort of an epeen contest. Meanwhile, DT at least partially maintains the original feel of the early exploration days—unless someone starts about the modern Topre.
¹ I don't think switches matter anymore. Anything is more or less fine, as long as it doesn't sound annoying or stick/bind. Yeah, I probably prefer Oki Gourd Spring switches, but that's just shooting myself in the feet.
I've mostly quit a certain Western keyboard forum, or most of its subforums. Why? Because of way too many threads like "Topre Appreciation Thread", "Post your Korean custom" or anything "artisans". I don't have a problem with Topre Realforce, except I'm not a fan of the switches¹, ABS spacebars and the keyboards is mind-numbingly boring. OTOH, the discussions, where members reassure themselves of Topre superiority over Cherry and repeat the difference between 45g and 55g domes (because there's apparently nothing else worth noting) all the time… There's a common theme, related to the wallethack thread and a sort of an epeen contest. Meanwhile, DT at least partially maintains the original feel of the early exploration days—unless someone starts about the modern Topre.
¹ I don't think switches matter anymore. Anything is more or less fine, as long as it doesn't sound annoying or stick/bind. Yeah, I probably prefer Oki Gourd Spring switches, but that's just shooting myself in the feet.
- Spikebolt
- √(4) != -2
- Location: Portugal
- Main keyboard: HHKB2 Pro
- Main mouse: Roccat Kone Xtd
- Favorite switch: Topre (so far)
- DT Pro Member: -
Calling it a Topre circlejerk just because some people prefer Topre over Cherry is just silly. Of course people who like Topre compare it with Cherries because everyone who is into keyboards has tried cherry switches and it's bound to generate some (friendly) discussion. It's all personal preference, your opinions are valid but so are mine. You can like whatever switch you want, and that's just fine.
-
- Location: CZ
- Main keyboard: Kinesis Advantage2, JIS ThinkPad,…
- Main mouse: I like (some) trackballs, e.g., L-Trac
- Favorite switch: #vintage ghost Cherry MX Black (+ thick POM caps)
- DT Pro Member: -
You've apparently missed the "reassuring" part. There's hype. There's street cred. There's bias.
"B-but people prefer the switches." Sure. People can also hear the difference in analog cables (that's seemingly somewhat possible). Does it make any actual difference in practice though?
"B-but people prefer the switches." Sure. People can also hear the difference in analog cables (that's seemingly somewhat possible). Does it make any actual difference in practice though?
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
We're wrong, in your eyes. We're eating our boiled eggs the wrong way. So what? Why the emotion?
This isn't politics. We aren't going to send goons to your neighbourhood to smash your face in. That's where I can understand such feelings!
Our liking something hurts no one. Hell, even I can put up with those contemptible sons of bitches who put their spacebars on backwards…
This isn't politics. We aren't going to send goons to your neighbourhood to smash your face in. That's where I can understand such feelings!
Our liking something hurts no one. Hell, even I can put up with those contemptible sons of bitches who put their spacebars on backwards…
- seebart
- Offtopicthority Instigator
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Rotation
- Main mouse: Steelseries Sensei
- Favorite switch: IBM capacitive buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0061
- Contact:
It always comes down to this: It's all personal preference. The rest is hot air of which I had (in reality) too much the last couple of days. Thank god it's back to normal now.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Some people really enjoy hot air, mind. (Newbs asking for advice so they don't have to buy to try. My goodness even non-newbs like kicking off these sorts of threads!) And then all the folk here in Scotland who usually summer in the Greek Islands who might have considered Germany for a change if you guys had only kept it up…
- seebart
- Offtopicthority Instigator
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Rotation
- Main mouse: Steelseries Sensei
- Favorite switch: IBM capacitive buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0061
- Contact:
I think you can forget about summering on any Greek Island at the moment. This is what's awaiting you in Germany:
Spoiler:
- Madhias
- BS TORPE
- Location: Wien, Austria
- Main keyboard: HHKB
- Main mouse: Wacom tablet
- Favorite switch: Topre and Buckelings
- DT Pro Member: 0064
- Contact:
I am wondering too, what is this discussion about? First I thought the topic is again artisan caps, then it could have been Apple, now it is Topre? It is just a great tactile keyboard switch - and for me without being hyped far better then its tactile counterparts from Cherry! Must be summer...Muirium wrote: ↑We're wrong, in your eyes. We're eating our boiled eggs the wrong way. So what? Why the emotion?
I'd say you are on a wrong discussion board then, and could discuss about keyboards in a general computer forum and not in a keyboard club!davkol wrote: ↑People can also hear the difference in analog cables (that's seemingly somewhat possible). Does it make any actual difference in practice though?
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Pretty much! Are we supposed to stuff apologies into our mouths and mention Cherry, Alps, Space Invaders, etc., etc., etc. to the nth power every sentence to the point of becoming foaming lunatics, let alone unreadable verbal diarrhea, just so no one can ever be upset? Christ on a stick! This place would be as dull and uninformative as Wikipedia!
I kid. But it's summer…
@Seebart: I never go anywhere for the heat. If I had the means, and if it weren't cloudy and cold here just now anyway, I'd rather fly to the southern hemisphere for a nice spot of winter top-up instead! But most people around here are proud of the nuclear looking skin injuries they bring back from Turkey, Greece and Tenerife after a few weeks in the ultraviolet this time of year. And in the winter, the tanning salon will do. Ugh…
I kid. But it's summer…
@Seebart: I never go anywhere for the heat. If I had the means, and if it weren't cloudy and cold here just now anyway, I'd rather fly to the southern hemisphere for a nice spot of winter top-up instead! But most people around here are proud of the nuclear looking skin injuries they bring back from Turkey, Greece and Tenerife after a few weeks in the ultraviolet this time of year. And in the winter, the tanning salon will do. Ugh…
-
- Location: CZ
- Main keyboard: Kinesis Advantage2, JIS ThinkPad,…
- Main mouse: I like (some) trackballs, e.g., L-Trac
- Favorite switch: #vintage ghost Cherry MX Black (+ thick POM caps)
- DT Pro Member: -
Actually, even the existence non-conformism generally keeps social groups more rational. Then they don't turn out the way head-fi.org did (Baldoor anyone?).Madhias wrote: ↑I'd say you are on a wrong discussion board then, and could discuss about keyboards in a general computer forum and not in a keyboard club!davkol wrote: ↑People can also hear the difference in analog cables (that's seemingly somewhat possible). Does it make any actual difference in practice though?
In addition, upgraditis is real, and hype trains don't help.
- Spikebolt
- √(4) != -2
- Location: Portugal
- Main keyboard: HHKB2 Pro
- Main mouse: Roccat Kone Xtd
- Favorite switch: Topre (so far)
- DT Pro Member: -
Of course there is bias, that's why it's an opinion and not a bunch of facts. There's no Cherry master race, Topre master race or one switch to conquer the whole earth.
I just think it's a bit silly to call it Topre circle jerk just because some people prefer the qualities of the topre switch. People around here are usually extremely polite when expressing their personal preferences, there is no e-penis, just people sharing their experiences. That's one of the best things about DT, really.
I just think it's a bit silly to call it Topre circle jerk just because some people prefer the qualities of the topre switch. People around here are usually extremely polite when expressing their personal preferences, there is no e-penis, just people sharing their experiences. That's one of the best things about DT, really.
- Blaise170
- ALPS キーボード
- Location: Boston, MA
- Main keyboard: Cooler Master Quickfire Stealth
- Main mouse: Logitech G502
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: 0129
- Contact:
I just think that Topre gets overhyped. I don't think it's bad but I was severely underwhelmed when I tried it out.
- CeeSA
- Location: Westerwald, Germany
- Main keyboard: Deck 82 modded
- Main mouse: MM711
- Favorite switch: Cherry MX Blue
- DT Pro Member: 0016
- Contact:
yes, my enthusiasm has extremly decreased.
- No modding needed anymore
pretty much everything I ever wanted is now available for sale
other DIY guys go much further than me
- Layout questions is answered
these days I hate every ISO variant and dislike staggered layout
at work, I only use matrix layout with a split keyboard
- Community projects are not really needed anymore
to be an supporter for the great Mr. Interface projects puched me pretty well
nowadays the demand is very low
- Switch question
not so important anymore
- Forum activity
it's simply to much for me to filter the best out of it
I miss some guys (reading posts from them etc.)
And ... the world of mice and mice sensors is not a good substitution...
- No modding needed anymore
pretty much everything I ever wanted is now available for sale
other DIY guys go much further than me
- Layout questions is answered
these days I hate every ISO variant and dislike staggered layout
at work, I only use matrix layout with a split keyboard
- Community projects are not really needed anymore
to be an supporter for the great Mr. Interface projects puched me pretty well
nowadays the demand is very low
- Switch question
not so important anymore
- Forum activity
it's simply to much for me to filter the best out of it
I miss some guys (reading posts from them etc.)
And ... the world of mice and mice sensors is not a good substitution...
- Spikebolt
- √(4) != -2
- Location: Portugal
- Main keyboard: HHKB2 Pro
- Main mouse: Roccat Kone Xtd
- Favorite switch: Topre (so far)
- DT Pro Member: -
And that's fine. Most people who enjoy cherries praise the MX Clear switches and I was severely underwhelmed by them as well. Not gonna call it overhyped or "circlejerk", just not my cup of tea. Different opinions and feelings are great!Blaise170 wrote: ↑I just think that Topre gets overhyped. I don't think it's bad but I was severely underwhelmed when I tried it out.
-
- Location: CZ
- Main keyboard: Kinesis Advantage2, JIS ThinkPad,…
- Main mouse: I like (some) trackballs, e.g., L-Trac
- Favorite switch: #vintage ghost Cherry MX Black (+ thick POM caps)
- DT Pro Member: -
Ahem.Spikebolt wrote: ↑There's no Cherry master race, Topre master race or one switch to conquer the whole earth.
That's one way to look at it, and I'd probably think the same three years ago. I'm afraid it misses the bigger picture though…Spikebolt wrote: ↑just because some people prefer the qualities of the topre switch
It matters, how the opinions are formulated. It matters, if it's off-topic or frequent. Speaking of frequency, (1) beating a dead horse comes to mind, and (2) it kinda defines the overall culture.
The keyboard hobby is still quite new though. We'll see in a decade or so.
- kbdfr
- The Tiproman
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID-QM-128A + two Tipro matrix modules
- Main mouse: Contour Rollermouse Pro
- Favorite switch: Cherry black
- DT Pro Member: 0010
As a matter of fact I found davkol's remark rather amusing… and quite appropriate.Spikebolt wrote: ↑[…] I just think it's a bit silly to call it Topre circle jerk just because some people prefer the qualities of the topre switch. […]
It has nothing to do with "just because some people prefer…", but points to quite exactly the "circle jerk" definition given by the Urban dictionary:
You Topre fanboys obviously don't even notice how you constantly keep repeating and mutually agreeing how superior Topre switches are, what for an overwhelming experience it is to type on them and so on.When a bunch of blowhards - usually politicians - get together for a debate but usually end up agreeing with each other's viewpoints to the point of redundancy, stroking each other's egos as if they were extensions of their genitals (ergo, the mastubatory insinuation). Basically, it's what happens when the choir preaches to itself.
I for one like Cherry MX blacks most, but do not praise them again and again
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Damn, grumpy chocolate bar frames the image in a way I understand!
So, uh, what else do you want us to talk about? How hard it is to find a board we like without piece of shit caps? That's generally what you good gentlemen are clutching at.
So, uh, what else do you want us to talk about? How hard it is to find a board we like without piece of shit caps? That's generally what you good gentlemen are clutching at.
- kbdfr
- The Tiproman
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID-QM-128A + two Tipro matrix modules
- Main mouse: Contour Rollermouse Pro
- Favorite switch: Cherry black
- DT Pro Member: 0010
Finding the term appropriate does not mean I mind your circle jerkingMuirium wrote: ↑Damn, grumpy chocolate bar frames the image in a way I understand!
So, uh, what else do you want us to talk about? How hard it is to find a board we like without piece of shit caps? That's generally what you good gentlemen are clutching at.
As a matter of fact, I find it amusing somehow. Like those long queues in front of Apple stores
- Spikebolt
- √(4) != -2
- Location: Portugal
- Main keyboard: HHKB2 Pro
- Main mouse: Roccat Kone Xtd
- Favorite switch: Topre (so far)
- DT Pro Member: -
I disagree. There is no "topre users vs the world" scheme. People who prefer Topre are bound to talk about Topre a bit more, like people who prefer SSKs are bound to talk about them a bit more, AEKs, Model Fs, whatever. Everyone has a preference, it doesn't become a circlejerk when that preference is Topre. I also don't remember people stating that Topre is overwhelming experience. I always say that it's underwhelming at first but really grows into you.
Don't remember ever reading "MX reds circlejerk" when MX reds were my favourite switch
Don't remember ever reading "MX reds circlejerk" when MX reds were my favourite switch
Last edited by Spikebolt on 06 Jul 2015, 16:45, edited 1 time in total.
- seebart
- Offtopicthority Instigator
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Rotation
- Main mouse: Steelseries Sensei
- Favorite switch: IBM capacitive buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0061
- Contact:
Uhh...very direct wordage packed kbdfr style. On the other hand this happens to be a forum about mechanical keyboard's...so the snobbish Topre fan boys may have their way.
- seebart
- Offtopicthority Instigator
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Rotation
- Main mouse: Steelseries Sensei
- Favorite switch: IBM capacitive buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0061
- Contact:
I think the truth is WE are entertaining kbdfr. This is free entertainment for him. Come to think of it, I have a good laugh sometimes too at the expense of others, preferably without letting them know.
- kbdfr
- The Tiproman
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID-QM-128A + two Tipro matrix modules
- Main mouse: Contour Rollermouse Pro
- Favorite switch: Cherry black
- DT Pro Member: 0010
You miss the best part of itseebart wrote: ↑[…] a good laugh sometimes too at the expense of others, preferably without letting them know.
- seebart
- Offtopicthority Instigator
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Rotation
- Main mouse: Steelseries Sensei
- Favorite switch: IBM capacitive buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0061
- Contact:
I have yet to master that offensive maneuver, I'm pretty good at it in real life but more hesitant here.
- kbdfr
- The Tiproman
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID-QM-128A + two Tipro matrix modules
- Main mouse: Contour Rollermouse Pro
- Favorite switch: Cherry black
- DT Pro Member: 0010
By the way, this bothers me way more than Topre praising:
I hope to still read you here and there, CeeSACeeSA wrote: ↑yes, my enthusiasm has extremly decreased. […]
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Yeah, long time no CeeSA. How is the Access-IS that I proxied to you those years ago? I eventually clued up and got a couple myself. Still need to Teensy them…
The various switch tryouts all seem to have petered out, despite DT getting bigger…
Damn good point. Mr.Interface's switch sampler was literally the first bit of the vintage or mech keyboard worlds to reach my door. What an eye opener! A treasure trove in a box.CeeSA wrote: ↑- Community projects are not really needed anymore
to be an supporter for the great Mr. Interface projects puched me pretty well
nowadays the demand is very low
The various switch tryouts all seem to have petered out, despite DT getting bigger…
Well, it's a nice devil to know, compared to the opposite. I find DT's activity just about right. But I spend more time here than is sensible for anyone! Yet what could we do to push the needle back?CeeSA wrote: ↑- Forum activity
it's simply to much for me to filter the best out of it