How many rows should a keyboard have?

jacobolus

08 Jul 2015, 15:53

CeeSA wrote: I will not read your whole wall of .... statements... It is to hard for me to filter any worthy out of if.
Why are you still writing here then?
Was there any argument? That staggered layout is more ergonmic than matix? Your hand is more shaped for staggered layout? Than please do not post a picture of your hands/fingers.
It is indeed clear that you didn’t read anything I wrote. Absolutely nobody ever claimed that hands are shaped like a Sholes layout. As for me, I think the Sholes layout is a terrible mistake which should have been fixed 80 years ago.

As for matrix boards, I’ve written exhaustively about my thoughts in other threads here and at geekhack, which you are welcome to google if you want a key-by-key breakdown. I’m not going to repeat that here, since you seem to be uninterested in reading even short comments.
Did you ever try martix layout? Did you ever try 2 part keyboards? Did you ever try any Tipro keyboard?
Yes, yes, and yes. Again, what’s your point?

Look, I understand it’s hard having written conversations not in your native language. But come on man.
Last edited by jacobolus on 08 Jul 2015, 15:59, edited 1 time in total.

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CeeSA

08 Jul 2015, 15:56

Missing arguments.... If there is any I could respond to them.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

08 Jul 2015, 16:29

jacobolus wrote: […] typing on a Tipro, like typing on a standard keyboard, is inefficient, error-prone, uncomfortable, and liable to cause permanent injury.
  • OK, the "liable to cause permanent injury" argument has now been dealt with in comparison with writers cramp when using a pen.
  • The "inefficient, error-prone" argument is evidently contradicted by the millions of keyboard users who succeed in typing more than a few sentences every day, and this without having to incessantly correct themselves.
  • I consider the "uncomfortable" argument as being pure nonsense as "feeling comfortable" obviously is a highly individual experience.
Any other arguments? I mean arguments, not simply forceful assumptions like:
jacobolus wrote: […] keyboards should have 2–4 rows, with 3 rows as the sweet spot; any more than 4 rows of finger keys is obscene. For thumbs, keyboards should have about 3–6 keys, possibly arranged in 2 “rows”
[…]
Each of the following design attributes makes a positive difference to speed, accuracy, and comfort: split and tented pieces; column-based stagger; lower keys for middle fingers and higher keys for pinkies; large (2+mm) height step between rows for all keys beyond the “home” position, keycap top angle doesn’t matter too much, as long as the keycaps are somewhat concave; not much height step for keys closer than the home position, but keycap tops and ideally even switches tilted forward to better catch a flexing finger; less horizontal distance between keys in different rows than standard
[…]
keys near the home row on a layer are better than dedicated keys in almost every circumstance. Only time to use dedicated keys is when an action is entirely separate from other uses of the keyboard.

jacobolus

08 Jul 2015, 16:33

kbdfr: if you want my full analysis, it’s going to take like 20 thousand words and a lot of detailed diagrams, and this is neither the proper venue for it, nor do I have time just this second. If you want proper scientific studies, all the existing ones in keyboard ergonomics are unfortunately crap (I’ve read at least 50–60 of them), so that part is going to take a team of researchers and a few million dollars of study budget. Not something I’m personally planning to pursue, but I urge other people to take on the challenge.

CeeSA, let me summarize for you:

Some of the following are nice keyboards, but they are all terrible keyboard layouts:
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These are better in certain respects, but still have some severe problems:
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These are somewhat better still, some better than others, none especially perfect:
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(the above from 1966!)
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This is the best I’ve been able to do on a keyboard with two flat halves, using standard keyboard switches and keycaps, but I think much better can be done with a more dimensional shape:
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Last edited by jacobolus on 08 Jul 2015, 16:37, edited 1 time in total.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

08 Jul 2015, 16:37

jacobolus wrote: kbdfr: super weak sauce.
[…]
That was the first version of your post before you edited it.
Editing was a really good idea :lol:

jacobolus

08 Jul 2015, 16:38

Also, I stand by my first version. Anyway, this thread is getting really useless. I’m going to go read some math books.

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CeeSA

08 Jul 2015, 16:43

ok, a lot of pics. It's maybe like your wall of text. Wouldn't 2 or 3 example be enough?
I still didn't find any argument staggerd vs. matrix layout.

Maybe you could post a picture w/ a good (in your opinion) layout. That could be the key to get something from you that I could understand....

*edit*

ah, I dicovered the text to the pics. :oops:
Sorry for that. :?

So you are using a non staggered layout with vertical adjustment for finger length. And special thumb area.
Yes, even better then a matrix layout, I would agree.
A bit of a shame that it was so hard for me to figure out the right things.

I like the layout of your last pic. But I would miss the trackpoint and a lot of vertical keys.
Just for phrases, less used program starts and so on. It's hard for me to remember less used keys at the 3/4 layer w/o label.
Last edited by CeeSA on 09 Jul 2015, 09:28, edited 1 time in total.

davkol

08 Jul 2015, 17:24

What about: it doesn't take finger length and opposable thumbs into account?

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

08 Jul 2015, 17:54

I think something which is by far not sufficiently, if at all, taken into account is the compensating proficiency factor.
In other words, the human body is able to adapt to suboptimal conditions in a marvellous way.
People who can't see will hear better, people born with no arms can develop prehensible feet and so on.
And most keyboard users will overcome the flaws of the usual keyboard design without much ado.

By the way, like a usual keyboard, a guitar does not take finger length into account, and still…
So the "usual keyboard", while admittedly being far from perfect, is a very sound basis for reasonable optimization,
complete reinventing being more a matter of ego-stroking.

davkol

08 Jul 2015, 18:02

Meanwhile, a significant amount of professional instrumental musicians is on painkillers.

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Halvar

08 Jul 2015, 18:07

Dogmatising personal rules makes no sense to me here. If you post a long list of dogmatic rules without any arguments in a forum, you have it coming.

Factors that differ wildly from person to person:

- What you type? If you use macros or special characters from different languages a lot, and they differ from software to software or project to project, it might make more sense for you to use more keys and leave your home row to hunt and peck them than to try to memorize more and more complicated modifier chords.
- Do you use the same software most of the time, or do you work with many kinds of software, each with a different set of functions? Do you use a lot of software that requires using the mouse or the numpad?
- How fast do you learn layouts or special modifier-key-combinations: this does vary from person to person for all kinds of reasons, among them age.
- How many computers/keyboards do you use? Do others use these computers? Can you use a more "exotic" keyboard at all?
- How fast do you type / need to type? By what measure do you get things done faster if you type faster?

There is no holy grail, and the vertical approach of finding a deep solution for a very narrow set of conditions sometimes can lead you very far down into a self-dug hole.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

08 Jul 2015, 18:40

davkol wrote: Meanwhile, a significant amount of professional instrumental musicians is on painkillers.
Oh! Well then, this irrefutable fact sure makes my argument completely worthless.
And surely blind people increasibly suffer from tinnitus :lol:

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OleVoip

08 Jul 2015, 20:01

Back to the original question:
How many rows ... isn't that a song by Bob Dylan? - :mrgreen:

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Muirium
µ

08 Jul 2015, 20:56

Before he can call himself a man?
The answer, my friend is blowing' in the wind.
The answer is blowing' in the wind.


Sums up the answers on this thread all right!

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SL89

08 Jul 2015, 22:36

Segovia is the best.

jacobolus

09 Jul 2015, 04:12

Halvar wrote: Dogmatising personal rules makes no sense to me here. If you post a long list of dogmatic rules without any arguments in a forum, you have it coming.
Are you talking to me, or the other posters here? I didn’t post any list of dogmatic rules, only a list of features which each individually make a noticeable improvement. I don’t demand that anyone adopt any or all of those features (actually I couldn’t care less what you folks type on), but I’d recommend them all, either separately or together.

I guess I should apologize for before. Some of you guys are super annoying to have conversations with, getting distracted by irrelevancies, bogged down in grumpy pedantry, intentionally and obtusely misreading comments, or just demanding to be spoon-fed instead of thinking a bit for yourselves. I don’t think any of your were being deliberate assholes, but it still made me cranky, and I was somewhat trolling you back. Sorry. Hopefully this comment puts any concerns to rest. If not, well, at least I tried. Learn from it or don’t as you prefer. After this I’m pretty much done; if any of you want more do the damn research yourselves. I really don’t care *that* much whether some internet strangers understand keyboard ergonomics or not.

* * *

It’s entirely possible to type on unpleasant, inefficient keyboards. As I’m doing right now typing on a laptop. It’s even possible to type on shitty keyboards for decades without permanent injury, by using the best achievable form for the keyboard, by holding down overall typing time and taking frequent breaks, etc. Sure the standard design is poorly thought out, confusing, and inefficient, but since most people spend most of their time thinking anyway, inefficient computing input performance might not be a bottleneck, people’s performance might have enough surplus that inefficiencies don’t matter, or the prevailing inefficiency in the rest of the world might sufficiently hide the problem that no one really notices or cares.

Anyway, no dogma here. Just some observations:

Unfortunately many typists either never learn good form, type too much without adequate breaks, don’t sufficiently take care of themselves outside the context of typing, or have other injuries or problems, and end up suffering RSI. It’s a really serious problem costing lots of money for medical expenses and lost productivity and in severe cases permanent injury, which is caused by a combination of bad keyboard design, bad training, bad practice, and unwillingness to take it easy when something starts hurting. But a large part of the problem owes to the design of the standard keyboard.

A standard keyboard is inherently impossible to type on with an entirely neutral arm/wrist/hand posture. Two-handed touch typing at full speed on a standard keyboard using any possible technique is just trading off static load on one set of muscles for static load on a different set of muscles, ideally not overwhelming any of them. The most effective way to cope with this is to not type too hard or fast, take frequent typing breaks, change postures from time to time, maintain a healthy lifestyle (sleep, diet, exercise, stress, etc.), and limit overall typing time.

As typing form goes, the best approach on a standard keyboard is to bring the keyboard close to the body and ideally not too high relative to the torso, tilt it such that the wrists can avoid flexion to the extent possible (ideally close to zero), keep the wrists relatively straight (not too much ulnar deviation) and slightly lower on the medial side (reduce pronation as much as possible, though a standard keyboard makes this difficult). It’s often necessary to slightly raise the elbows and rotate them outward to reduce wrist pronation but this unfortunately creates extra static load on the shoulders and upper arms. Often people try to reduce the arm and shoulder load by resting elbows, forearms, wrists, and/or palms on some support surface, or extending the arms forward in front of the body, but this has its own problems, reducing finger flexibility, preventing the arm from absorbing typing impact, and putting pressure on various tissues in ways that can cause or exacerbate injury. Ideally fingers can remain relatively relaxed, with slight amounts of arm movement used to reposition fingers in between keystrokes to locate the keys. In particular the ideal is to have the first finger joint mostly extended when the fingertip is resting on an unpressed key, so that it has maximum strength and flexibility to flex to make the keypress.

Reaching for keys by flexing the finger too much, by extending the finger fully with the first joint flexed (e.g. to press number keys), by stretching fingers out sideways (esp to reach many far keys with the pinkies), or by rotating the wrist to the point of extreme ulnar deviation (e.g. to press delete or escape or to use certain chorded keyboard shortcuts) are all relatively bad, so on a standard keyboard the ideal is to take some performance hit by moving the whole hand at least part of the way to avoid such motions. Ideally, the thumbs can press the spacebar while the hand is relaxed, but on a standard keyboard their resting position for medium-to-large hands is not actually over the spacebar, so there’s a choice and trade-off between moving the hand slightly for every press of the spacebar vs. just leaving the hand in a slightly more clenched position all the time.

Moving the whole hand away from the “home” position is a substantial efficiency hit. Every time you need to reach for the mouse, or the arrow keys, a corner delete or escape key, or one of the further F keys, etc., there’s a noticeable lag in typing performance. (On manual typewriters or keyboards with certain sculptured keycaps, pressing some keys in the bottom row also requires moving the hand down.) In general, the further the reach, the worse the efficiency hit, but even short hops are a drag. This slowdown isn’t only the time gap from hand movement per se, but also slightly disrupts the train of thought because it takes a split second to re-orient the hand at each side of the move, making work less fluent; long experience, especially in practicing specific key sequences, can reduce these delays but not eliminate them.

Several features of the design of the standard keyboard either force or strongly encourage uncomfortable and inefficient motions. Most obviously, putting the keyboard in a single solid piece with all the keys resting in the same plane is a terrible idea. The fix is to split the keyboard, tent it (“roll”), rotate the two halves inward (“yaw”), set the tilt to match the angle of the forearms with the wrists straight (“pitch”), and optionally separate the two halves by some amount though this isn’t really essential after the orientations have been fixed up.

The placement of many very common functions is far from the home position, causing the slowdowns mentioned previously. Putting functions which are interspersed in standard typing near the home row makes a measurable difference in typing performance. The most obvious examples here, for which I believe there are some published studies, or at least plenty of internal corporate research, are putting a trackpoint or similar mouse pointer directly on the keyboard, and moving the delete key nearer the home position, e.g. by placing it on a thumb key.

The keys are larger and more widely spaced than they need to be if they were placed properly. The two sides are asymmetrical. The ad-hoc row-staggered layout means that for any specific “home” hand position and orientation there are at least some keys on the keyboard that don’t naturally lend themselves to use by any particular finger, and for any particular home position/orientation there are natural and easy-to-press positions which fall in between keys. More generally, the keys are not arranged to align with the natural range of motion of the various fingers. At least when using the standard typing technique, where in general each key is mostly or entirely accessed by a particular finger, there is huge room for improvement here.

The ideal case has the tips of the fingers falling naturally on the home position keys when the hand is in a neutral relaxed position with the proximal joint of each finger in resting position (i.e. mostly extended) and the other joints somewhat flexed. This means that the home key for the middle finger must be further away and slightly lower (vertically) than the home keys for the index and ring fingers, and likewise the home key for the pinky finger must be slightly nearer and markedly higher than the ring finger home key. From there, keys should be arranged in “columns”, possibly with the columns at slightly different angles to account for the way fingers splay apart as they are extended. Keys closer than the home key should be placed and oriented such that when the finger flexes at the second joint, the fingertip falls as naturally as possible on the top of the key. Typewriters and even standard profiled keycap designs fail somewhat at placing bottom-row keys correctly; chiclet boards on laptops actually do a better job at this, by making them the same height as the home row with the home row flat. Keys further than the home row should have a substantial (~2mm?) height step between keys, such that further-away keys can be reached by extending the middle and distal finger joints without too much hand movement and with the proximal finger joint remaining nearly extended (if the key / keycap is too low either the hand needs to move or the proximal finger joint needs to flex to reach the key top), and in particular so that the key can be fully pressed without the fingertip running into the key in front. Changing the keycap profile to increase the height step between further rows has a very noticeable positive impact on efficiency and error rate on a column-staggered keyboard, but is an improvement even on an otherwise entirely standard Sholes-layout keyboard. Once keys are at the appropriate position and height to match the natural motion of the various fingers, they don’t actually need to be quite as wide or widely spaced as they are on standard keyboards. Even marginal reductions in key width make further-away keys noticeably easier to reach. In my opinion curved plates which make the switches oriented in a direction other than up-and-down are a mistake. The finger naturally presses keys by flexing the first joint, and if the key is angled away, less force is directed along the switch axis, or alternately the finger motion required is partly “stabby”. This is a slight problem for IBM buckling spring keyboards, a noticeable problem for the Maltron, and a severe problem for the Kinesis advantage. All of these keyboards would be improved if they could place the key tops in the same place, but re-orient the switch press axes so that they were aligned with the home-row switches. One slight exception: for keys closer than the home row, it’s possible to use flexion of the second joint (a “trigger” press motion) instead of the usual flexion of the first joint, to press a key with its axis pointed forward-back instead of up-down. This is a potentially interesting way to make a useful row of keys two rows below the home row. It makes keyboard construction more difficult though so overall it’s probably not worth it, except in custom experimental keyboards.

The standard keyboard dramatically overloads the right pinky finger. It’s a noticeable improvement to move functions off the pinkies and add additional space between hands with functions taken over by the index fingers. It’s not strictly necessary to have three columns for each index finger (indeed my personal advice would be just cut down the number of keys), but a key two to the side of the index home position is much easier to press than a key two to the side of a pinky home position, as right shift, return, or right bracket are on ANSI layouts, not even to speak of backslash or the right control key or the insane ISO enter key. In general keyboards are improved by making them symmetrical and relatively compact, reducing the number of keys to the extent possible, making sure all the keys can be reached without too much overall hand motion and without needing to re-orient the hand or twist the wrist, etc.

The spacebar is much longer than necessary taking away valuable real estate for other potential thumb keys, and also not in the right place (or alternately, not wide enough) for the thumb to naturally fall on it. If intended to be pressed with the thumb, the spacebar should be separated from the bottom-row finger keys, and ideally should be made a bit wider. It can be much much narrower, even 1u length is okay, though I think 1.5–2u is the sweet spot for length, depending on the keyboard design. Making the spacebar key higher relative to the other keys (e.g. with a taller keycap) makes a positive difference on most designs. The proper shape and arrangement of thumb keys depends very strongly on the rest of the keyboard design, so it’s hard to give fully abstracted advice, but in any case it’s possible to improve the spacebar dramatically even within the design space of the standard grid-like Sholes layout, by splitting the spacebar, reducing the length of each half to 1.5–2.5u, widening it to 1.5u or moving it toward the body, and either moving other bottom row keys closer to the center of the board or adding additional thumb keys. There’s plenty of space in front of the spacebar for an additional couple keys, shorter than the spacebar so they don’t get pressed accidentally when the spacebar is pressed.

Keys like arrows, F keys, the “navigation cluster”, the numpad, and so on can in general be improved by eliminating them and moving their functions to a layer. Personally I feel the same way about the number row as well, but that’s a slightly more radical change. Even if additional blocks of keys aren’t eliminated, they should be brought as close as possible to the home position while keeping some shape to them so a hand jumping to them can be easily oriented, and they should be placed so they are as easy to reach as possible. The arrow keys on a standard keyboard are particularly bad; they’d be improved if they could be reached by rotating the arm at the elbow instead of reaching toward the body.

Aside: just briefly, some comments on strict “matrix” layouts... These are basically about as easy to type on as standard keyboards, offering at best marginal improvement. (My opinion is they are marginally worse, but it’s pretty much a wash.) But unfortunately they don’t have any of the legacy/training/compatibility/network effects of a standard, so practically they end up much worse. You get all the ergonomic disadvantages of the standard keyboard combined with all the practical disadvantages (retraining cost, difficulty switching between boards, lack of ecosystem, expense of building or buying something special) of a custom keyboard. It’s a bad deal. Why are they about the same? Well, notice that on either a standard keyboard or a “matrix” board, the home position for the fingers when they are in a relaxed position isn’t actually directly over the middle of the keys, and the fingers aren’t actually moving straight w/r/t/ to the rectangular axes of the standard keyboard. Thus, a one-piece matrix board makes B, Y, O, P, and Tab slightly easier to reach, while making Q, T, U, N, M, C, X, Z, V, comma, period, slash slightly harder to reach. Numbers are pretty much a wash, and other keys depend on the specific matrix layout. A split matrix layout is a little better, but if the two halves are oriented to align with the hands then generally pinky keys and middle finger keys end up being harder to reach than on a standard keyboard, while index finger keys end up a bit easier to reach. I tried typing on various matrix layouts, both split and single-piece, for about two months, and they are, like standard boards, unquestionably worse (from a strictly comfort/efficiency perspective, but they’re also harder to learn) than well designed column-staggered keyboards. A matrix layout works slightly better in a context like the Maltron or Kinesis Advantage, because the height difference between columns partially offsets the lack of horizontal offset, but IMO both the Maltron and the Kinesis would be improved by adding a bit of column stagger.

The whole hardware/software stack is designed around single keystrokes or combinations of specific modifiers + single keystrokes, vastly limiting the potential motions human hands are capable of. Pianos, stenography keyboards, and other devices take advantage of the combinatorial explosion in possible actions per stroke available with full chording, but in the context of standard computer keyboards, it’s barely been experimented with at all, mostly because the software and hardware stack are not set up to cope with it, and have strict legacy-support and “learning curve” constraints. Even modest amounts of extra chording can lead to huge efficiency advantages, e.g. by adding additional layers using extra modifier keys on the thumbs. A book could probably be written about properly designing logical layouts once the physical layout has been sorted out, but I’ll spare you all here. One possible advantageous change is to move the modifier keys (ctrl, alt, meta) to the “number” row. I tried a keyboard with such a layout for a month, and I very much liked it relative to the standard modifier key placement. Overall a much better use for that row than numbers and symbols.

In short, my answer to the thread topic is: 3 rows per finger is about ideal (unless you want a steno keyboard, in which case 2 is fine). 4 is doable but one of the rows isn’t quite as usable as the others. I’d stay away from 5 rows of keys, but if absolutely necessary can be accomplished if the keys are made narrower, there’s enough height step to further away rows, and the functions are rare, or possibly if the 5th row is two below the home row and tilted upward to accept a trigger-style press. 6 or more rows of keys is absurdity.

Likewise, for total key count: 25 keys per hand is about ideal if you want everything to stay reachable. 20 keys per hand still yields an entirely workable keyboard if well designed, but is a bit limiting w/r/t learning and legacy support. About 30 keys per hand gives a lot to work with if you need lots of fancy features. 35+ keys per hand is just wasteful, like a single person commuting to work driving a Humvee.

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CeeSA

09 Jul 2015, 09:37

I edit my last post from yesterday. Sorry for the whole misunderstanding. But you made it not easy for me.
I found things you said overacting like your 'frighteningly Tipro' etc.
And this made it a little emotional from my side.

It is of course a deficit of my ability to understand english. And my laziness to read so much text. ;)

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vvp

09 Jul 2015, 12:09

I would go for 4 rows (one below home row, two above home row) for a flat keyboard and 5 rows for a contoured keyboard.
Except these 4/5 rows, there should be keys intended to be pressed by thumbs only. One may call it a thumb cluster or thumb row/rows.
More or less I agree with jacobolus except the tilting and therefore (partial) "stabbing" being wrong for the top row. My reasoning is simple: When you want to press a key in the top row you need to move there first from the home row. This movement will result in forward kinetic energy of the finger. Why not to dissipate that energy on the switch press? A rather long key travel of CherryMX helps here.
Without any tilting on the top row you need to stop the finger forward movement with muscles and then actively press down. Anyways me and jacobolus know we disagree here as well as one more point about finger knuckle loading when typing in steno way compared to a normal keyboard way :)
Here is my example which uses some "stabbing" of the first row.
left.jpg
left.jpg (67.29 KiB) Viewed 7119 times

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

09 Jul 2015, 12:25

@jacobolus: first of all: I have read your complete post. I mean: really read.
jacobolus wrote: […] I didn’t post any list of dogmatic rules, only a list of features which each individually make a noticeable improvement.
This, again, is nothing else than a dogmatic statement. The fact that it may be true for you does not make it a universal truth.
[…] I guess I should apologize for before. Some of you guys are super annoying to have conversations with, getting distracted by irrelevancies, bogged down in grumpy pedantry, intentionally and obtusely misreading comments, or just demanding to be spoon-fed instead of thinking a bit for yourselves.
If at all, probably you should rather apologize for that :lol:


* * *

Concerning the whole sermon which follows in your post, obviously your basic assumption is that when typing, ideally the arms/wrists/hands and also the individual fingers should be in a "neutral" or "natural" position and any movement should be minimized and optimized as much as possible.

This kind of mindset may apply to olympic disciplines where hundredths of seconds can decide upon victory or defeat and where all participants pursue the exact same objective under the exact same conditions, or perhaps specifically to typing contests, but certainly not to everyday typing, where, for example, some only rarely type numbers (or use arrow keys, or need shortcuts, or cope with additional characters, etc.) while others do it all the time.

Your post is full of unsubstantiated assertions. I'll pick up just one:
Likewise, for total key count: 25 keys per hand is about ideal if you want everything to stay reachable. 20 keys per hand still yields an entirely workable keyboard if well designed, but is a bit limiting w/r/t learning and legacy support. About 30 keys per hand gives a lot to work with if you need lots of fancy features. 35+ keys per hand is just wasteful, like a single person commuting to work driving a Humvee.
Obviously this implies that it is "better" to use shortcuts than dedicated keys. If we just take the example of "Undo", irrespective of the actual shortcut implemented, it is not clear why a two-finger or two-hand combo retrieved from memory should be given the preference over a single press of an unambiguously printed key. And of course the implicitly alleged advantage of not having to much move hands or fingers would rapidly diminish with the amount of combos having to be remembered.

Besides shortcuts, dedicated keys can support macros. I have many of them, including one which does the following (for research in an Internet database I use dozens of times a day): access the search page, press "Tab" exactly the number of times needed to reach a certain field (something like the ninth in about two dozens of them), insert the contents of the notepad, move the cursor to the "Search" button, activate it (pressing Enter doesn't work on this page).
You will probably agree that to achieve all that, it is "better" to press a single key on any keyboard than to have all your perfectly placed and shaped keys and have to go through all these actions.

So the end of your post ("35+ keys per hand is just wasteful, like a single person commuting to work driving a Humvee") is not only mere polemics, it is nonsense. There is nothing "wasteful", and nothing comparable to the waste of resources cited in your example, in using otherwise free keyboard (or desktop) space for useful additional keys.

davkol

09 Jul 2015, 12:34

…or press one combo to do the same, without moving the whole hand. The combo doesn't have to "be remembered". It's in muscle memory, esp. if it's used "dozens of times a day".

(I'd also prefer a simple script in some automation software, instead of a brute-force keyboard macro, but that's a different story.)

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Muirium
µ

09 Jul 2015, 12:38

@Kbdfr: Ah, now I see why you're the Tipro man. If I had to use broken by design software like that, I'd quit. Enforced idiosyncracies are what turned me off Windows, Ofiice, and many a website. To me, life (and my patience) is too short for such senseless suffering. But I shan't bandy it about as dogma! I'd get lamped…


@Davkol: While I was typing that, you found the solution I'd go for if absolutely forced to. I can't see around the monster that is Kbdfr's Sisyphean punishment of a job!

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

09 Jul 2015, 12:45

davkol wrote: …or press one combo to do the same, without moving the whole hand. The combo doesn't have to "be remembered". It's in muscle memory, esp. if it's used "dozens of times a day". […]
Perhaps I am a bit impaired - my "muscle memory" does not tell me that the combo needed is e.g. Ctrl+Shift+$, but only how to access it.
And as a professional, I have a quite impressive number of such shortcuts/combos and prefer to place each of them on a key than have them all on a printed list to retrieve them from. :lol:

Edit: another example: the coloured keys above the alphas on my keyboard are used to apply the colour to marked portions of text in MS Word when editing text files. I need to do that for my work, and it's way simpler than a combo for each of them.

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Muirium
µ

09 Jul 2015, 12:55

Printed list, good one! Oddly enough, I've never needed one of those for anything I use. But then I'm a picky bastard who insists on the flexibility to define his own shortcuts. That means chorded mods and alphas for self defined nemonics. My memory works perfectly with those, I am highly self predictable! But trying to find a seldom used key… uh… out over there somewhere… shit, let me look.

davkol

09 Jul 2015, 13:14

A printed list? :shock: An overlay (with full-text search and full hypertext documentation) directly on the screen. OTOH I'd have to glance down to actually find the key, in the respective scenario with dedicated keys for everything.

Most commands in control schemes like Vim or Emacs utilize minimal motions that already exist in the muscle memory, thanks to typing. If used frequently, these commands become atomic. Just like proficient typists don't think about typing common words as sequences of keystrokes (and often don't even remember the key-symbol mapping), emacs users certainly don't think about saving the file as a sequence of keystrokes "press Control, find X, strike X, find S, strike S, release Control".

jacobolus

09 Jul 2015, 13:18

kbdfr: basically, you got distracted by 2 sentences of throwaway tongue-in-cheek teasing, and totally ignored the rest, the result of an hour of work where I was trying to answer your questions in good faith and at great length. Such a conversation is not worth it for me. Type on whatever you want.

CeeSa: No worries, we’re all good. :-)

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

09 Jul 2015, 13:39

jacobolus wrote: kbdfr: you […] totally ignored the […] result of an hour of work where I was trying to answer your questions in good faith and at great length. […]
The only question I asked:
kbdfr wrote: […]
Any other arguments? I mean arguments, not simply forceful assumptions like:
jacobolus wrote: […]
[…]
[…]
You only posted an even longer list of forceful assumptions, still no arguments.

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vvp

09 Jul 2015, 13:41

I vote for Fn layers on well reachable keys and user defined defined macros.
Trying to find the right key somewhere up there looks like a pain. I doubt one can do it without looking. And distracting oneself by looking at the keyboard just to start a macro sequence looks like a major pain.

The hard to reach keys up there look like a waste of space for me.

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CeeSA

09 Jul 2015, 16:28

I think it is a question how many Macro/Phrases you want to save in your keyboard.
I have many many things stored in the keyboard.

- Connecting commands to more than 20 servers
- Windows Programm Start (I never start a program with the mouse)
- environment Variables for different Systems
- commands to change Profiles
- commands to change directories
- special commands to lock and unlock my workplace
- national and international addresses
- many more

For me it is not possible to take this into layers (under A-Z)and remember all that. Of course I look at the keyboard, find the label, move my hand and press the labeled key.
With this in mind, it make no sense to me, for dropping buttons and loosing comfort. I need them for the way I do this.

Also I did not like more than 2 labels for 1 keycap. So most of my relegendable keys have only 2 Layers programmed.

It's a question of what degree of automation you would like to have in your keyboard.
The Layers 2,3,4 of A-Z are full of other stuff already. Numberpad, Umlauts, phrases I often use, etc

More important is the question of mouse moving without leaving the homerow. That's why I only work with a trackpoint
in the middle of H,J and N,M.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

09 Jul 2015, 17:35

CeeSA wrote: […] More important is the question of mouse moving without leaving the homerow. That's why I only work with a trackpoint
in the middle of H,J and N,M.
CeeSA is of course right, this is an aspect which cannot be separated from the keyboard design. All minimizing/optimizing of arm/wrist/hand movements from the home position becomes absurd as soon as you have to reach out for a pointing device at the side of the keyboard.
CeeSA has his trackpoint, I have my RollerMouse :mrgreen:

Regarding the keyboard, I differ from him in that almost all my macros and shortcuts are on the first layer (a few things are concealed on other layers). Even then, counting only the "extra" programmed keys (i.e. omitting the extra arrow clusters, the number pad, the additional (left-hand) Enter and (right-hand) Esc keys, the old-style two columns of "F" keys on the left) I still have over 100 (!) such keys.
I'd challenge anyone to have so many shortcuts readily available from memory. Of course the usual shortcuts for Print, Undo, Cut, Copy or Paste are not a problem, but what about shortcuts for "convert dd.mm.yy date to dd. MM yyyy date inserting non-breaking spaces inbetween" or "check correct Unicode spelling of next word written in Latin transcription of Arabic [like e.g. al-Farāʾiḍ] against reference list and mark red if not correct" and the like, which I need once in a while?

Oh, you don't need such things? Well, then obviously you don't need so many dedicated keys, and combos will do for you.
But then do not just assume - and assert - that it is per se preferable to have as few keys as possible in order to avoid moving your hands, arms, wrists or fingers.

jacobolus

09 Jul 2015, 20:53

On my other keyboard (currently typing on a laptop so that’s not available) I have about 300 discrete keyboard macro actions, all accessible without moving my hands at all or slowing down. It will be trivial to support thousands more in the future, all on a keyboard with about 60 keys (for example I really should get around to adding a full IPA alphabet, a more complete set of shortcuts for emojis, easier access to a few hundred common mathematical symbols that I still have to sometimes hunt around for, and so on). And that’s not even to mention all the shortcuts available within software I commonly use, including thousands of text editor commands, macros, and snippets, hundreds of photoshop actions, etc.

But for any kind of action that really blows up, the easiest is to have some kind of textual/typing based access: that is, give the command a name several letters long. Typing a whole word or even a few words is not only dramatically more efficient than moving the hands off the home row, it’s also easier to remember. I don't even know how many named web browser shortcuts, quicksilver abbreviations, named shell scripts, etc. I have, not even to mention the thousands of built in unix commands on my machine.

But for anyone who doubts the power of limited keyboards to improve efficiency, just look to stenography keyboards, where with about 25 keys total it’s possible to type at several hundred words per minute. The logic is the same: make the motions small, with no reaching, and use combinations of fingers to encode an idea compactly.

Or more generally, this is the whole idea of the alphabet.

Imagine making a keyboard where each button represents a word, with a little pictogram label, so you can have a “tree” button and an “apple” button and a “house” button. Just imagine how amazing it would be to have a keyboard with 20,000 keys on it, one for each idea you might ever want to use. Obviously if you don’t actually need that many ideas, then your little “word” macros and your little alphabet keys are fine for you though. But then you can’t just assert that the every-idea-gets-its-own-button is per se less efficient, just because your needs are simplistic. Those of us who need to express real things, we’ll stick to the wall-sized keyboards, thank-you-very-much.

See how ridiculous that sounds?
Last edited by jacobolus on 09 Jul 2015, 21:12, edited 7 times in total.

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