Alps Appreciation

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mcmaxmcmc

19 Jan 2020, 02:13

JP! wrote:
18 Jan 2020, 19:36
We need some more SKCC love in here.


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So YOU were the one who got that board! Very nice!

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mcmaxmcmc

19 Jan 2020, 05:32

My dream has came true, after many missed encounters and whatever how long I've been searching for this...

A C.itoh keycap set!

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I'm currently using it in my Omnikey 101, my daily driver, to test the profile of the caps -- it's pretty darn nice! Definitely worth it for the price I got it for. :D

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C.itoh is bae. :D
Last edited by mcmaxmcmc on 20 Jan 2020, 08:59, edited 1 time in total.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

19 Jan 2020, 14:54

I nave had several Omnikey 101s, and never seen those arrow caps.

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E3E

19 Jan 2020, 15:35

fohat wrote:
19 Jan 2020, 14:54
I nave had several Omnikey 101s, and never seen those arrow caps.
If you look a bit closer, you'll see that the keycaps have been swapped in places.

They are C.Itoh spherical dyesubs.

4sStylZ

27 Jan 2020, 15:25

I there,

I have done some mods to test frankenstein alps recently because I have a lot of orange tactile and white dampened tactile, all of those from Apple Standard / Extended keyboards.

Those switchs was in variable bad condition and I have ultrasonic cleaned them + krytox lubed.

What I have done : 
  • Linear white dampened with 55cN springs. (Opposed leaf removed). 100% of the switch are working.
  • Linear orange (Opposed leaf removed).
  • White bottom housing + White slider + orange internals to make a sort of orange dampened.
  • Orange bottom housing + Orange slider + white internals to make a white undampened.
I get some issues : 

- I get issue with the two last one wich are tactiles : 10% of the switchs ping / click. I search tips to deal with it.
- For the orange linear : I get 10% switch who don’t actuate after lubbing them. I test them with a multimeter. Even while reinserting the leaf I don’t know why they don’t actuate. When I disassemble them, I can push the contact leaf and they actuate. But with a slider / spring : no actuation.

Also I am searching some feedback about the clicky mod vs original Blue Alps. I have done this mode on Dampened white just to test but I would know if someone have compared Orange clicky mod (with the modified opposite leaf) vs origimal blue. Is the clicky blue better ?

That’s something that I cannot test myself since folding the leaf break them sometimes, so it cannot be reversed, also I don’t have blue to compare.

orihalcon

27 Jan 2020, 17:55

Those C. Itoh caps are beautiful! Though I somehow expected them to look "more?" spherical. They look almost flat? I'm sure it's something that needs to be experienced in person regardless. Would love a set for myself someday :D

treeleaf64

27 Jan 2020, 20:29

orihalcon wrote:
27 Jan 2020, 17:55
Those C. Itoh caps are beautiful! Though I somehow expected them to look "more?" spherical. They look almost flat? I'm sure it's something that needs to be experienced in person regardless. Would love a set for myself someday :D
Wow, the legend himself appears. Never seen a comment by you before, it is very exciting.
I love those keycaps, they remind me of TaiHao cubic profile, but a little different as well.

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E3E

27 Jan 2020, 20:50

orihalcon wrote:
27 Jan 2020, 17:55
Those C. Itoh caps are beautiful! Though I somehow expected them to look "more?" spherical. They look almost flat? I'm sure it's something that needs to be experienced in person regardless. Would love a set for myself someday :D
They are very subtle, a bit like SA in terms of top scooping, but a bit nicer for sure. There is definitely a scoop though, thankfully. They aren't totally flat like MSX profile caps.



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User avatar
abrahamstechnology

28 Jan 2020, 17:33

4sStylZ wrote:
27 Jan 2020, 15:25
I there,

I have done some mods to test frankenstein alps recently because I have a lot of orange tactile and white dampened tactile, all of those from Apple Standard / Extended keyboards.

Those switchs was in variable bad condition and I have ultrasonic cleaned them + krytox lubed.

What I have done : 
  • Linear white dampened with 55cN springs. (Opposed leaf removed). 100% of the switch are working.
  • Linear orange (Opposed leaf removed).
  • White bottom housing + White slider + orange internals to make a sort of orange dampened.
  • Orange bottom housing + Orange slider + white internals to make a white undampened.
I get some issues : 

- I get issue with the two last one wich are tactiles : 10% of the switchs ping / click. I search tips to deal with it.
- For the orange linear : I get 10% switch who don’t actuate after lubbing them. I test them with a multimeter. Even while reinserting the leaf I don’t know why they don’t actuate. When I disassemble them, I can push the contact leaf and they actuate. But with a slider / spring : no actuation.

Also I am searching some feedback about the clicky mod vs original Blue Alps. I have done this mode on Dampened white just to test but I would know if someone have compared Orange clicky mod (with the modified opposite leaf) vs origimal blue. Is the clicky blue better ?

That’s something that I cannot test myself since folding the leaf break them sometimes, so it cannot be reversed, also I don’t have blue to compare.
Clicky Alps have an additional embossed area that hits the housing before the rest of the leaf, so they don't sound the same.

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E3E

28 Jan 2020, 22:29

I remembered that XMIT did an excellent comparison of spherical profile scooping depths in the past, so I had to dig that post up:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10805&p=339104&hili ... al#p339104
So, I got out my calipers, and measured a bunch of spherical key caps to see how deep they are in the middle, with a subjective comment:

IBM Selectric (love) - 1.15 mm
Micro Switch Hall Effect (love) - 1.21mm
[C.Itoh] Alps PBT Spherical Dyesub (rather like) - 0.83mm
[C.Itoh] Alps PBT Spherical Dyesub Homing (rather like) - 1.25mm
Xerox 820 (like, very similar to SA) - 0.93mm
Signature Plastics DSA (like) - 0.90mm
Signature Plastics DSA Homing (like) - 1.10mm
Signature Plastics SA (don't like - too shallow) - 0.84mm
Signature Plastics SA Homing (don't like - too aggressive) - 1.61mm
Topre Realforce HiPro (don't like - good depth but odd indentation profile) - 1.08mm
Topre Realforce HiPro Homing (don't like - too deep and odd indentation profile) - 1.62mm
Going by this post, I think he'd probably love the IBM Multistation doubleshot spherical profile Alps caps. They're somewhat close to beamspring, but have a wider top area.

The small top area of beamspring caps (and Alps SKCC spherical caps) is something that is a negative for me, which is why they're not favorites of mine.

I also don't believe that sphericals necessarily be stupid tall to be nice either. SA and Topre HiPro are ridiculous there. I believe some SKCC profiles are a little crazy too.

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

29 Jan 2020, 02:24

E3E wrote:
28 Jan 2020, 22:29
Going by this post, I think he'd probably love the IBM Multistation doubleshot spherical profile Alps caps. They're somewhat close to beamspring, but have a wider top area.
I bet I would! Do you have some to send to me? I've not had any luck finding these. :evilgeek:

I really like DSS.

Signature Plastics DSS 'E' (like) - 0.66mm
Signature Plastics DSS Homing 'F' (like) - 1.30mm

The key tops are decidedly NOT flat, I measured across a diagonal.

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NeK

29 Jan 2020, 07:48

I have a question that's being bugging me for a good while now and I can't find a clear answer anywhere that I looked. How are NOS early (pine) ALPS switches supposed to feel like? Blue, White pines, Orange/Salmon etc. Can you describe them please?

Up until now, I happen to have 2 ALPS boards, one with Blue and one with White pine switches and they have some friction in their travel, besides the tactility of the click leaf that you can feel while pressing them off-centre and it feels somewhat viscous.

Take note that I am only talking about off-center presses. The on-center presses are smooth and I will just ignore them for this post.

I'll try to describe what I mean by viscous: think of how it feels when you slide something on a piece of gum. It will be smooth (no scratchiness) but it will be "sticky" (of course it is nowhere near as strong as a gum's, so please don't hang on to this metaphor). The feel of the friction is like that, except that is just a tiny little bit.

For comparison I have a Matias Tactile Pro 4 that has new Matias Clicky switches and besides the click tactility they have no other friction that I can feel. I can describe them as having a gradual "strong" resistance up until the click and after that they are suddenly buttery smooth and very light until the bottom. I can't feel any scratchiness or any other kind of friction at that point on. Furthermore I have a Matias switch tester and it is the same for their 'Quiet click' and 'Linear' switches too. Also the same goes for MX switches, which are common and familiar to most, besides their click/tactile bump they otherwise have extremely smooth travel until bottom, no matter what angle or position you push them at (off-centre).

So is this "stick" friction normal for ALPS? Is this how ALPS are designed to feel? Is this due to their factory lubrication gone bad after all those years and has become somewhat sticky? Or are they designed to have no friction just like the new Matias switches and/or MX (and clones)?

I can make a video to demonstrate this as much as possible if you think it would help.

Update: clarification for off centre presses
Last edited by NeK on 29 Jan 2020, 09:00, edited 1 time in total.

ollir

29 Jan 2020, 08:54

NeK wrote:
29 Jan 2020, 07:48
I have a question that's being bugging me for a good while now and I can't find a clear answer
That doesn't sound like what they're supposed to feel like. I've couple of boards with pine whites in good condition, and they are quite smooth.

Have you tried cleaning any of the switches?

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NeK

29 Jan 2020, 09:05

ollir wrote:
29 Jan 2020, 08:54
NeK wrote:
29 Jan 2020, 07:48
I have a question that's being bugging me for a good while now and I can't find a clear answer
That doesn't sound like what they're supposed to feel like. I've couple of boards with pine whites in good condition, and they are quite smooth.

Have you tried cleaning any of the switches?
Just a clarification: I was only talking about off-center presses.

I did clean the white pine switches because they were in bad condition and i did experiments with them. I have managed to find a way to make them smooth (again for the off centre presses), but it involves rubbing and scratching the surface of the sliders and the top housing's sliding points. I don't know if what I did is closer to the real feel or not and that is why I ask here how they are supposed to feel.

h.parks

30 Jan 2020, 05:53

Alps dactyl bottom mount redesign update pic 8-)

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abrahamstechnology

30 Jan 2020, 16:55

Do you have the STLs for that?

h.parks

01 Feb 2020, 08:15

abrahamstechnology wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 16:55
Do you have the STLs for that?
https://github.com/h-parks/dactyl-keybo ... ter/things

enjoy. alps stabs fit and switches snap in quite well.

be gentle on the plate; it can be fragile.

still working on the top case design but it should fit ok-ish right now.

kelvinhall05

01 Feb 2020, 17:58

My recently acquired Omnikey Ultra has some issue with switches binding when pressed off-center. The seller said the switches were super clean and the board itself is in good shape. Is this normal?

EDIT: Also, a lot of switches are clicking on the upstroke, way more than my FK-9000 which also has white Alps.

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Chyros

01 Feb 2020, 18:11

kelvinhall05 wrote:
01 Feb 2020, 17:58
My recently acquired Omnikey Ultra has some issue with switches binding when pressed off-center. The seller said the switches were super clean and the board itself is in good shape. Is this normal?

EDIT: Also, a lot of switches are clicking on the upstroke, way more than my FK-9000 which also has white Alps.
No, clean Alps switches do not bind. Also, I'd never take the word of a merchant, especially a commercial one, on whether or not it is "clean" – many will think "clean" means "not immersed in mud" :p .

Clicking on the upstroke is also not a great sign. You should probably take a look inside the switches and see if there's anything inside. If there is, it's not clean.

I made an extensive video seris on restoring Alps switches, check it out :) .

kelvinhall05

01 Feb 2020, 18:17

Chyros wrote:
01 Feb 2020, 18:11
kelvinhall05 wrote:
01 Feb 2020, 17:58
My recently acquired Omnikey Ultra has some issue with switches binding when pressed off-center. The seller said the switches were super clean and the board itself is in good shape. Is this normal?

EDIT: Also, a lot of switches are clicking on the upstroke, way more than my FK-9000 which also has white Alps.
No, clean Alps switches do not bind. Also, I'd never take the word of a merchant, especially a commercial one, on whether or not it is "clean" – many will think "clean" means "not immersed in mud" :p .

Clicking on the upstroke is also not a great sign. You should probably take a look inside the switches and see if there's anything inside. If there is, it's not clean.

I made an extensive video seris on restoring Alps switches, check it out :) .
Cool, thanks man. I do have one unrelated question: how much would a 4704 F50 macropad/numpad in 9/10 shape with a cable go for?

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abrahamstechnology

04 Feb 2020, 17:45

Thank you! One day I'll print it in ABS and vapor smooth it.

the_ambyguous

05 Feb 2020, 04:14

a service replacement apple IIc board just sold on ebay earlier today. shoulda posted it earlier. it looks plausibly NOS, considering its not in an IIc and there’s packaging. i was sorely tempted, but i have too many SKCM blues and not enough fiat currency.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 3448822817
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NeK

05 Feb 2020, 14:01

the blue color of their stems are way to light and I have never seen it before, or is it the photograph?

the_ambyguous

05 Feb 2020, 14:47

NeK wrote:
05 Feb 2020, 14:01
the blue color of their stems are way to light and I have never seen it before, or is it the photograph?
its just the way the light is hitting the switches in the paragraph. those are definitely genuine blue alps. they’ve been confirmed before by another user who purchased the same IIc service replacement keyboard a while back. although they originally came with amber alps, the replacement board came with blues.

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NeK

05 Feb 2020, 21:17

Wow nice 👌 enjoy them

orihalcon

06 Feb 2020, 02:06

I won that one! I had a real NOS one about 5 years ago, but ended up trading it soon after I got it.

See here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71488.0

Money shot from NOS board of yore:
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I was too afraid to open them for fear of damaging them, but I've gained a lot of experience in the meantime and will be doing that for sure this time :D

I'll post a switch teardown once it arrives and compare to original blues and ambers for you all here.

The stems were definitely lighter in person and almost translucent to some degree. I'm guessing they were only used in those replacement boards as Apple probably was one of the few companies that would care to meet a minimum order quantity and have something similar to their previous custom Amber ALPS. This might have been after production of regular blues was over as well, hence the custom light blue/translucent plastic? Just a theory.

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AlpsComeback

08 Feb 2020, 03:17

(I hope this fits here since it's an Alps keyboard :) )

The Apple M0116 keyboard has a really weird and bad arrow key arrangement, so I recently changed mine to the one in the picture below. It's much better, and although I'm still not used to where the /? is now, it's much easier to navigate. I'm probably not the first one with this idea, but if you want to improve your M0116 layout, try this!
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kelvinhall05

08 Feb 2020, 03:40

So I've thoroughly cleaned my Omnikey Ultra but after using it for a week, the clicking on upstroke has come back. Why the fuck is it coming back? The two other white Alps boards, one in *worse shape* than this one before cleaning never had that issue. Why why why are my switches cursed in this board.

I vacuumed and dusted the top and bottom housings, wiped the sliders, washed the click leaves in straight rubbing alcohol, but to no avail. The switches feel a lot better, but some are now clicking on the upstroke again. Fucking hell.

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//gainsborough
ALPSの日常

08 Feb 2020, 03:48

I can see how upstroke click would be annoying on a tactile board since those aren’t supposed to click. But what’s so bad about a clicky switch clicking on an upstroke?

In my experience most clicky alps have a faint click on their upstroke. When the slider comes back up it has to clear the click leaf again, albeit at a different angle, but I don’t think it’s uncommon for clicky switches to click on their way up - the leaf Is only “anchored” at its base after all.

kelvinhall05

08 Feb 2020, 03:54

//gainsborough wrote:
08 Feb 2020, 03:48
I can see how upstroke click would be annoying on a tactile board since those aren’t supposed to click. But what’s so bad about a clicky switch clicking on an upstroke?

In my experience most clicky alps have a faint click on their upstroke. When the slider comes back up it has to clear the click leaf again, albeit at a different angle, but I don’t think it’s uncommon for clicky switches to click on their way up - the leaf Is only “anchored” at its base after all.
It's not that. The upstroke click only appears on a few switches, and it's almost as loud (I'd say even a little louder) than the downstroke or normal click...

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