HHKB - struggle with modifiers?

[Phenix]

I thought about getting a HHKB several times and Im still unsure.
I am using CTRL/ALT/WIN all the time (and would like to have a layer switch also)

my current setup on my ISO TKL was:
Capslock::BACKSPACE
'the button beside lshift'::Layer1
mods on right side::some hotkeys, never using Rside mods


So: How is your experience with the mods on your HHKB? Do they fit your usage behaviour?

[Wodan]

Got a Hasu Controller right from the start with both of my HHKB and couldn't use them without it.

Capslock/Control is my FN switch and I am unwilling to get used to anything else. I also disagree with the position of the arrows on the HHKB ... and I need a F1-F12 cluster on the QWER,ASDF,YXCV keys because I use them a lot for debugging and find it tiring to stretch my fingers from FN to 5/6/7/8 all the time.

When it comes to the bottom row, having two mods on each side of the space bar is the minimum for me - pretty much exactly what I need. Ctrl+Alt (SPACE) AltGr+Win could provide all the keys you need

[face]

If you would like to continue using caps as backspace, the HHKB is not an option I am afraid - you would loose the control key. But since the backspace position above the enter key is far superior to the usual position, this might not be that bad. Of course you could remap one alt key with ctrl, but then I would rather go for a realforce... the beauty of the HHKB lies in its simplicity and that is something I really enjoy about it.

I am from Germany too and am using the german layout on the HHKB and I really like the layout of the HHKB. It's far better to have the long Lshift key and the long enter key, much less stress to the hands in my opinion. The arrow cluster takes some getting used to, but is alright after a few days. That's also because the control (ctrl) key is that easy to reach - I only now started using the control-a/e/f/b... keys that Linux and Mac offers, which come in really handy.
It's useful on Windows too, for strg+t/w/c/v/x and so on.

The german keys get remapped on OS X so you don't loose them. I didn't bother with my windows version since I don't need <> there, but you could use autohotkey if you are missing something. One thing I dislike is the forward delete position if you use the Delete button as normal backspace (switch 6). It moves to "fn+upper right key" instead of "fn+backspace" which would have been as bad. TLDR: the fn-key could have been placed better, but it's alright as it is.
I tend to use control+d for delete now and have remapped delete the apostrophe-key, which I don't use anyway.

I messed around with karabiner a lot and tried different settings, also arrow on WASD and IJKL, but ended up using the normal HHKB layout as it comes, with that one adjustment of the delete key. Seems to be a good layout.

Just get it with blank or black on black keycaps - I personally find the wrong lettering annoying if you use ANSI german. Though it's only a minor thing, since I am only touch typing.

I have the HHKB Pro BT and am really satisfied. Ordered it at smartimports.net.

[Khers]

How is your experience with the mods on your HHKB?

Good

Do they fit your usage behaviour?

Yes

[Thumper]

This post really makes me rethink the HHKB layout and reprogram it to something more useful for my needs.

[Phenix]

thanks for your opinions!
The long lshift is (in theory) good.. If you use the space.
I dont atm as Im native ISO and will need to practice.
I will overthink it.

missed to say:
FN+esdf are my arrows, along with nav keys (and similar on the right side with rshift as FN)

[face]

Let's put it this way: the layout of a 60% keyboard is always a compromise. In my experience with every 60% that you didn't build and programmed yourself you will have to rethink and relearn some things. You have to decide for you if the hassle is worth it - I personally don't use function keys or the numpad at all and really dislike big chunky things on my desk so a 60 is perfect.

You can of course reprogram everything. With the stock layout you'll have to relearn.

[Crossfire]

As good looking and convenient as the board is, I do struggle to put some serious work on a 60% board. HHKB is by far the most practical layout out there, but when you work in F-row heavy terminals and some serious number inputing projects, it's a struggle without all the keys in the long run. I've settled on a full layout in the end, no compromises for me for a serious work. Lubed AEK II with TMK shines where it needs to, for me...for now

[U47]

Hasu's controller is gangbusters for the HHKB. I have one in a Type-S and one in a plain.

Since it's fully programable, I'm constantly tweaking my layout. Right now I lean heavily on SpaceFN, along with a tap-backspace control mod at the caps lock position. And a tab-enabled virtual numpad.

SpaceFN gives me arrows right close to home position, as well as all the function keys.

Take a look to see what's possible.

[Thumper]

Hasu's controller is gangbusters for the HHKB. I have one in a Type-S and one in a plain.

Since it's fully programable, I'm constantly tweaking my layout. Right now I lean heavily on SpaceFN, along with a tap-backspace control mod at the caps lock position. And a tab-enabled virtual numpad.

SpaceFN gives me arrows right close to home position, as well as all the function keys.

Take a look to see what's possible.

Can you elaborate the SpaceFN?

[amospalla]

It means that while pressing Space the keyboard has another layout, so for example your HJKL keys may be cursors (if you are a vim user). You can still use your Space key, pressing and releasing it sends proper Space key code.

You can have several layers, move permanently between them, move temporarily to them while a key is being pressed (like the SpaceFN above) while mantaining the original key function, or move temporarily to a layout without retaining its original key code (the difference is subtle but this is a best route if you have some spare key you don't use). You can make macros, assign several modifiers to a single key. You can make use of almost any key code you can think about, including multimedia and mouse control. This is just a fast comment, but you can take a look at the official documentation and see what this is able to. This is my config file.

I personally have set up 4 different main layouts so I can move between standard ISO, Matias Mini, Realforce and HHKB while not being annoyed by its subtle layout differences. On those keyboards with keys I don't use (like JIS) I use dedicated keys to activate temporarily a l ayout, and for those keyboards that doesn't have non-used keys (like ISO) I use the Space FN described below like Thumper does. The temporary layouts I have are arrow cursor with some other keys, multimedia, mouse and macros.

It really changes keyboard use seriously, and if you don't mind using JIS it gets to an upper level. The bad about using JIS with Hasu's converter is that you stop using anything non-JIS, in my case it means I don't use my Matias anymore only for it lacking modifier keys.

[Thumper]

It means that while pressing Space the keyboard has another layout, so for example your HJKL keys may be cursors (if you are a vim user). You can still use your Space key, pressing and releasing it sends proper Space key code.

You can have several layers, move permanently between them, move temporarily to them while a key is being pressed (like the SpaceFN above) while mantaining the original key function, or move temporarily to a layout without retaining its original key code (the difference is subtle but this is a best route if you have some spare key you don't use). You can make macros, assign several modifiers to a single key. You can make use of almost any key code you can think about, including multimedia and mouse control. This is just a fast comment, but you can take a look at the official documentation and see what this is able to. This is my config file.

I personally have set up 4 different main layouts so I can move between standard ISO, Matias Mini, Realforce and HHKB while not being annoyed by its subtle layout differences. On those keyboards with keys I don't use (like JIS) I use dedicated keys to activate temporarily a l ayout, and for those keyboards that doesn't have non-used keys (like ISO) I use the Space FN described below like Thumper does. The temporary layouts I have are arrow cursor with some other keys, multimedia, mouse and macros.

It really changes keyboard use seriously.

Ah, so the space signal only gets send on release of the key and while the key is pushed down I can use it like FN .

[amospalla]

Yes, if you push and instantly release (like you would normally do to send a single keystroke) it behaves as a Space key. If you otherwise push and hold it for a threshold (in ms, don't remember its default value, but quite low) then it becomes a modifier and don't send Space key code on release.

For example, on my JIS keyboards I use some of the extra JIS modifiers as exclusive layout modifiers:
- ACTION_LAYER_MOMENTARY(6): when the key is being hold I use the layer 6 instead of the default one. I come back to default layer when released.

For keyboards non-JIS, like my ISO keyboards I use Space with a double role:
- ACTION_LAYER_TAP_KEY(5, KC_SPC): if I press and release like in normal writing it sends Space key. If I press and hold it then the controller uses layer 5, until I release it to go back to default layer. It feels quite natural, you don't feel it like having to wait to the threshold to trigger (it is quite low). But then, what happens if I want to press and hold Space to write a bunch of blank spaces? Double press Space while holding it on the second press, that is, press and release as with a normal stroke and then press it again and hold it.

In my config for which I posted the link above, there are examples on how to use these two layout modes (fixed and temporary), macros, 4 different permanent keyboard layouts (in my case for ISO, Matias, RF and HHKB, but you can use it for example to move between layouts on the fly like dvorak, qwerty, etc) which you can move between, and several temporary layouts for things like multimedia keys, cursors column, mouse actions and macros. The thing that took me the most to understand was having several fixed layouts.

[Thumper]

Yes, if you push and instantly release (like you would do normally to send a single keystroke) it behaves as a Space key. If you otherwise push and hold it for a threshold (in ms, don't remember its default value, but quite low) then it becomes a modifier and don't send Space key code on release.

Thank you.

[Phenix]

Thanks!
The second rule for space sounds good enough to try it again.

For. F-keys: there was an macro for QMK that did 1 (for all numbers) on tap and the according F key if hold longer tham 400ms

An JIS topre sounds nice in general (more modifiers)
Badly HHKB JIS has an 0. 25 shifted shift row

[amospalla]

If you like standard layouts HHKB JIS has a weird bottom left layout, where you end with 5 keys on the left of Space. I ended with two windows keys so I somewhat can press the keys where I would expect them to be and it works. Besides that it is a really good keyboard (I still prefer a Realforce, but with an HHKB I have the mouse nearer) and I recommend it.

Notice that a temporary layer with SpaceFN is just the configuration me and U47 use, but for the Hasu's controller it is just one more key, you can use any key as a modifier, and even chain them. I once put on my macros some of my passwords, which got triggered after you hit a weird combination of keys, that combination was nothing else than a chained trigger of layers one after the other. I do not have that anymore but was funny to test it. In conclusion, you can program it the way you want.