Futaba clicky switch thoughts?

[balotz]

Futaba's are rarely mentioned on here. I have several futaba boards and I'm curious about the general consensus on the switch.

Personally, I find them even better to type on than blue alps. They;

* are extremely smooth, probably the smoothest switch I've tried
* are light (~50g actuation)
* are clicky (and the click occurs exactly at the point of actuation, like buckling springs)
* do not bind (based on the 5 or so boards I have in various condition)
* click on both actuation and release

[ohaimark]

A lot of people don't like them. I don't enjoy them because they feel very "pushy" and uneven on the upstroke.

I can see why some people would like them, though. They really are quite smooth and well engineered, even if the build quality is a bit chintzy.

[citrojohn]

I like them - like you I find the travel smooth and the click pleasingly unresistive. It's a pleasant-sounding click, too - second only to Model Ms of the types I've tried. I only wish they could be opened.
(I also wish the Sejin board that contains my Futabas had more sound insulation. If the electronics ever go wrong, I could use the case to make a musical instrument, it's that echoey...)

[balotz]

I like them - like you I find the travel smooth and the click pleasingly unresistive. It's a pleasant-sounding click, too - second only to Model Ms of the types I've tried. I only wish they could be opened.
(I also wish the Sejin board that contains my Futabas had more sound insulation. If the electronics ever go wrong, I could use the case to make a musical instrument, it's that echoey...)

Which Sejin board is that? It's unfortunate the switches are sealed but they seem immune to dust / dirt as I've never seen a scratchy one.

There is the conception with these switches that they lose their click through overuse. Though some testing I've discovered this isn't really the case - I have a brand new board where the keyfeel across the switches is pretty inconsistent. Some click loudly with sharp tactility (I assume this was the original intention), and some feel almost linear.

The loss of click seems to occur if the board has been sitting without use for a long period. I've been testing a method which permanently restores the original 'click', even to seemingly badly degraded switches, without opening up the switch, and have had great success.

[seebart]

Futaba's are rarely mentioned on here. I have several futaba boards and I'm curious about the general consensus on the switch.

Apart from the fact that any "consensus" is silly I'd like to see pictures of your futaba keyboards!

[balotz]

Futaba's are rarely mentioned on here. I have several futaba boards and I'm curious about the general consensus on the switch.

Apart from the fact that any "consensus" is silly I'd like to see pictures of your futaba keyboards!

Well, when there is a consensus it tends to be negative. Cherry MY for example. Keyfeel is always subjective but there are some aspects of a switch no-one could like (e.g. rough travel or excessive binding)

Leading Edge SKM-1030

2016-11-03 10.15.53.jpg (3.84 MiB) Viewed 9022 times

I'm using this board at the moment, a Leading Edge (Sejin) SKM-1030, with inverse cross mount keycaps.

Keycap

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The keycaps are unusual - the tops are non-textured, and quite slippery by default. I'm unsure of the material - they are not ABS as they don't yellow, so perhaps PBT. They are neither pad printed nor doubleshot.

Profile

2016-11-03 10.17.17.jpg (3.26 MiB) Viewed 9022 times

The profile is also unusual - the case is curved, but the bottom row of keys sits very low relative to the rest.

I'll dig out some of the other boards. One, which is unused, has a nice set of thick Cherry MX mount doubleshots.

[seebart]

Ahh cool thanks for the pics. I say a consensus is "silly" because everyone has their preference. There may be a majority that dislike Futaba but individuals may like it and that's very valid. Sort of reminds me of Key Tronic FF.

[Chyros]

They're not the most well-designed switches; the tactility is weak and two-way which kinda throws me off, but the switches are remarkably smooth and they feel nice and light. I know a few people that really like them, and I can definitely see why. I'd say I've had better, but I've also had much worse.

[seebart]

Of course anyone could like them regardless of how well they are designed. I have yet to try any Futaba switch. Of course I read what fellow users write so to be honest Futaba is not at the top of my "want to try" list.

[balotz]

They're not the most well-designed switches; the tactility is weak and two-way which kinda throws me off, but the switches are remarkably smooth and they feel nice and light. I know a few people that really like them, and I can definitely see why. I'd say I've had better, but I've also had much worse.

I think at manufacture the switches were designed to have high tactility. I've managed to restore the tactility on the weak switches on my board by removing a keycap then pushing down very hard on the slider with a narrow implement, and holding for about 10 seconds. I used something like this:

Implement

2016-11-03 13.17.58.jpg (4.59 MiB) Viewed 8992 times

The switches use a flat spring which inverts to actuate, and I think this procedure works to restore the spring to its original shape. As the switches are sealed I haven't confirmed this, but it works and after its done the switches are far more clicky and tactile.

[Chyros]

They're not the most well-designed switches; the tactility is weak and two-way which kinda throws me off, but the switches are remarkably smooth and they feel nice and light. I know a few people that really like them, and I can definitely see why. I'd say I've had better, but I've also had much worse.

I think at manufacture the switches were designed to have high tactility. I've managed to restore the tactility on the weak switches on my board by removing a keycap then pushing down very hard on the slider with a narrow implement, and holding for about 10 seconds. I used something like this:

2016-11-03 13.17.58.jpg

The switches use a flat spring which inverts to actuate, and I think this procedure works to restore the spring to its original shape. As the switches are sealed I haven't confirmed this, but it works and after its done the switches are far more clicky and tactile.

That might be a modification, but do we have any indication that these switches were like that out of the factory? I mean I've never heard anyone say Futabas are highly tactile Oo .

[balotz]

That might be a modification, but do we have any indication that these switches were like that out of the factory? I mean I've never heard anyone say Futabas are highly tactile Oo .

There's no way to be sure, but when I received this board, many of the switches were completely fine - very tactile / clicky. I also have a NIB Sejin EAT-1010, but around 80% of those switches have very weak tactility, and only a few have a nice click.

It's likely that Futaba cheaped out on manufacturing in later years, so perhaps newer versions of the switches degraded more quickly.

Even with this procedure, some of the original (unmodified) switches are clickier than the 'fixed' ones. I might sacrifice a few switches on a broken board to find out what's going on inside.

[khirin]

Futaba clicky switch is one of my favourite. So, I'd like to share some thoughts and findings here.

There is a rubber mat on top of 4 contact points at the bottom of the switch. The main reason why the switch does not click is because when it is old, the rubber sheet warped upward and prevented the plate spring to reach its full travel. Therefore, it cannot snap, cannot click.

Due to the above problem, many mistakenly believe that there is a linear version of the Futaba switch. I do not think so.

My methods of returning the clickiness is to cut open the switch, flatten the rubber mat (with clothes iron), bend the plate spring a little bit, assemble them back and tape the top and bottom shell with high strength fiber tape. I have met with some success. It clicks very nicely both downward and upward strokes, and highly tactile too.

[citrojohn]

Which Sejin board is that?

Sejin SKM-1040 - the famous variable left-handed one. Mine has the white sliders and nobody would describe it as linear (or quiet).

The loss of click seems to occur if the board has been sitting without use for a long period.

That describes what mine was like almost perfectly - it sat in a storecupboard for (probably) years, I got it out and used it for a few months then it got put away again, and I finally persuaded the owner to sell it to me after much judicious allowing-the-subject-to-drop. And yet I have this pleasant, fairly consistent click... either I've been lucky, or I'm only getting a fraction of the intended click!

[balotz]

Futaba clicky switch is one of my favourite. So, I'd like to share some thoughts and findings here.

There is a rubber mat on top of 4 contact points at the bottom of the switch. The main reason why the switch does not click is because when it is old, the rubber sheet warped upward and prevented the plate spring to reach its full travel. Therefore, it cannot snap, cannot click.

Due to the above problem, many mistakenly believe that there is a linear version of the Futaba switch. I do not think so.

My methods of returning the clickiness is to cut open the switch, flatten the rubber mat (with clothes iron), bend the plate spring a little bit, assemble them back and tape the top and bottom shell with high strength fiber tape. I have met with some success. It clicks very nicely both downward and upward strokes, and highly tactile too.

That's interesting - is it possible pressing the slider down very hard also flattens the rubber mat? I'm sure these switches were very tactile when new and it's a shame most people haven't experienced the switch properly.

[khirin]

That's interesting - is it possible pressing the slider down very hard also flattens the rubber mat? I'm sure these switches were very tactile when new and it's a shame most people haven't experienced the switch properly.

I guess so, but it depends on how old and badly shape the rubber mat is. Your method is simple and worths a try. I did not think of it first back then. Anyway, I'm surprised how nice the restored Futaba clickiness is. We can also control how loud or quiet of the clickiness by bending the two legs of the plate springs. The flatter the legs (less angles) = louder, but the switch may get stuck down. On the other hand, the more bent (a bit more angles) = quieter and the plate spring will have enough force to pull itself upward.

Here are a few pictures that might be useful.

From left to right, the plate spring, rubber mat and contact plate.

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The close-up of the contact plate, with 4 contact points.

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The fiber tape here is to secure the switch housing. I use this instead of super glue.

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[arkanoid]

Sejin seems to be the last company that produced Futaba switch keyboards. It is because they had a licence to produce Futaba switches, which was expired in ~2007. After years of no Futaba keyboard production, they made a last batch of SKM-1080 in 2007 just before the expiration. There's no more new Futaba switch keyboard as far as I can tell.

In my case, I could not fix the non-clicky switch just by hard pressing the slider. But it became clicky again after I desoldered them off the board, and the switch became far much louder after resoldering it back. Probably Futaba switches are very sensitive to the subtle angle change of their electrodes as their contact spring is affixed to the electrodes? This might be why even a new Futaba board has somewhat uneven sound among their switches.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

According to Futaba history:

1969
Foundry established for casting of press die set components.
Keyboard Factory established in Mobara, Chiba Prefecture, and manufacture and sale of key switches and related components began.

According to Sejin's website (built in Flash!):

"Sejin was established in 1972 as a joint venture with Futaba(http://www.futaba.co.jp) of Japan. Initially, our task was to supply keyboards, switches and vacuum fluorescent displays to the rapidly modernizing Korean high-tech industries."

1973.06
Started Keyboard S/W production and Export


The only mention of Sejin's existence has just been removed from Futaba's company history page. Back in December (last month) the history page noted:

1991
Manufacture of keyboards and related components transferred to Sejin Electron Inc.

You can see this here:

http://web.archive.org/web/201612200951 ... story.html

The TI-99/4A keyboard with MD series switches is marked both Futaba and Sejin, so Sejin were clearly involved early on.

I never saw anything about a licence to use the Futaba name, which is what this would more likely be. From what I understand, after the Alps–Forward joint venture ended, Forward were entitled to use the Alps name on switches for a few more years until that licence ended, after which they had to remove the Alps logos. The top shell never gained a logo after that, but the base—which peculiarly still had the old Alps logo—received the Forward "F D" logo instead.

[balotz]

Sejin seems to be the last company that produced Futaba switch keyboards. It is because they had a licence to produce Futaba switches, which was expired in ~2007. After years of no Futaba keyboard production, they made a last batch of SKM-1080 in 2007 just before the expiration. There's no more new Futaba switch keyboard as far as I can tell.

In my case, I could not fix the non-clicky switch just by hard pressing the slider. But it became clicky again after I desoldered them off the board, and the switch became far much louder after resoldering it back. Probably Futaba switches are very sensitive to the subtle angle change of their electrodes as their contact spring is affixed to the electrodes? This might be why even a new Futaba board has somewhat uneven sound among their switches.

I noticed the same sometimes after removing a board from storage, where it had been in a non-flat position.

Pressing the slider down definitely works, it's just a matter of force. I have 5 futaba boards and it works on every one. I now use a short (stubby) posidriv 2 / philips screwdriver (which fits perfectly into the mount), then with the keyboard on my desk, lean my weight into the slider, and hold for about 5 seconds.

A few times I pressed hard enough that the mechanism became stuck down, but they all popped back up in less than a minute.

The difference in clickyness / tactility is night and day, and the result is probably one of, if not the smoothest clicky switches in existence.

[arkanoid]

I haven't pressed the switch that much hard as I was worried about damaging pcb. Some Futaba switches have a slider that is opened in the center, so it would be possible to access the rubber mat using that (cross-shaped) hole.

I just checked two of my EAT-1010s. Earlier version has the opened slider, and later version has the closed slider.

[balotz]

I haven't pressed the switch that much hard as I was worried about damaging pcb. Some Futaba switches have a slider that is opened in the center, so it would be possible to access the rubber mat using that (cross-shaped) hole.

I just checked two of my EAT-1010s. Earlier version has the opened slider, and later version has the closed slider.

Mine are also open - I did try poking a narrow object down to see if I could flatten the mat but did not have any success. I've never opened any of these switches but wonder how they would function if the mat were removed.

[arkanoid]

I could not find the image of Futaba click LED switch in our Wiki. I don't remember where I took this photo from, but it looks like this. Thicker rim around the slider, but they felt similar.

Spoiler:

futaba_led.jpg (282.09 KiB) Viewed 8567 times

Cyan slider goes in and out faster than white slider. (left: cyan, right: white)

Spoiler:

cyan_and_white.gif (4.54 MiB) Viewed 8567 times

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Known about, but never seen. Futaba switch model/part/series/sub-series codes all begin with pairs of letters, and the "clicky switch" types are all MA codes so I guess they're MA series. The four model/series/sub-series known to date are:

MA41: bog standard switch (60±25 gf) — confirmed via a Sejin keyboard manual
MA42: like MA41, but heavy (80±25 gf)
MA71: like MA41, with an LED, and 10M instead of 50M lifetime
MA72: MA42+71 (heavy, LED, reduced lifetime)

So far, MA71/72 has never been seen.

The apparent specifications for MA42 and MA72 prove that linear versions exist. Supposedly! (The specs are listed on the wiki under [wiki]Futaba clicky switch[/wiki].)

The cyan version was covered on KBtalKing, but the page in question loads all weird now — cool3c screwed everything up a few months back at least.

Half of an achievement unlocked. (The other half if you find the keyboard!)

[Chyros]

Ooh, an LED version, never seen that one before. By the way, those sort of switch-to-switch force tests have to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when they're at an angle of each other, like in that GIF.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

My opinion about this switch: Amazing. Nice sound, Smooth as silk (at least mine is). The spacebar and shift keys lost their tactility, but I swapped them with Drück, Rollen, and Pause, and also replaced Return just to be sure. so it will not bother me there. It sounds kind of similar to Alps plate springs (as far as i can tell from the typing demo from Chyros' review). Yes, it's not that tactile, but made me type so lightly, that I can easily avoid bottoming out on it, tho I'm not a very fast typer (60-70wpm only), with touchtyping. By the way, it's only PCB mount. The spacebar, return, and Shift keys are plate mounted, and it alters and dulls the sound of the platesprings, and even the downstroke becomes clicky.

I hope my description was satisfying.

-Lynx

[Chyros]

Futaba clickies are a rather polarising switch; some really love them and others don't really like them, but I'm getting the impression no-one really seems to think it's "just a switch", interestingly enough. One thing everyone seems to be in agreement about is that they're super smooth, though.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Matias are keen to let people know that Cherry tactile switches are basically a linear switch with a bump. Something I may look into more once I go through Jacob's graphs:

The ITT ETL18 curve is a complete uneducated guess (requires more than just a pinch of salt) and the rest of the lines are all wrong too — they're just very vague examples!

Force curve concepts.png (28.31 KiB) Viewed 8505 times

Futaba MA is a very smooth switch indeed, and it's one that does strike me as feeling linear at the same time as tactile. Seeing the graph would be interesting.

The graphs above aren't remotely correct, but they just serve as a very faint suggestion of what I was thinking.

Another way to look at it is analogous to an ADSR envelope.

There must be certain fundamental characteristics of a force curve that can be used to classify a switch. Maybe LRFBO:

L: lead-in phase, which can be linear (for a linear switch or Cherry MX) or null (Alps SKCMAT)
R: rise phase: null (for any linear switch), and long or short and round or straight depending on the switch
F: fall phase: null (for any linear switch), null for anything with a vertical drop, or curved
B: rebound: null (for "path divert") or linear, or present for "path return"
O: overtravel: the last part after the rise+dip; linear for a linear switch

Cherry MX red is only LO. Alps SKCMAT is a very strange one: RFO (curve rise, curve fall, linear overtravel). I need to double-check where actuation occurs in SKCMAT as the F–O boundary doesn't occur where you think it should be.

So maybe: MX red = L(l)O(l), SKCMAT = R(c)F(c)O(l)

Just trying to spread some more brain cancer to the forum.

[balotz]

Futaba clickies are a rather polarising switch; some really love them and others don't really like them, but I'm getting the impression no-one really seems to think it's "just a switch", interestingly enough. One thing everyone seems to be in agreement about is that they're super smooth, though.

The switches which have lost their click feel pretty bad - almost linear, but like pressing on a sponge. It bears comparison to judging an ALPS switch based on a dirty rather than clean example

Having restored the futabas on my board, I'm certain they were originally designed to be very clicky.

[Touch_It]

I enjoy my board because it is very "clicky" the sound it makes is awesome. It honestly isn't very pleasant to type on. The keys feel quite harsh. Not exactly sure how to describe it. Fun to use once every few months but not a daily driver imo. Not sure if I have a bad example, or the switches are just not that great.

[seebart]

I enjoy my board because it is very "clicky" the sound it makes is awesome. It honestly isn't very pleasant to type on. The keys feel quite harsh. Not exactly sure how to describe it. Fun to use once every few months but not a daily driver imo. Not sure if I have a bad example, or the switches are just not that great.

Reminds me of amber Omron B3G-S series. Pretty mediocre switch with sensational feeback.