deskthority

[haiku comes here in the near future]

Why did I open this topic?

Why not?

:p

I loled

I will say MODS switches are really nice in the combination of compatibility (Being Cherry stem) and being smooth and slightly tactile. I cant say the same for Cherry Browns which are quite scratchy and non existent tactility in comparison.

At least they aren't rubber domes.

Oh, wait, I forgot about Topre

I'll have to out myself: I quite like having the mx blues

I like Cherry switches, just like all the others. But I am amused by people who tried just couple of them and telling they don't like them. To be honest they're very different from batch to batch. Sometimes you can get very crappy samples. I had Code keyboard with MX blues that refused to click on most keys, or my very old QFR with MX reds that never stopped to be scratchy like sandpaper.
But sometimes you are delighted - my 5 years old Filco with MX blues, metallic blue edition - amazing sound and feel, or one of my recently bought Filcos with MX Browns that was so tactile and smooth I opened switches to find out that they came lubed from factory, however it's not so perfect - pings like hell on most keys.
It has been confirmed that different machines and different batches produce results that vary greatly (in sound, tactility, weight, friction) by many people who deal with Cherry switches on a wholesale level.
Oh and don't forget they're pretty much industry standard that (re)popularised mechanical keyboards in recent times.

Agreed, the batch of MX Browns in my QuickFire Rapid are very smooth and are some of my favorite switches. But the MX Blacks in my G80-11900 are awful.

I have 2 boards with blues ... both feel completely different. But I think in my case age plays an important role as well (winkeyless G80 vs Poker2).

Mechanical keyboard is kind of a niche hobby, and this niche mechanical keyboard hobby world is basically a Cherry (or MX) world already because of its apparent domination. While I don't like copycats, some MX clones in Asia are having apparently more desirable performance consistently than those modern Cherries in recent years - this gives this old company at least a heads-up. Do these Cherry clones count by the way?

I won't say all the creation of a particular restaurant is all bad, I could definitely tell in the one time or two times of my dining experience there I might want to spit out the food in my mouth and leave. Look at McDonalds, they are so successful that the local old coffee shops, pastry shops and small restaurants had to give in and closed down for the McDonalds to expand and the McDonald loving people to have more chance to taste McDonald's food. If I don't like McDonald's food, it must be my mistake and bad taste. And of course, in the restaurant that I had spit out the food in my mouth, if I give them some more chance, they may serve me the most wonderful meal of my life some time in the future.

I started out (in 2015) by choosing MX reds for all my boards. Over the course of 18 months I learned that I like MX switches mainly for their ability to take all the SA and DSA keycaps out there. But that doesn't really make me a fan of Cherry switches or even the MX switch mechanism, only the MX mount.

Now, I don't dislike Cherry switches, it's just they're not my favorite anymore. If I can't get a board with TMX switches, then I'll settle for MX silent reds. That's a sort of back-handed appreciation I guess.

czarek wrote: ↑To be honest they're very different from batch to batch.

That's not singing Cherry's praises at all.

Okay, some more indisputable favorite things kind of from Cherry:

OK since we have this thread now might as well post the proper pics (again)...

Nice, So the topic has finally caught on (a bit).

Lynx_Carpathica wrote: ↑Nice, So the topic has finally caught on (a bit).

We did not have a dedicated Cherry appreciation thread up until now but why not...Wodan needs to post here... Of course our Cherry grandmaster photekq is absent from DT.

seebart wrote: ↑

Lynx_Carpathica wrote: ↑Nice, So the topic has finally caught on (a bit).

We did not have a dedicated Cherry appreciation thread up until now but why not...Wodan needs to post here... Of course our Cherry grandmaster photekq is absent from DT.

I just can't wait to get my hands on the MX Board 3 with MX Blues that I've got from germany. It'll get it in 2 weeks appearantly.

Slom wrote: ↑I have 2 boards with blues ... both feel completely different. But I think in my case age plays an important role as well (winkeyless G80 vs Poker2).

I would agree. Cherries have a very distinct feel. Some people say they are scratchy, but the ones I have (which are all at least 4-10 years old) all feel rather smooth. I have felt ones that felt like shit (and, sorry for Brown fans, they have all been Browns). Not a huge huge fan of linear switches, but the Tipro with Blacks I have feel really fairly nice. I like the weight of spring, feel nice and smooth. Not that it was broken in either (it was new old stock).

Blues are my favorite. I have mentioned this in a couple threads already, but I do have to admit, the ones I have in my Das Keyboard 3 (with red o-rings) feel so much nicer than the majority of Blue MX boards. Not to say I don't like blues, but with a good solid board. It's plate mounted, but not particularly loud or pingy and with the o-rings, I use it in an open office layout without being murdered. The Gateron Blue board I am typing on now is a fuckton louder. I mean, as in my wife asks me if I am angry while typing. It's plate mounted and has little to no flex, but the case is rather light overall, the switches are more open and the keycaps are the Chinese ABS doubleshot gaming ones that are pretty ubiquitous. Sure Gateron =/= Cherry, but excepting that the spring feels a little stronger (at least to me), they feel very similar... and I would imagine in design, the sound difference is mostly due to the board.

That being said, I have never typed on Blue Alps (White are good, but I think they feel a little soft), most non-click "tactile" I find not worth it, and I probably (from the sounds and comparisons) would love Matias clickies. I think that Cherry MX get unfairly placed in the "junk" pile by those who genuinely prefer quiet tactile or very light switches. Reds feel weird to me (like a slight step up from rubber dome) and may, objectively be a kind of crap compared to other lightweight switch designs. And Browns... yeah, I haven't felt a Brown I liked. Blues, Whites, and Greens feel good. Blacks totally depend on the board. Dunno... May like the Clears, if stiffer than Brown.

There is something nice with the Cherry MX "ecosystem"... There are a variety of switches commonly available (including some really decent "clones"), there are some decent mods the customize (lubing, damping or various types) and, perhaps most notably, lots and lots of keycap options.

pixelheresy wrote: ↑That being said, I have never typed on Blue Alps (White are good, but I think they feel a little soft) …

If white Alps switches feel soft, they're broken :P

Well if I get the AZIO keyboard I'll have my first Cherry MX clone switches.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑

pixelheresy wrote: ↑That being said, I have never typed on Blue Alps (White are good, but I think they feel a little soft) …

If white Alps switches feel soft, they're broken

Problem with Alps is availability. I went through tens of boards and all the switches felt crap (white alps, cream alps, black alps, old SKCC in apple board), scratchy, binding on off center presses, very inconsistent feel and sound. The only ones that felt pretty good were NIB Dell AT101 with black switches. I wouldn't use it as daily driver though because even if the switches feel ok, the rest of the board is nothing special, especially lasered keycaps.

I dislike one comparison of Cherries to McDonald's food. I much prefer comparing them to wine. And they're nothing special, they're decent table wine you get with your dinner. Something you can buy everyday at Tesco.
With this analogy, Topre would be more expensive wine you get at specialist shops. That's something that only guys who are into wine would appreciate, and majority would not tell the difference or even prefer Tesco wine.
Unfortunately as with wine, retro boards are mixed bag. Sometimes you may get something awesome, unmatched by anything readily available, but especially with very old ones, all you get is vinegar.

czarek wrote: ↑

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑

pixelheresy wrote: ↑That being said, I have never typed on Blue Alps (White are good, but I think they feel a little soft) …

If white Alps switches feel soft, they're broken

Problem with Alps is availability. I went through tens of boards and all the switches felt crap (white alps, cream alps, black alps, old SKCC in apple board), scratchy, binding on off center presses, very inconsistent feel and sound. The only ones that felt pretty good were NIB Dell AT101 with black switches. I wouldn't use it as daily driver though because even if the switches feel ok, the rest of the board is nothing special, especially lasered keycaps.

I dislike one comparison of Cherries to McDonald's food. I much prefer comparing them to wine. And they're nothing special, they're decent table wine you get with your dinner. Something you can buy everyday at Tesco.
With this analogy, Topre would be more expensive wine you get at specialist shops. That's something that only guys who are into wine would appreciate, and majority would not tell the difference or even prefer Tesco wine.
Unfortunately as with wine, retro boards are mixed bag. Sometimes you may get something awesome, unmatched by anything readily available, but especially with very old ones, all you get is vinegar.

I know what you mean and you are quite right which is the retarded part of this hobby. With those old Alps keyboards it's random luck what you're getting. Sometimes it may be worth the effort to restore the keyboard but often it's just a waste of time. I can respect when users here don't feel like spending their time and money seachring, which is of course why our marketplace is a slighty better option. About old MX's: I bought this months ago for cheap, it turns out the MX blues don't age so well either, there is inconsistency in key feel across the keyboard, something I never experienced with MX blacks.

keyboards-f2/unitech-k959-rev-2-1-t1084 ... ex#p318823

seebart wrote: ↑

czarek wrote: ↑

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑ I know what you mean and you are quite right which is the retarded part of this hobby. With those old Alps keyboards it's random luck what you're getting. Sometimes it may be worth the effort to restore the keyboard but often it's just a waste of time. I can respect when users here don't feel like spending their time and money seachring, which is of course why our marketplace is a slighty better option. About old MX's: I bought this months ago for cheap, it turns out the MX blues don't age so well either, there is inconsistency in key feel across the keyboard, something I never experienced with MX blacks.

keyboards-f2/unitech-k959-rev-2-1-t1084 ... ex#p318823

IMG_20160705_143455.jpg

Totally agreed. Here you're getting vintage cheap wine so it's even more luck based

Going further this route, you may be surprised by some off the shelf Tesco wine tasting really nice, and you can get some awful specialist wine (Topre). Just look around how many people are now modding their Topre boards. Silencing (because cheap plasticky noise standard Topre makes on upstroke), lubing (because oh so smooth Topre sometimes is scratchy on some keys, especially on a brand new boards), or replacing stems to fit Cherry keycaps because original Topre caps are virtually unavailable anywhere...
It really amuses me when people bash Cherries, and glorify Alps or Topre, or IBM. I like them all. I can enjoy any decent keyboard and I can find pros and cons in every switch. I don't have a favourite for some time though. Using Filco with MX Brown at the moment (used Filco with MX Blues last week, on a go I use GH60 with 62G Zealio, which replaced HHKB which doesn't work with my iPad). What am I going to use next week? We'll see. Maybe ErgoDox with ghetto Vintage Reds, or HHKB again, or Realforce, or Model M or V60 with quiet Matias if my fingers won't hurt. Definitely not Alps as I don't have any decent board with them (still have faith though, and still looking)...

Yeah I'm 100% on this, I don't believe there is any "end-game" keyboard or switch for me although a few come close and I'm not much into modding either. Alps SKCM can be great, it's like finding a vintage car that happens to be in really good condition. BTW I used to shop at Tesco quite a bit when I lived in the UK, but I never got any wine or Topre there.

seebart wrote: ↑Yeah I'm 100% on this, I don't believe there is any "end-game" keyboard or switch for me although a few come close and I'm not much into modding either. Alps SKCM can be great, it's like finding a vintage car that happens to be in really good condition. BTW I used to shop at Tesco quite a bit when I lived in the UK, but I never got any wine or Topre there.

Yes.

And a clarification with the white Alps thing. Not soft, but "yielding". They feel good up front and then seem to fall like a deflated balloon. There was just a little click in between. Not my cup of tea. Then again, they could have been crappy ones, since it was an old board.

There are so many factors (beyond personal preference) including the physical board and the condition of the switch (and in some cases the "vintage"). That being said, if we are in a position to argue for hours about switches in keyboards, we are better off than most people. I think more and more people are discovering mechanical stitches and if every single one switches from a rubber dome to the shittiest Cherrry switch, they are already far ahead of the pack. My wife admits that they feel real nice to type on, but she does 90% of her computing on the couch or in the bed these days, so using a keyboard is not her thing. Perhaps when she goes back to work...

It may be a shame the Alps Electric no longer produce switches. It may be sad that the "torchbearer" Matias, is a relatively small outfit and doesn't produce the volumes of Alps/Alps OEMs back in the day. But even in 2017, we can readily get relatively cheap mechanical keyboards of all sorts.

pixelheresy wrote: ↑It may be a shame the Alps Electric no longer produce switches. It may be sad that the "torchbearer" Matias, is a relatively small outfit and doesn't produce the volumes of Alps/Alps OEMs back in the day. But even in 2017, we can readily get relatively cheap mechanical keyboards of all sorts.

I only tried Matias switches once but they felt like a pretty bad clone of Alps SKCM which shocked me at the time since I had high hopes of buying a modern new Alps SKCM based keyboard.

czarek wrote: ↑

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑

pixelheresy wrote: ↑That being said, I have never typed on Blue Alps (White are good, but I think they feel a little soft) …

If white Alps switches feel soft, they're broken

...
I dislike one comparison of Cherries to McDonald's food. I much prefer comparing them to wine.
...

Okay, I don't think copycats of Cherry MX design such as Gateron etc do not look like these either.
Do not consume / touch too many nice keyboards before driving.

czarek wrote: ↑I like Cherry switches, just like all the others. But I am amused by people who tried just couple of them and telling they don't like them. To be honest they're very different from batch to batch. Sometimes you can get very crappy samples. I had Code keyboard with MX blues that refused to click on most keys, or my very old QFR with MX reds that never stopped to be scratchy like sandpaper.

That's what is generally referred to as shite quality control, and it's not something we normally associate with quality brands. In fact, it's pretty much the polar opposite of quality brands. I'm sure if you buy ten cheap-ass Tata city cars, at least one will be of acceptable build quality. On the other hand, if you buy ten Mercedes Benzes, ten of those will be of exceptional build quality.

If Cherry quality is hit and miss, that can be rephrased as "Cherry is crap", because when spending 75 cents per switch, well it better be consistently goddamn amazing. Or at least "really good". And it isn't. In a massdrop, about 8% of the Cherry blues I got came without a click. That's pretty abysmal.

The way I see it, Cherry is riding out its past glory, and skimping on quality control. I really hope they will get their act together, but as it is, it's "meh" at best.

Sigmoid wrote: ↑The way I see it, Cherry is riding out its past glory, and skimping on quality control. I really hope they will get their act together, but as it is, it's "meh" at best.

That's basically it, it's also probably the only way for them to compete with all the clones although I don't own any new Cherry keyboard so I can't really judge. I have not had any problems with my Ducky Zero DK2108 from 2014 though.

Sigmoid wrote: ↑

czarek wrote: ↑I like Cherry switches, just like all the others. But I am amused by people who tried just couple of them and telling they don't like them. To be honest they're very different from batch to batch. Sometimes you can get very crappy samples. I had Code keyboard with MX blues that refused to click on most keys, or my very old QFR with MX reds that never stopped to be scratchy like sandpaper.

That's what is generally referred to as shite quality control, and it's not something we normally associate with quality brands. In fact, it's pretty much the polar opposite of quality brands. I'm sure if you buy ten cheap-ass Tata city cars, at least one will be of acceptable build quality. On the other hand, if you buy ten Mercedes Benzes, ten of those will be of exceptional build quality.

If Cherry quality is hit and miss, that can be rephrased as "Cherry is crap", because when spending 75 cents per switch, well it better be consistently goddamn amazing. Or at least "really good". And it isn't. In a massdrop, about 8% of the Cherry blues I got came without a click. That's pretty abysmal.

The way I see it, Cherry is riding out its past glory, and skimping on quality control. I really hope they will get their act together, but as it is, it's "meh" at best.

Same can be said about new BS boards (Unicomp) or even Topre, which is no longer super smooth, especially on stabilized keys, keycaps have injection moulding marks, and Realforce cases have fading paint.
Such is life and with mechanical keyboards becoming a bit of mass market product, it's kind of inevitable. It's probably most visible with Cherries because they're relatively affordable and extremely popular. They're manufactured in many factories, in different locations which has to lead to some inconsistency between batches.
Don't get me started on new Alps which are non existent and Matias' switches have their own issues, like inconsistency not even within a board, but within a switch. Quiet tactile switch feels like heavy MX Brown (almost smooth, only slightly tactile) when pressed on a bottom of the keycap, and the same switch feels almost clicky when pressed on top. Come on.