Key Tronic foam and foil timeline

[Chyros]

This is something that's been annoying me for a while now, and I figured I'd ask around to see if we can figure out what's actually going on here. The wiki page for KT F&F switches ( wiki/Key_Tronic_foam_and_foil ) mentions that these switches were originally tactile, and that a linear version was introduced later by request:



This was apparently in 1981, and the keyboard portrayed clearly uses spherical keycaps. However, the only Key Tronic keyboards I know of with caps like that used the tall and seemingly older version, with the slider well rising up considerably. To my knowledge, these haven't been sighted in a tactile version, while the tactile version has only been see with the low-profile version, which uses cyclindrical keycaps, and which seems to be a younger design (probably a DIN-related redesign). I also can't imagine what kind of tactile sleeves they could possibly use to slide over keywells that tall. Or why they would first develop a low-profile design, then redesign it into a taller one, and then redesign it to a low-profile one again.

Taking all this into account, it makes no sense to me at all that the tactile design should be OLDER than the tall, linear version. So am I crazy, or are they just talking bollocks in that advert?

[seebart]

Good question I believe we've touched on this before and nothing has changed since we've still not seen the old tactile switch to my knowledge. My Key Tronic FF is from 1980 so it's from that same period but if you think about it we've not had too many old Key Tronics from the early 80's or older here. I havn't gone through all the old threads, I know mr_A500 had some knowledge on this topic but he's gone. Of course that advert proves nothing and fact is we don't know. If my 1980 FF had a tactile sleeve design those would have to be pretty large sleeves and I cannot imagine that working well.

Take a look at this though which came out eight years later:

Key Tronic Corp 　E03091007 AT　89/08 USA

http://mousefan.telcontar.net/image/keytro84.htm

facetsesame apparently even sold one here three years ago, again that keyboard is younger:

f-o-r-s-a-l-e-f58/ortek-mck-142pro-with ... ve#p162388

[Daniel Beardsmore]

That advert is from 1981, and from what little data I have, 1981 was still the era of the big switches:

http://telcontar.net/KBK/Keycombo/brand.php?id=10

Something seems very odd about that advert, but I don't have enough data yet.

[seebart]

Something seems very odd about that advert, but I don't have enough data yet.

What exactly seems odd?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

See above.

[seebart]

Well Tom's point is valid. Personally I don't mind if the Key Tronic foam and foil wiki page remians in it's current state mentioning the elusive old tactile switch but do we even know if it exists? Because that advert is worth little, it may be a fake or a draft or whatever.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Which switch is it even referring to? The advert is from 1981, and the only 1981 example in my database is the rare multi-block arrangement. It may not be referring to what we call "Key Tronic foam and foil", the one with discrete slider modules.

As with numerous other questions, the first step is to collate all available data. Most wiki entries aren't in my database as I was going to add those at the end. Little if anything from Sandy's site is included, as his new website is always around the corner.

The keyboard database idea is dead, so I'll leave you and Thomas to figure out some other non-wiki means of collating data as required for the purposes of this exercise.

[seebart]

...so I'll leave you and Thomas to figure out some other non-wiki means of collating data as required for the purposes of this exercise.

That's quite a task Daniel I'm really not sure if I can manage.

Just found this apparently it's from 1984 but that's the "low-profile" switch we already know:

Unbenannt.PNG (1.35 MiB) Viewed 7987 times

https://books.google.de/books?id=KAUpSd ... &q&f=false

[Chyros]

Ha, very nice. That's a pretty cool poster. Definitely seems like the low-profile version was designed to comply with that DIN standard, which makes sense as it's right in the age ballpark for it.

The block version had those square sliders, didn't it? Just like the magnetic reeds before? Which also came in blocks. I'm guessing that's probably the earliest version, then came the tall ones, then the low-profile ones. Just a theory of course, but for now I think it's okay.

[seebart]

Ha, very nice. That's a pretty cool poster. Definitely seems like the low-profile version was designed to comply with that DIN standard, which makes sense as it's right in the age ballpark for it.

The block version had those square sliders, didn't it? Just like the magnetic reeds before? Which also came in blocks. I'm guessing that's probably the earliest version, then came the tall ones, then the low-profile ones. Just a theory of course, but for now I think it's okay.

keyboards-f2/key-tronic-corp-serial-no- ... y%20tronic

I have another Key Tronic F&F that webwit gave me where the switches are very similair.

I just found this old "Interesting History of Key Tronic" mr_a500 thread:

keyboards-f2/interesting-history-of-key ... y%20tronic

Which switch is it even referring to? The advert is from 1981, and the only 1981 example in my database is the rare multi-block arrangement. It may not be referring to what we call "Key Tronic foam and foil", the one with discrete slider modules.

Exactly my point, the advert is worthless in that sense.

[snuci]

The block version had those square sliders, didn't it? Just like the magnetic reeds before? Which also came in blocks. I'm guessing that's probably the earliest version, then came the tall ones, then the low-profile ones. Just a theory of course, but for now I think it's okay.

My Beehive B100 from 1977 came with the traditional Key Tronic FF switches and tat is before the block style. I think that is the earliest I have. If you look at a 1978 Key Tronic patent it shows a block type switch with tactile features. For the record, my Datapoint 1500 is NOT tactile. However, since you guys didn't seem to interested in FF switches, and I've only posted a representative keyboard for each switch, I'll see what else I have. I think I may have one more Key Tronic square switch keyboard among many other normal FF keyboards. I'll see if any of them are tactile. I didn't really know what tactile was wen I started

[Chyros]

Wait, so the tall switches came BEFORE the block ones?? XD

[seebart]

Wait, so the tall switches came BEFORE the block ones?? XD

Suposedly but I've never seen any tactile ones.

However, since you guys didn't seem to interested in FF switches, and I've only posted a representative keyboard for each switch, I'll see what else I have. I think I may have one more Key Tronic square switch keyboard among many other normal FF keyboards. I'll see if any of them are tactile. I didn't really know what tactile was wen I started

NO, me Chyros and Daniel are VERY interested (right guys ) in seeing some more FF switches and I would hereby like to ask you to have a look thanks.

Besides the old tall F&F switch there is also the latter plate mounted one which is quite slimmed down compared to the tall old one:

wiki/Key_Tronic

450px-Keytronic_switch_detail.jpg (38.69 KiB) Viewed 7793 times

[Engicoder]

I would love to see more as well. Key Tronic had such a large presence in the early days. I have an old Kroy with a Key Tronic keyboard that I need to document at some point.

[Chyros]

Wait, so the tall switches came BEFORE the block ones?? XD

Suposedly but I've never seen any tactile ones.

However, since you guys didn't seem to interested in FF switches, and I've only posted a representative keyboard for each switch, I'll see what else I have. I think I may have one more Key Tronic square switch keyboard among many other normal FF keyboards. I'll see if any of them are tactile. I didn't really know what tactile was wen I started

NO, me Chyros and Daniel are VERY interested (right guys ) in seeing some more FF switches and I would hereby like to ask you to have a look thanks.

Besides the old tall F&F switch there is also the latter plate mounted one which is quite slimmed down compared to the tall old one:

wiki/Key_Tronic

450px-Keytronic_switch_detail.jpg

Wait, aren't these just the tall ones? I mean, I think I've been talking about these when I mentioned "the tall ones" Oo .

[seebart]

Wait, aren't these just the tall ones? I mean, I think I've been talking about these when I mentioned "the tall ones" Oo .

Sure that may very well be but then you are talking about the younger and shorter version. I know you will agree with me that these two are not exactly the same switch, both Key Tronic F&F though:

IMG_20151018_220103.jpg (958.4 KiB) Viewed 7759 times

IMG_20170515_181652.jpg (953.63 KiB) Viewed 7759 times

[snuci]

I took a quick look and didn't see any that were tactile. Looking at our wiki, I don't have any with a buckling rubber sleeve as shown here.



What I did find in the wiki was reference to a Sol-20 that doesn't seem to have any pics. The Sol-20 is in the 1977 to 1979 time frame so I'll check if my Sol-20's for serial numbers and take pics of the earliest one. These have nice key caps. The Dynalogic Hyperion also as the newer F&F key switches but these are not tactile either. It probably should be referenced from the Key Tronic page.

[seebart]

I took a quick look and didn't see any that were tactile. Looking at our wiki, I don't have any with a buckling rubber sleeve as shown here.

What I did find in the wiki was reference to a Sol-20 that doesn't seem to have any pics. The Sol-20 is in the 1977 to 1979 time frame so I'll check if my Sol-20's for serial numbers and take pics of the earliest one. These have nice key caps. The Dynalogic Hyperion also as the newer F&F key switches but these are not tactile either. It probably should be referenced from the Key Tronic page.

Great thanks. Turns out Key Tronic are a bit of a "mysterium" themselfs I guess. Personally I do not believe there is a older tactile-sleeve switch than the buckling rubber sleeve you linked and we've seen several times. That advert is realtive to the timeline.

[mr_a500]

I posted this ad years ago. At the time I said it was strange because I had never seen any (pre-81) Key Tronic tactile switches. I still haven't seen any.

It's odd that they say "the first Key Tronic capacitive keyboard with linear feel" when they obviously had earlier linear capacitive designs. (round pads on PCB, round or square slider, switch block or plate)

The only earlier Key Tronic design I've seen was a magnetic reed switch from 1970 and that too was linear.

[seebart]

I'm starting to think these tactile F&F switches are a ghost...

[compu85]

To add a little information to this post...

The Apple Lisa uses tall KetTronic Foam & Foil switches, the Compaq Portable (original) uses the short variety. Both are linear with the coil springs. The Lisa was introduced to the market in 1983, the same year as the Compaq. However, the Lisa started development much earlier, so I think that explains its older switch design.

Short switches designed for the coil spring have a little ridge to keep the spring in place, here's the Compaq (the keycaps are from a later Unisys branded KT board)

IMG_1390.JPG (192.82 KiB) Viewed 5767 times

The tall switches on the Lisa keyboard don't need a ridge for the spring to sit in. Note they're marked KeyTronic Spokane.

tall_sliders.JPG (153.63 KiB) Viewed 5767 times

The Dell Enhanced Keyboard is a rebranded KeyTronic "Professional Series" KB101. I have one from 1988. I also have a KeyTronic branded KB101-C with Windows keys, from 1995. The Dell and KT are not quite the same color, the keys on the Dell are a little more tan colored and the green of the double shot Alt key is darker on the Dell.

Dell_and_KB101-C.JPG (234.45 KiB) Viewed 5767 times

The switch assemblies on the Dell and KT are like the tactile one posted above... 2 little nubs keep the rubber sleeve in place. It is possible to swap the rubber sleeves out for springs to make the board completely linear, but the rubber domes can't be fitted to a board designed for springs. Something about the slider mechanism gets in the way and the keys stick when fully depressed.

Here's a comparison of the tall and short springs. The shorties are ~13mm uncompressed, the tall ones are almost 2cm.

Short-Spring.JPG (125.95 KiB) Viewed 5767 times

Tall Spring.JPG (137.24 KiB) Viewed 5767 times

Rubber sleeve.JPG (112.85 KiB) Viewed 5767 times

And here are the keycaps: Lisa, Compaq, Dell, KB101-C. Notice how much taller the Lisa ones are. All are double shot.

Keycap_front.JPG (175.37 KiB) Viewed 5767 times

Keycap_height.JPG (99.79 KiB) Viewed 5767 times

The shorter sliders, caps, and springs make a huge difference in the height of the keyboard. The Lisa's space bar is just over 6cm from the desk, the newer boards are 2.5cm.

Lisa-Height.JPG (149.31 KiB) Viewed 5767 times

KB101-Height.JPG (227.54 KiB) Viewed 5767 times

I owned a couple DEC VT100s in the past, their keyboards are about the same height off the desk a a Lisa keyboard. So the advert above touting the new low profile board makes sense.

PS: I had to rebuild the switch assemblies in the Lisa, Compaq, and Dell keyboards. What a colossal pain! The KB101-C worked OK out of the box (something I was hoping for with the Dell), so hopefully I can get lots of use out of it before it needs attention. Yes, I'm daily driving KT Foam & Foil boards, I like the lightness of the switches and solid feel of the boards (they don't flex at all, and the little bit of case creak is easily fixed with some fabric backed tape on the case seam). I greased the sliders on the Dell, it makes the whole board super quite to use. Probably the quietest board I've ever had, excluding one of those horrible flexible boards.
I got the KB101-C as new old stock, and I'm unsure if I'll grease the sliders on it yet. Kind of neat having a "vintage" keyboard that's not even worn in yet!

Thanks,

-Jason

[Sangdrax]

The block version with the square sliders is at least as old as 1976 because that's what's in the Sanders 8170 terminals.

[Touch_It]

Computer advertising back in the 70's and 80's was infinitely more cool than anything since. Makes me sad.