Red vs Black Switches

[iBro]

Hello all. After using brown switches for almost a month now, I've become increasingly agitated with this "tactile" switch. The small bump it provides is unnoticeable during normal typing, and thus provides me with little feedback on if my key has actuated or not. And this really got me thinking, why even use any kind of tactile switch? I don't see myself ever not bottoming out while typing, so I see little use in a switch that provides tactile feedback, since I will most likely bottom the key out anyway. So barring a buckling spring keyboard, I see very little reason to get a keyboard that provides tactile feedback. But if you have good reasons to try clears or blues please let me know, because I haven't found one yet.

But now on to the point of my post. Since I will most likely be purchasing a keyboard with linear switches I am looking for opinions on red switches vs black switches.

Reds I've heard are extremely light and have a pleasant linear feel to them. What I'm worried about though, is that they are too light. Which may lead to accidental key presses. Especially because I think of myself as a fairly heavy typist. It seems that if I try to hold my fingers back and press the keys with just enough force needed to actuate the key, it feels like my hands tense up and it actually becomes a more strenuous experience.

Which leads me to black switches. I will be typing a lot for school, and I have heard nasty rumors about fatigue when typing long things on black switches. But could these anecdotes be over-exaggerated? If I recall, black switches have a similar actuation force as a buckling spring, but you don't see many people complain about typing papers on a buckling spring.

So I ask you kindly Deakthority, for your opinions on your favorite linear switch. And please feel free to verbally abuse me if you strongly disagree on my stance on tactile switches.

This is basically a copy paste from my post on GH, but I thought I would share it here also because I seem to find more love for black switches on this forum. Maybe it could have something to do with with Deskthority being less wimpy, and manning up to the higher actuation force of the black switches?

[mintberryminuscrunch]

is the keyboard you are using plate or pcb mounted?

[nathanscribe]

I've used black, blues, reds and browns to various extents, as well as a couple of buckling springs - I have different keyboards more or less permanently hooked up to different machines for specific purposes, and definitely notice the change when I move round.

Personally I like blues for everyday easy-going stretches of work. They're light enough not to fatigue, and the tactility means I know I'm making contact audibly, which somehow helps. Not sure of the psychology or whatever behind it, but I like using blues.

Browns, I'm not sure. I have a Poker with browns, and when I just poke at it I don't get much of a feeling of quality or satisfaction - but I have used it for longer periods and it was fine. Any complaints I might have are probably not about the switch itself so much as the build of the board.

Blacks are what I had before I knew there was a difference between any key types. It's a 1989 Cherry G80-1000, so has had some use... I always found it a pleasure to type on, but bottoming out did tire the fingers after a while. With a little practice, not bottoming out makes things a little easier.

Reds are nice. They're light, yes, and easy to bottom out on, but it's not unpleasant to do so and typing on them feels quick and fluid.

As for buckling springs, I've got two IBM Ms that are broadly similar but one is a touch stiffer. I do a reasonable amount of writing on those, and I think the action does slow me down - which for what I'm doing might be a good thing. Long periods haven't been a problem for me, but they're certainly heavier switches than many others and I can see why some would find such a thing a hindrance.

I'd say it would come down to personal choice. Try as many as you can, and see what you think.

I'm not sure if PCB-mounted vs plate-mounted makes any difference; my old G80 is PCB mounted and so is the Poker, and I think the build of the boards - the position and quantity of supports for the PCB - is going to affect the overall feel, but as long as things are sturdy, I've not noticed any real sense that a PCB mounted set of keys should be any greater or worse than a plate-mounted set.

[trax]

Most members of this community (GH and DT) type on brown, blue and red switches (and topres).
If you type on a light switch for a long time, it will fatigue your fingers when typing on blacks, BS, clears but also on rubber domes.

Its just what you're used to, I was used to scissor switches (feel very close rubber domes) and jumped to reds.
They where to light for me, especially when gaming.

I want to use force to press down a key, and just let my finger rest and let the spring push the key back up.
However, letting your finger (at least mine) rest on a red, will press it (actuate the activation point, fancy talk).



I'm still new to mechanical keyboards too, so far Ive had reds (to light), blues (to light), browns (like you said, no point in tactility).
I recommend you to look into ALPS though, the force required to press them usually lays between blacks and browns, most of then are tactile though, something you might like when the 'bump' is heavier.

[rich0d]

Which leads me to black switches. I will be typing a lot for school, and I have heard nasty rumors about fatigue when typing long things on black switches. But could these anecdotes be over-exaggerated? If I recall, black switches have a similar actuation force as a buckling spring, but you don't see many people complain about typing papers on a buckling spring.

Only people with girly hands moan about blacks giving them fatigue whilst typing. Be a man, once you go black, you'll never go back.

I'm a sys admin who hates using the mouse (I find it counter-productive, so I ensure I use shortcut keys for as much as I can) - I also spend 90% of my personal time at home on my PC also, and I have yet to suffer from any form of ache etc owing to the keys and have used blacks for just over 2 months now..

[JBert]

If browns feel to light, blues and reds will likely do so as well. However, blues do have the advantage of their clicker; these provide a more noticeable tactile feeling but you will also need to put in some effort to avoid bottoming out.

If you feel like you've done enough typing on the browns and still don't like the feeling, you could try black or clear switches. I type on clear switches most of the time, but black switches might be more your thing because they're a tad lighter than clears.

[iBro]

My room mate let me use his Black Widow for a couple days and I really enjoy typing on the blues. I've decided to go buckling spring because I really enjoy the tactility and click from the blue keys, and having buckling springs will only amplify the things I enjoy about the blues, while being a tad stiffer which is too my liking.

[bitcrusher]

I used all the cherry switches and I like black the best, next would be clears then red.

[heliar]

i prefer the force gradation of Black over the lesser one of Red. And those gradation is all the feedback I need for feedback, so the tactile feedback of Clear, Brown and Blue, whether audible or not, is not really needed, indeed, they tend to slow things down.

All depends how fast you can or want to type. ABS is helpful, but not all drivers like them.

[sordna]

Browns and reds are very similar, they use the same spring. If you find the browns okay (not too light) and only want to get rid of the tactile bump, chances are you'll love the reds.

[iBro]

Browns and reds are very similar, they use the same spring. If you find the browns okay (not too light) and only want to get rid of the tactile bump, chances are you'll love the reds.

Well I didn't really find the browns too light but I have tried more mechanical keyboards out since I started this post. I have a buckling spring now and I love the weight of the keys. Obviously the black keys will feel different than the buckling spring, but I believe they require about the same force to actuate so that is why I'm choosing black over red.

Also, I really want a KBC Poker and right now the only linear switch that I can find it in is black. If it turns out blacks are too heavy for my liking, which I doubt will happen, I can always have someone swap the springs and make ghetto reds. I even have a person that would be willing to swap the entire switches out in favor of reds if I wanted to go that route.

And I really don't believe all the hate that black switches get in general. I understand that if you have been typing on reds and browns for a considerable amount of time that black switches may feel heavy to you at first. But my keyboard history mostly includes rubber domes and now a buckling spring, so my fingers have not yet had the chance to become weak.

But I have seen some love for the black switches on this sight, which even further encourages me to go with the black switches.

[Lenny_Nero]

Which leads me to black switches. I will be typing a lot for school, and I have heard nasty rumors about fatigue when typing long things on black switches. But could these anecdotes be over-exaggerated? If I recall, black switches have a similar actuation force as a buckling spring, but you don't see many people complain about typing papers on a buckling spring.

Only people with girly hands moan about blacks giving them fatigue whilst typing. Be a man, once you go black, you'll never go back.

I'm a sys admin who hates using the mouse (I find it counter-productive, so I ensure I use shortcut keys for as much as I can) - I also spend 90% of my personal time at home on my PC also, and I have yet to suffer from any form of ache etc owing to the keys and have used blacks for just over 2 months now..

I got a thread closed on GH for saying almost the same thing.

I have never had the problem with my fingers falling off when using black switches that many seem to.

More so I have never understood why some of the people so dead set against them also seem to like the BS IBM types which as I understand it are a greater weight ???

The problem as I saw it was that a few (this was something like 3 or 4 years back on GH) people did not like them, and I am sure they did not, but they said things to others and this feeling spread to the biomass, and in many cases there were users saying black switches make them feel faint, when I bet they had never even been in the same room as any.

But, I have seen this sort of thing on many other forums over the years, I have always called it the "hi post count problem" or more well known as The Emperor's New Clothes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empero ... ew_Clothes.

I come from many years of reading/posting to usenet (something like this but been around years before this flashy WWW thing) and there is no post count, others have to go on what you say (and have said),
It seems many people will believe something from someone with a higher post count over someone with a lower number even if it seems to not be right, these ppl seem to equate the greater count with a greater knowledge of whatever subject ?

Then something even stranger happened, reds started to be the new fashion.

Now all of these ppl that did not like the black switch suddenly started saying that this red switch was the best thing and all others were a waste of time ???.

I am not going to get into the old verses new black switch because I have many more 'vintage' black switched boards and 90% of my black switch use is with older boards, in fact I only have 2 new unused black switched boards, to me (and my force gauges) they seem to be 'heaver, or stronger' than the old switch, and I dont use either of them much so I dont feel I can say much about this area.

Its almost as if Cherry have reinvented the vintage black switch by giving it a slightly lighter weight and redder colour.

The best way I have found to find the best board for me it to use as many as I can and go from there.
Now I understand this is not a cheap, or easy way to do things, believe me I have spent the last 15 plus years doing so.

[pyro]

Browns make the Poker feel cheap.
I started with blue switches, since I thought the tactile and audible bump would help me to not bottom out. It didn't, I actually bottom much less on red switches (meaning rarely). I also felt the tensening in my hands sometimes, but that went away, so I stuck with reds every since.

Black switches may have the same actuation force as a Buckling Spring, but you usually press the key past the actuation point, so the overall force is higher. Depending on how far you press the keys down, you'll fatigue your hands faster. And while you can type lightly on black switches, they then feel like MY switches (like there were a thin foam matt instead of springs under the keys).

I'd recommend to buy a used keyboard. If you don't like it, you can sell it without much of a loss. If you do like it, you can always get a better one afterwards.

[iBro]

Well the Poker with black switches is at the post office waiting to be picked up. I went ahead and purchased one with black switches. I figure if I'm not happy with the black switches it won't be very hard to mod.

[GeorgeStorm]

Currently using a Poker with ghetto reds, and I must admit I'm quite liking them
Really wasn't sure I would after using blues, loving them, trying browns, and then going back to blues.
Am now trying to use the poker as my daily since I'm looking to sell my filco since I've spent too much on keyboards lately....

Let us know how you get on

[filimonovici]

Try the Cherry MX Clears. The force needed to press the key is equal to the force needed for blacks, and the tactile feedback is more intense than the browns. At first, I thought the clears are shit and didn't like them, but after using for a month or so a PLU ML-87 with reds, I understood the meaning and the pleasure of the clears.
Don't get me wrong, the reds are nice and smooth, but for a man, or someone that wants to feel the key, the clears are awsome.

[ripster]

This is basically a copy paste from my post on GH, but I thought I would share it here also because I seem to find more love for black switches on this forum. Maybe it could have something to do with with Deskthority being less wimpy, and manning up to the higher actuation force of the black switches?

This is also my theory....

2 x 2 Switch Matrix Personality V2.jpg (55.77 KiB) Viewed 20507 times

[filimonovici]

Nahhh!!
INMO, Mr. T should have represented the Cherry Blacks and the Alps. He was the brute force of the "A Team"
The bearded guy seems like a savage, exactly like the savage sound of the Cherry MX Blues.

[trax]

Nahhh!!
INMO, Mr. T should have represented the Cherry Blacks and the Alps. He was the brute force of the "A Team"
The bearded guy seems like a savage, exactly like the savage sound of the Cherry MX Blues.

You dont know technoviking?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju2GppVH ... re=related
1:30