IC and Massdrop: the Halo Switch Disagreement

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

30 Sep 2017, 15:40

just for clarity, kickstarter is a payment gateway

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chuckdee

01 Oct 2017, 01:00

matt3o wrote: just for clarity, kickstarter is a payment gateway
That is a mischaracterization of kickstarter. In fact, Kickstarter uses (and has used other) payment gateways.

Kickstarter is a fundraising platform.

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Elrick

01 Oct 2017, 07:25

InvidiousIgnoramus wrote:
bloo wrote:What a mess. What does this mean for the K-type?
At most that the switches in it won't be called Halo switches.
Then they should now call them "MD" Switches :D .

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

01 Oct 2017, 07:43

chuckdee wrote:
matt3o wrote: just for clarity, kickstarter is a payment gateway
Kickstarter is a fundraising platform.
different words, same thing.

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chuckdee

01 Oct 2017, 14:10

matt3o wrote:
chuckdee wrote:
matt3o wrote: just for clarity, kickstarter is a payment gateway
Kickstarter is a fundraising platform.
different words, same thing.
you're entitled to your opinion of course, but that doesn't make it true. They are two separate types of entities, and have different characteristics.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

01 Oct 2017, 18:43

they collect money. they don't do absolutely nothing more. they don't collect user info, address, etc. They don't offer logistics. They don't have warehouse. They barely have statistics.

All they do is to collect money from people and give it to you when the campaign ends keeping a cut for themselves.

It is very little more than a payment gateway. They have a huge visibility. I give you that.

oh and thank you for reminding me that I'm entitled of an opinion.

User avatar
chuckdee

01 Oct 2017, 19:24

matt3o wrote:they collect money. they don't do absolutely nothing more. they don't collect user info, address, etc. They don't offer logistics. They don't have warehouse. They barely have statistics.

All they do is to collect money from people and give it to you when the campaign ends keeping a cut for themselves.

It is very little more than a payment gateway. They have a huge visibility. I give you that.

oh and thank you for reminding me that I'm entitled of an opinion.
I was just trying not to be confrontational. Thanks for reminding me that is impossible on the internet. I've done research on this subject and looked at the statutes surrounding this. Your interpretation surrounding this is incorrect, though this has not yet been tested in a court of law. It will be at some point, especially as AGs in different states step in. It just hasn't as of yet.

Findecanor

08 Nov 2017, 00:53

So.... It seems Input Club worked around Massdrop by working directly with Kailh on new switches called Hako Clear and Hako True. These are based on Kailh's "Box" switches and the force graphs are a little bit different than the Halo's. The tactility seems a little sharper and Hako True has less preload than Halo True.
They have a pre-order open for switches: https://kono.store/products/hako-mechanical-switches

The WhiteFox Kickstarter still lists "Halo" switches though.

codemonkeymike

08 Nov 2017, 02:46

I like the "barbie flesh tan" color they used for the stem of the Hako True :)

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Elrick

08 Nov 2017, 07:36

Findecanor wrote: So.... It seems Input Club worked around Massdrop by working directly with Kailh on new switches called Hako Clear and Hako True. These are based on Kailh's "Box" switches and the force graphs are a little bit different than the Halo's. The tactility seems a little sharper and Hako True has less preload than Halo True.
They have a pre-order open for switches: https://kono.store/products/hako-mechanical-switches
Received their MassDrop version and sure enough they stuffed up all the stabilizers. It feels so tinny and cheap and above all else, so bargain-based every time you try to use any large keyed switch, it feels like you're scraping a rusty tin can.

I wouldn't put it past them to completely stuff up this order because it's their last one, hence for me those cretins calling themselves the "Input Club" are nothing more than greazy shysters, out to screw anyone that gets in their way, including all their MassDrop customers.

Just goes to show the level of deceit and disgusting behaviour they exhibit and then hoping anyone else would join any future Crowd Funding they would run.

Tasted their horrid keyboard and came away sick and nauseous, like eating out at a $2.00 dollar take-away, definitely not impressed with what these clowns produced and their cheapo standard keyboard, that cost way too much for what I actually received.

I don't blame MassDrop I blame these dirty, felching clowns known as "Input-Club", very suspicious and sorry I actually wasted good money on this lame keyboard. Has all the quality of a $30.00USD Flebay Keyboard that no one wants under any price tag, let alone the price I paid for it.

Input Club aka also known as the Shyster Scum :evilgeek: .

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

08 Nov 2017, 07:54

Elrick wrote: Input Club aka also known as the Shyster Scum :evilgeek: .
:o
m81qu.jpg
m81qu.jpg (27.54 KiB) Viewed 1571 times

User avatar
InvidiousIgnoramus

08 Nov 2017, 07:58

Elrick wrote:
Findecanor wrote: So.... It seems Input Club worked around Massdrop by working directly with Kailh on new switches called Hako Clear and Hako True. These are based on Kailh's "Box" switches and the force graphs are a little bit different than the Halo's. The tactility seems a little sharper and Hako True has less preload than Halo True.
They have a pre-order open for switches: https://kono.store/products/hako-mechanical-switches
Received their MassDrop version and sure enough they stuffed up all the stabilizers. It feels so tinny and cheap and above all else, so bargain-based every time you try to use any large keyed switch, it feels like you're scraping a rusty tin can.

I wouldn't put it past them to completely stuff up this order because it's their last one, hence for me those cretins calling themselves the "Input Club" are nothing more than greazy shysters, out to screw anyone that gets in their way, including all their MassDrop customers.

Just goes to show the level of deceit and disgusting behaviour they exhibit and then hoping anyone else would join any future Crowd Funding they would run.

Tasted their horrid keyboard and came away sick and nauseous, like eating out at a $2.00 dollar take-away, definitely not impressed with what these clowns produced and their cheapo standard keyboard, that cost way too much for what I actually received.

I don't blame MassDrop I blame these dirty, felching clowns known as "Input-Club", very suspicious and sorry I actually wasted good money on this lame keyboard. Has all the quality of a $30.00USD Flebay Keyboard that no one wants under any price tag, let alone the price I paid for it.

Input Club aka also known as the Shyster Scum :evilgeek: .
My, someone had a bad day.

Findecanor

08 Nov 2017, 09:03

Elrick wrote: Received their MassDrop version and sure enough they stuffed up all the stabilizers. It feels so tinny and cheap and above all else, so bargain-based every time you try to use any large keyed switch, it feels like you're scraping a rusty tin can.
You got the K-Type, huh? The stabilisers are not part of the switches, so they are a different issue.
HaaTa posted about the stabilisers on Geekhack:
Yeah, the stabs are probably my least favourite part about the K-Type...

We begged MD for months to fix them and it was passed off as not being important, and that was long before the Halo switch thing started. The main problem is that they didn't source the correct diameter wire for the stabs they chose.
Luckily, both switches and stabilisers appear to be swappable from the top which means that you should be able to replace them with genuine Cherry plate-mounted stabilisers without too much problem.
Was there some kind of switch-pulling tool included? Once the switch is pulled out, each stabiliser post has a clip that can be loosened with your fingers. On the opposite side of the clips is the wire. Once the clips are loosened, you should be able to wiggle the assembly out by moving the wire through the horizontal slot in the plate.
Edit: The stabilisers don't come out the top... All switches have to be pulled out first.
Edit 2: Gah. Idiots misinformed. They should come out from the top like regular Cherry stabilisers.
Elrick wrote: ... their cheapo standard keyboard, that cost way too much for what I actually received.
How much did you pay?
You do know that a keyboard case made of solid anodized aluminium would cost at least $100 USD alone, and that would be the cheapest of the cheap bargain deal from China. There are cheaper keyboards with aluminium top that may be somewhat similar in appearance but those are often just made from sheet metal with a plastic bottom.
Then add at least $40 USD for keycaps made of PBT - if you go without letters on them. Other keycaps of PBT for backlighting are almost nonexistent. Usually, gear of this build quality costs a whole lot more than $200 USD.

But yeah, sucks about the stabilisers.
Because you are in Australia, I can also see how shipping and tax could have been a bitch. I hope that Massdrop declared the correct value (or less...) on the customs declaration form -- they have not always done that. :x
Last edited by Findecanor on 09 Nov 2017, 17:13, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

08 Nov 2017, 09:18

Findecanor wrote: So.... It seems Input Club worked around Massdrop by working directly with Kailh on new switches called Hako Clear and Hako True. These are based on Kailh's "Box" switches and the force graphs are a little bit different than the Halo's. The tactility seems a little sharper and Hako True has less preload than Halo True.
That Hako Clear force graph — that looks really rough.

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

08 Nov 2017, 09:24

Massdrop and their utter shit crappy turd stabilizers.
I usually only get them in their kits and just dump them.

Still, this was offered and sold as an I:C product and now they shift the blame for weak spots to Massdrop.
Claiming that a CNC alu case is automatically 100$+ and then adding hypothetical 40$ for keycaps is a bit short sighted. We‘ve seen vortex PBT doubleshots for less than that ...

I‘m glad I didn‘t get this keyboard because I didn‘t like the way it was marketed beforehand. This trend towards marketing some China MX clones as the salvation just because they got a special spring and and slider is such snake oil business.

Seeing that reknown veteran DT members join that cash grab gives me serious doubts. Do you realy think a new stem shape and a different spring turns a 40€-keyboard-switch into a 200€-keyboard-switch?

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Daniel Beardsmore

08 Nov 2017, 19:09

At least now I get the joke about Hako: はこ , meaning box or case. It appears to be a pun based on the use of box switches.

[Edit: 箱 is the word for box, while はこ is the phonetic spelling.]

User avatar
Elrick

09 Nov 2017, 00:07

Wodan wrote: Massdrop and their utter shit crappy turd stabilizers.

I‘m glad I didn‘t get this keyboard because I didn‘t like the way it was marketed beforehand. This trend towards marketing some China MX clones as the salvation just because they got a special spring and and slider is such snake oil business.
Only through 'suckers' do you get the reality of the situation, I just got mad when I plugged it into the PC and tried to use it. Really cheap quality and well below the standard expected.

I think any standard Leopold keyboard sold today gives you a far better feeling when typing, compared to this "Gamer-like" keyboard designed for kiddies.

Shouldn't complain, since obviously I dumped this keyboard towards the minions to have fun, they will probably pour juice over it before dumping it into the bin where it belongs :lol: .

pomk

09 Nov 2017, 13:12

Wodan wrote: Massdrop and their utter shit crappy turd stabilizers.
I usually only get them in their kits and just dump them.

Still, this was offered and sold as an I:C product and now they shift the blame for weak spots to Massdrop.
Claiming that a CNC alu case is automatically 100$+ and then adding hypothetical 40$ for keycaps is a bit short sighted. We‘ve seen vortex PBT doubleshots for less than that ...

I‘m glad I didn‘t get this keyboard because I didn‘t like the way it was marketed beforehand. This trend towards marketing some China MX clones as the salvation just because they got a special spring and and slider is such snake oil business.

Seeing that reknown veteran DT members join that cash grab gives me serious doubts. Do you realy think a new stem shape and a different spring turns a 40€-keyboard-switch into a 200€-keyboard-switch?
I don't think that I:C could block the sale or production, so what do you think that they should have done to solve the situation if massdrop is ignoring their request on not having shitty stabs? The boards were manufactured by MD, not I:C and if MD decide to make it out of second rate shitty components there is nothing that they can do, especially if the contract that they have with MD does not allow them to block the production based on QC issues.

And the answer of course is to stop all collaboration with MD, as they do not share the same sense of quality.

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chuckdee

09 Nov 2017, 13:21

pomk wrote: I don't think that I:C could block the sale or production, so what do you think that they should have done to solve the situation if massdrop is ignoring their request on not having shitty stabs? The boards were manufactured by MD, not I:C and if MD decide to make it out of second rate shitty components there is nothing that they can do, especially if the contract that they have with MD does not allow them to block the production based on QC issues.

And the answer of course is to stop all collaboration with MD, as they do not share the same sense of quality.

Maybe to say something ahead of time? Instead of in response to people's complaints? That's the part that seems like throwing someone under the bus.

pomk

09 Nov 2017, 13:49

chuckdee wrote:
pomk wrote: I don't think that I:C could block the sale or production, so what do you think that they should have done to solve the situation if massdrop is ignoring their request on not having shitty stabs? The boards were manufactured by MD, not I:C and if MD decide to make it out of second rate shitty components there is nothing that they can do, especially if the contract that they have with MD does not allow them to block the production based on QC issues.

And the answer of course is to stop all collaboration with MD, as they do not share the same sense of quality.

Maybe to say something ahead of time? Instead of in response to people's complaints? That's the part that seems like throwing someone under the bus.
So they should have a month or two ago said something like: ”Massdrop has decided to not to adhere to our quality standards when it comes to stabilizers and we cannot quarantee that you will receive a quality product. If this is a problem for you we suggest that you contact massdrop and ask for a refund.” ? Would that not be the same (throwing someone under the bus)? Or do you have a better example of how they should have handled it?

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chuckdee

09 Nov 2017, 14:04

If they'd tried to advise Massdrop, and Massdrophadn't listened, and they'd received their production copies and seen the same issues- then yes that would be acceptable. I'd probably add something along the lines of how to change your stabilizers to aftermarket, but that wouldn't be strictly necessary.

And no, it's not bussing at that point. There's a difference between these two scenarios:

Customer: "I have a problem that hasn't been told to us before it was released."
IC: "It's their fault!" Pointing fingers and all.

And

IC: "We tried to work with Massdrop, but they said it wasn't an issue. After testing, we thought it was an issue, so wanted to inform our customers about it."
Customer: "Oh, ok. We'll judge for ourselves, but thanks for the heads up."

That's just my opinion. But information after accusation always seems like bussing and deflecting blame to me rather than giving a heads up.

pomk

09 Nov 2017, 14:19

Yeah, I agree that there is a difference, though whether massdrop would have given refunds is a whole another story. From the lack of any comment from MD on the stab issue I gather that what I:C said is accurate and then the only failure on I:Cs part is that they did not publicly denounce the quality of the massdrop made product ahead of time.

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chuckdee

09 Nov 2017, 16:15

pomk wrote:Yeah, I agree that there is a difference, though whether massdrop would have given refunds is a whole another story. From the lack of any comment from MD on the stab issue I gather that what I:C said is accurate and then the only failure on I:Cs part is that they did not publicly denounce the quality of the massdrop made product ahead of time.
I'm not trying to assign nor absolve blame. I'm just talking about my perception of what they did do. To me, it seems like they were pointing fingers rather than accepting responsibility.

pomk

09 Nov 2017, 16:27

chuckdee wrote:
pomk wrote:Yeah, I agree that there is a difference, though whether massdrop would have given refunds is a whole another story. From the lack of any comment from MD on the stab issue I gather that what I:C said is accurate and then the only failure on I:Cs part is that they did not publicly denounce the quality of the massdrop made product ahead of time.
I'm not trying to assign nor absolve blame. I'm just talking about my perception of what they did do. To me, it seems like they were pointing fingers rather than accepting responsibility.
I don't think that they should take responsibility from a production decision made and enforced by MD. It is a product produced by MD and not I:C, I:C only designed it and tried their best to QC it to their standards. MD obviously did not want to make a quality product, or else they would have changed the stabs even without I:C telling them that they are shitty.

edit: yes they should take responsibility for not denouncing the MD produced K-type ahead of time.

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chuckdee

09 Nov 2017, 17:25

pomk wrote:
chuckdee wrote:
pomk wrote:Yeah, I agree that there is a difference, though whether massdrop would have given refunds is a whole another story. From the lack of any comment from MD on the stab issue I gather that what I:C said is accurate and then the only failure on I:Cs part is that they did not publicly denounce the quality of the massdrop made product ahead of time.
I'm not trying to assign nor absolve blame. I'm just talking about my perception of what they did do. To me, it seems like they were pointing fingers rather than accepting responsibility.
I don't think that they should take responsibility from a production decision made and enforced by MD. It is a product produced by MD and not I:C, I:C only designed it and tried their best to QC it to their standards. MD obviously did not want to make a quality product, or else they would have changed the stabs even without I:C telling them that they are shitty.

edit: yes they should take responsibility for not denouncing the MD produced K-type ahead of time.
And that's cool. I'm just talking about my opinion from seeing it. I think they should.

If they know that there are defects, I'm sure that they can come up with something that looks a bit less like grade school finger pointing and trying to deflect blame. I really don't care about the blame- either assigning nor absolving.
But I don't really want to waste the mindshare trying to do the PR job that they should have from the moment that they were aware of it.

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Elrick

09 Nov 2017, 23:58

pomk wrote: Yeah, I agree that there is a difference, though whether massdrop would have given refunds is a whole another story. From the lack of any comment from MD on the stab issue I gather that what I:C said is accurate and then the only failure on I:Cs part is that they did not publicly denounce the quality of the massdrop made product ahead of time.
The reason why I haven't gone on a public Witch Hunt at MD's website, is simply due to the fact that I do happen to waste money on garbage, I admit that here to everyone.

It isn't worth what's left of my valuable time to complain to MD because I am NOT spending anymore money sending it back to the US for any so-called refund.

It would mean more wasted money out of my pocket, which I won't get compensated for. True, you do accidentally buy crapily made products and you have to wear it but I won't stay quiet nor approve of those IC Felchers, for what they produced.

Also trying to do the infamous "Politician shuffle" of passing the blame onto MD fully, is beneath any sane person to make here because MD didn't make nor design this keyboard from the get go, it was Input's Club responsibility and they FAILED big time.

neuronbasher

10 Nov 2017, 01:54

Just for the sake of providing a counterpoint, I am very happy with my K-Type (and Halo Clears), with exception of the stabilizers. I like the feel of the switches, I like the design and weight of the case, and the new client-side configuration tool is very usable and flexible.

I could decide that the problematic stabilizers outweighs the positive aspects of the rest of the keyboard, but I'd rather just replace the stabilizers instead of whining about it and calling names.

Maybe that's just me, though.

User avatar
Elrick

10 Nov 2017, 10:39

neuronbasher wrote: I could decide that the problematic stabilizers outweighs the positive aspects of the rest of the keyboard, but I'd rather just replace the stabilizers instead of whining about it and calling names.

Maybe that's just me, though.
For me it was far more than stabilizers sunshine, the casing is split and in fact it comes apart quite easily if you lever it with a flathead-screw driver. There are six hex bolts missing on the back side which I thought is a design feature but maybe not.

There were no extra hex bolts (spare) inside the packaging anywhere, hence my thinking that is how they designed this casing.

The switches of course don't work reliably at all, in fact I think the keys that actually work are the Q, W, T, K, H, C, M ones but when I try to type anything lots of words go missing on the screen.

So instead of staying quiet - YES, I will let everyone know of the situation because keeping quiet about this, only helps to encourage these IC felchers to carry on with business as usual.

That's just me of course :) .

pomk

10 Nov 2017, 11:38

Wow, quite the keyboard indeed. I’m glad that they did not have an ISO option :F

Findecanor

11 Nov 2017, 00:03

Elrick wrote: There are six hex bolts missing on the back side which I thought is a design feature but maybe not.

There were no extra hex bolts (spare) inside the packaging anywhere, hence my thinking that is how they designed this
casing.
Huh? In this video there are no missing bolts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTyHlXM0j-A
I count eight of them on the back.

I think you should get in touch with Massdrop and have it replaced or even get a refund. With missing bolts and unreliable keys -- that makes the whole keyboard suspect, and I would say that that gives you a good reason to request a replacement or refund. Just use polite language and don't mention the stabilisers so that you never veer away from getting their sympathy.

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