Suggestions for an Inexpensive New or Used Japanese Layout?

[twinrotor]

This hunt became rather overbearing quickly. There are so many choices, I do not know where to begin. I know little about the Japanese language, other than there are three types of writing. I have no idea what is common/needed on a keyboard, other than what I've been looking at. So please give your suggestions/opinions!

A friend of mine is working on learning Japanese and I thought a keyboard would be a neat gift. Only requirement is that its fairly easy to find, inexpensive, and mechanical of course. I think he would like an older keyboard, but a new keyboard would be fine as well. Switch type isn't critical, as he has only ever used a dome keyboard. I would like it to be tactile. He likes my blue Alps keyboard, but I'm not looking to spend blue Alps money

Thanks for the help!

[Dingster]

I think Japan uses JIS layout, such as this one https://www.massdrop.com/buy/topre-real ... t-keyboard but its topre so its pricy. EDIT: just saw the inexpensive in the title. my apologies

[Menuhin]

Hi twinrotor,

What do you mean by "inexpensive"? It's better to state a price range.

The mechanical keyboards that the Japanese produced have become extinct, as you heard of the old Alps keyboards already.
What comes to my mind immediately is the HHKB JP version, at a price of about $250 new - and Japanese people use them, with all the relevant key legends. An old logo Dell AT101, those made in Japan will be north of $150 approaching $200 or more, but then those normal versions do not have relevant Japanese legends.

One option is to get this NeXT non-ADB keyboard with Katakana legends:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282780377913

But normally Japanese keyboards sport Hiragana legends instead of Katakana. They are equivalent sets of alphabets representing the exact same arrays of vowels and consonants, but Hiragana is used for local words and phrases, while Katakana is used in foreign words and phrases.

If you get this unique NeXT keyboard (that has complicated / SKCM Alps black switches inside, I believe), you still need a converter. That can be bought at $80 or built in about $15 or less.

[twinrotor]

Cheapest possible? I know the general range of $30-50 Chinese boards are not ideal, but I also did not know the market on the IBM/Dells had increased as much as it has. It seems as soon as some one mentions alternative keyboards for cheap, the prices skyrocket. The information I based my cheapness older keyboard is apparently dated (less than a year, reported M/Bigfoots for $40-80). As you said, the market has now approached the price arena of a new "entry level" keyboard. I'm not too worried about switch feel, but I don't want the keyboard/switches to fail in a stupid short time either.

The NeXT is close to what I would consider. Probably on the high end, but he's worth it, sometimes I guess I would need to poke at him a little and figure out which is preferable on key legends. I think he would like either. I have absolutely no qualm with building more converters. His PC also has PS/2 support as well, but he might would like to use it with his notebook as well.

So unless there is some other new platform around that is available in a Hiragana or Katakana layout around the same price or cheaper, I'll keep an eye on the NeXT. Alps are not necessary at all! He likes my blue Alps, but I do realize they are "premium priced" switches. I've never used a brown either, so I'll do a bit of research to see how they compare. He would crap his pants over an Alps board. I don't think he would really notice much difference between Alps or say Cherry, for example, unless the keyboards were sitting next to each other. He would just notice the difference between a dome and mechanical tactile bump, which I also realize can be similar depending on switches..... Oh it makes my head hurt.

[Menuhin]

I would say blues Alps and brown Alps are that the top of the sought after list, just slightly after the "legends" such as striped ambers and neon greens which do not necessarily perform better.

So it's like he got a head start in mechanical switches, but he felt in love with a Ferrari right a way.

If you also consider doing DIY like a 60% or 68%, you can get a board with vintage Cherry blacks (linear, and Cherry MX has no much in its history to do with Japanese if I am not mistaken, but I highly recommend) paired with those good looking "sushi"-featuring EnjoyPBT Japanese legend dye-sub PBT key caps. Can be completed within $150 if you look carefully, and no converter needed. But those EnjoyPBT Japanese caps are Chinese invention just as a caveat, not a native HHKB JP or Japanese RealForce with those smaller spacebar packed with language related shortcuts on both sides, e.g. switching between Hiragana and Katakana. No biggy though, these features on the OSs are usually have adopted some shortcut combos on a "normal" ANSI keyboards nowadays. Japanese are ISO beings, e.g. with the big ass inverted J-shape enter key. Are you sure that is okay for your friend too?

$120-$150 is about the price you can get something good, and if you wait on a bit, some real bargains may pop up too.

[twinrotor]

I don't mind DIY, but TKL is about as small as I think he would want. He does game a little and it would be mostly typing. Maybe a 68%, but I couldn't say what he ultimately would like. I'll just have to kinda pick at him, without giving myself up. I'd like it to be a surprise. I like the idea of a newer controller with the modifiers as well, so hes not stuck into a single Japanese layout. He does use Linux and Windows; I'm only familiar with 2nd layouts with Windows. I'm gonna assume those modifiers you mentioned are contained in the keyboard logic?

Hard to say about the ISO layout.. He is way to young to have experienced many, if any. I've seen very few, being in the middle of the US, mostly on pre 1990 machines.

I have a Alienware 11" notebook that is pretty much a 60%. I'll make up something to get him to type on it and give me his opinion. Its actually a better representation of a a linear switch than most notebooks. Has one of the longer traveling keys I've seen on a small notebook. He use to own a 13" HP Stream, but its keyboard is terrible, period... I can ask him about the spacing though.. See if he was proficient with it.

Thanks again for the ideas!

[Happy Idiot Talk]

What about something like the new old stock IBM Alps keyboards available from Mendelson's for a pretty good price? I have one of the Chinese versions, and they're pretty nice.

http://meci.com/ibm-6112884-japanese-ke ... yping.html

[twinrotor]

What about something like the new old stock IBM Alps keyboards available from Mendelson's for a pretty good price? I have one of the Chinese versions, and they're pretty nice.

http://meci.com/ibm-6112884-japanese-ke ... yping.html

Ty for that link. That's the prices I was seeing before. I'll have to review which versions are which.

[Darkshado]

Japanese are ISO beings, e.g. with the big ass inverted J-shape enter key

You're mixing a few things up... JIS keyboards share the "vertical" enter with ISO, they do not use the "big-ass Enter", backspace (JIS 1u, ISO 2u) and the shift keys are different (compared to ANSI, ISO splits the left shift, JIS the right).

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_ ... NT_JIS.png

[davkol]

There are multiple input methods for Japanese.

Typically, "standard" Japanese keyboards (from the 90s onwards) had a few extra "alphanumeric" keys on the right (thus shorter Backspace and Shift keys) and a couple of modifiers on either side of the spacebar—for switching scripts, more or less. These don't really work in modern systems out of the box without a properly configured Japanese input.

That said, the Japanese tend to move away from these specialized input methods and increasingly utilize de facto US QWERTY to type romanized Japanese and have it converted into kana/kanji in software. Then, no special keyboard is necessary.

I've looked into getting a keyboard with a Japanese layout, although for different reasons, but without much luck. Modern keyboards are limited to Topre Realforce 91/108, HHKB JP, localized Matias, Filco Majestouch and more recently a semi-custom Varmilo. Nearly all of them have to be imported and end up costing north of $200. Other options include a localized laptop keyboard (mac/thinkpad), scrounging Yahoo Auctions with a proxy, or building a custom keyboard (getting a plate is tricky, though, and most PCBs don't support a shorter right Shift on the outer side).

[twinrotor]

There are multiple input methods for Japanese.

Typically, "standard" Japanese keyboards (from the 90s onwards) had a few extra "alphanumeric" keys on the right (thus shorter Backspace and Shift keys) and a couple of modifiers on either side of the spacebar—for switching scripts, more or less. These don't really work in modern systems out of the box without a properly configured Japanese input.

That said, the Japanese tend to move away from these specialized input methods and increasingly utilize de facto US QWERTY to type romanized Japanese and have it converted into kana/kanji in software. Then, no special keyboard is necessary.

I've looked into getting a keyboard with a Japanese layout, although for different reasons, but without much luck. Modern keyboards are limited to Topre Realforce 91/108, HHKB JP, localized Matias, Filco Majestouch and more recently a semi-custom Varmilo. Nearly all of them have to be imported and end up costing north of $200. Other options include a localized laptop keyboard (mac/thinkpad), scrounging Yahoo Auctions with a proxy, or building a custom keyboard (getting a plate is tricky, though, and most PCBs don't support a shorter right Shift on the outer side).

Thank you for that information! That explains why I'm finding, what I'm finding. So I guess it would be more of a novalty than anything, but I think he would still enjoy it.

Also, I'm not limited to a mechanical board. If there were more options in the late 90's, early 2000s, I would go for a tactile dome.

[davkol]

Frankly, my first choice would be a JP replacement keyboard for a thinkpad along with an USB converter (e.g., SK-8855 with this—hopefully, it'd work properly).

Unless you want to spend way too much time browsing Yahoo auctions and setting up a proxy.

[twinrotor]

That's pretty neat. I've never come across one before. Thanks davkol!

[Menuhin]

Japanese are ISO beings, e.g. with the big ass inverted J-shape enter key

You're mixing a few things up... JIS keyboards share the "vertical" enter with ISO, they do not use the "big-ass Enter", backspace (JIS 1u, ISO 2u) and the shift keys are different (compared to ANSI, ISO splits the left shift, JIS the right).

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_ ... NT_JIS.png

Sure if you say an inverted J, as in what I originally said, looks like the "big-ass Enter".

A style of old-school enter key, i.e. what you called the "big-ass Enter" is a left-and-right-side-flipped mirror-image of capital letter 'L' - some people say that is 'J'.
JIS and ISO enter keys - I would describe it as inverted 'J', i.e. flipped upward when 'J' is printed on a piece of paper - so it is also like rotating 'L' in 180°.

[Menuhin]

... I would go for a tactile dome.

What.....? You imply there can be a linear dome?

Yahoo Auction is a bottomless pit! Stay away from it - as far as you can!

This Japanese Filco with MX browns is $144.99 shipped from Tokyo.



I didn't suggest it because you are on the blue Alps (of a totally different class) and on vintage stuff. But this $144.99 is a very simple solution, perhaps even can have a full refund return if your friend doesn't like it - the seller should be okay with it especially if the packaging has no seal to be broken.

By the way the Japanese IBM keyboard has Katakana legends - like the NeXT keyboard.

[twinrotor]

... I would go for a tactile dome.

What.....? You imply there can be a linear dome?

Yahoo Auction is a bottomless pit! Stay away from it - as far as you can!

This Japanese Filco with MX browns is $144.99 shipped from Tokyo.

.....

I didn't suggest it because you are on the blue Alps (of a totally different class) and on vintage stuff. But this $144.99 is a very simple solution, perhaps even can have a full refund return if your friend doesn't like it - the seller should be okay with it especially if the packaging has no seal to be broken.

By the way the Japanese IBM keyboard has Katakana legends - like the NeXT keyboard.

The keyboard isn't for me; my blues will never leave my desk It will be a gift for my daughter's boyfriend who is obtaining a minor in Japanese at school. I've got him interested in older stuff, but I thought something in JIS would be a neat gift. He likes my blues, but even if he was my son-in-law, I probably still wouldn't spend that kinda money

And no, I'm not really interested in doing the whole proxy/Yahoo thing..

I really appreciate you guys helping out. Saves a ton of time!

[citrojohn]

Cherry made some JIS-layout keyboards, though I suspect they're quite scarce outside Japan. They're the G80-3600LYCJA (probably rare - our wiki says 3600s were looted for their early Reds) and the G80-11802LPAJA. (NB, both these models also came in American ANSI layouts - look for the JA on the end of the article number.)
I've also seen a mention of a G80-11900 with Japanese layout, but I don't know the full number.

There are also G84s with ML switches: the G84-4100PPAJA and the G84-4402PRAJK (well, I think those are hiragana on the caps...)

[andrewjoy]

This hunt became rather overbearing quickly. There are so many choices, I do not know where to begin. I know little about the Japanese language, other than there are three types of writing. I have no idea what is common/needed on a keyboard, other than what I've been looking at. So please give your suggestions/opinions!

A friend of mine is working on learning Japanese and I thought a keyboard would be a neat gift. Only requirement is that its fairly easy to find, inexpensive, and mechanical of course. I think he would like an older keyboard, but a new keyboard would be fine as well. Switch type isn't critical, as he has only ever used a dome keyboard. I would like it to be tactile. He likes my blue Alps keyboard, but I'm not looking to spend blue Alps money

Thanks for the help!

Your in the US right ?

Its not Super cheap but you could get a Japan layout pingmaster

https://www.ebay.com/i/382243958765?rt=nc

You would need to convert it to USB tho.

[twinrotor]

....


Your in the US right ?

Its not Super cheap but you could get a Japan layout pingmaster

https://www.ebay.com/i/382243958765?rt=nc

You would need to convert it to USB tho.

Yes, I'm in the US. No worries on USB conversion. Thanks for the link!