Let's make the worst layout ever!

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depletedvespene

02 Aug 2018, 14:05

BTW, I've just had a fantastic idea that builds upon Laser's underkeys concept. People that fancy 60% keyboards like 'em, in part, because omitting the F row allows for more compact units (and people who hate the 60%... things... mostly do for this very same omission). How about compromising? Let's put the F row on the rather underutilized backside of the keyboard so we can both have the cake and eat it! The space between the Esc and F1 keys would remain as is, allowing the USB plug to remain located there, as is the case in the present.

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Laser
emacs -nw

02 Aug 2018, 14:15

And three switches on the front side - mouse buttons :)

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depletedvespene

02 Aug 2018, 14:23

I was thinking of putting the mouse buttons (plus wheel) on one side of the keyboard, so as not to interfere with the wrist rests that seem to be all the rage these days.

You know what? Let's put them on BOTH sides, to accomodate lefties and righties.

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sealclubber

02 Aug 2018, 18:58

What about an ergodox with each half on top of a mouse?

Findecanor

02 Aug 2018, 19:38

Laser wrote: And three switches on the front side - mouse buttons :)
Of course the left button should be on the left side of the keyboard and the right button should be on the right side of the keyboard. It's only logical. :P
sealclubber wrote: What about an ergodox with each half on top of a mouse?
Something similar has been done a few times already and people thought that was a good idea.
The KeyMouse has gone through several iterations, but I don't know if you can yet buy one.
The Combimouse has the right side be a mouse, with fewer keys that are instead on the left keyboard half.
The Glide keyboard is non-split but light, moved around with friction against the wrist rest.

For the "Worst layout ever.".. why not have the mouse-keyboard rest of four balls: one in each corner, for balance.
None of these fancy-schmancy optical sensors: With four mouse-balls you get four times the precision .... uh, right? :D :roll:
Muirium wrote: No problem with Shift + Shift = CAPS.
When I first used my Phantom, bpiphany's firmware had Shift + Shift enter the bootloader. I noticed that I sometimes entered the bootloader accidentally, so I had to edit the source code to have that changed.

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Laser
emacs -nw

02 Aug 2018, 20:08

Findecanor wrote:
Laser wrote: And three switches on the front side - mouse buttons :)
Of course the left button should be on the left side of the keyboard and the right button should be on the right side of the keyboard. It's only logical. :P
The "flipper" keyboard! Excellent idea :lol: - and a middle button on the frontside - the "Tilt" switch!
For the "Worst layout ever.".. why not have the mouse-keyboard rest of four balls: one in each corner, for balance.
None of these fancy-schmancy optical sensors: With four mouse-balls you get four times the precision .... uh, right? :D :roll:
Nice, moving the keyboard moves the mouse - the Ouija keyboard! :)
Muirium wrote: No problem with Shift + Shift = CAPS.
When I first used my Phantom, bpiphany's firmware had Shift + Shift enter the bootloader. I noticed that I sometimes entered the bootloader accidentally, so I had to edit the source code to have that changed.
This annoying solution shouldn't be of course available to the user, the "double shift enters the bootloader" must be hardcoded so that the user doesn't have to worry that the combination ever changes its role.

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depletedvespene

08 Aug 2018, 17:30

I've been thinking deeply about this... so far, we're including keys on the topside, keys on the underside, keys on the sides, the F row on the back... topologically speaking, this is not any different from (you know where this is going) a sphere. So, with the help of a friend who made the render for me, let's see a quick and dirty rendering of an spherical keyboard.
sphere.png
Spherical keyboard (quick and dirty illustration).
sphere.png (475.98 KiB) Viewed 726 times
This, of course, is just a first idea of how to approach this. OBVIOUSLY, the equatorial row will need to have 2U keys, the tropical rows will have to use 1.5U and 1.25U keycaps, and the rest of the surface 1U keys, in diminishing numbers as they approach the poles.

A lot still needs to be worked out — starting with the dimensions of the sphere and the actual number of keys to place. Also, at least one of the polekeys (the one in the South Pole, duh!) will have to be sacrificed to put the USB plug a small cover for the battery compartment (because no one in his or her right mind will doubt for a minute that this needs to be wireless).

I'm still unsure of whether to go for a flat profile for the keycaps or to prefer a sculpted one — "North Cherry" and "South Cherry", for example. Although, it has to be said, this opens up the risk of someone playing fast and loose and making a "marsie" keyboard with a "North OEM" and a "South DSA" profile combination. EEEEEWWWW.

Ain't it wonderful, how some novel concepts evolve into unexpected shapes? :mrgreen:

davkol

15 Apr 2019, 15:25

Image

Maybe it serves the original purpose well, but otherwise…

samuelcable

15 Apr 2019, 15:27

davkol wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 15:25
Image

Maybe it serves the original purpose well, but otherwise…
Sigma dick lmao

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depletedvespene

15 Apr 2019, 16:04

davkol wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 15:25
Image

Maybe it serves the original purpose well, but otherwise…
I... uhhhh... WHAT?!?!?!?! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

But, hey, not many keyboards have an F0 key. :?


What IS this things original purpose, anyway?

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Laser
emacs -nw

15 Apr 2019, 19:10

"für folgende Sigma-registrierkassen" -> "for the following Sigma cash registers"

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depletedvespene

15 Apr 2019, 19:11

Cash registers? Wouldn't a keyboard designed for a cash register arrange the numbers in a numpad?

I'm not complaining about the F XT layout anymore, after seeing this. :(

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Laser
emacs -nw

15 Apr 2019, 23:34

It's possible this was an alphanumeric add-on to a cash register machine that had those numbers in a numpad already, looking at e.g.:

Image

or

Image

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Chyros

16 Apr 2019, 11:26

:p

davkol

16 Apr 2019, 12:28

The old typematrix was cheaply made and there were some questionable choices made regarding stabilizers, but the layout is fairly decent for touch typing.

In particular, the claim that "hands are still in the same position" and there's "no ergonomic benefit" is just plain wrong, and your whole rant is a projection about how you can't type well.

I have my own issues with the modifier layout on that keyboard, though, and I don't think the form factor and overall layout goes far enough.

davkol

16 Apr 2019, 15:48

Early 2000s were great for stupid layout ideas. One weird navigation/arrows cluster (from Umax):

Image

Isn't it great to miss an arrow key and shut the computer down? (from KME)

Image

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Chyros

16 Apr 2019, 17:01

davkol wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 12:28
The old typematrix was cheaply made and there were some questionable choices made regarding stabilizers, but the layout is fairly decent for touch typing.

In particular, the claim that "hands are still in the same position" and there's "no ergonomic benefit" is just plain wrong, and your whole rant is a projection about how you can't type well.

I have my own issues with the modifier layout on that keyboard, though, and I don't think the form factor and overall layout goes far enough.
I really don't think you deserve to be on the high horse you're talking down to me from :p .

"Typing well" is probably not a good choice of words in your case; I'm pretty sure 99% of computer users will not find that a nice layout to use :p . You may like it, sure, but don't make it sound like I'M the weirdo here :p .

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depletedvespene

16 Apr 2019, 17:08

Chyros wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 17:01
……… don't make it sound like I'M the weirdo here :p .
Aren't we ALL weirdos here already? :mrgreen:

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Chyros

16 Apr 2019, 17:35

depletedvespene wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 17:08
Chyros wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 17:01
……… don't make it sound like I'M the weirdo here :p .
Aren't we ALL weirdos here already? :mrgreen:
Haha yeah, that's definitely true I guess xD .

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

16 Apr 2019, 17:45

Chyros wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 17:01
davkol wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 12:28
The old typematrix was cheaply made and there were some questionable choices made regarding stabilizers, but the layout is fairly decent for touch typing.

In particular, the claim that "hands are still in the same position" and there's "no ergonomic benefit" is just plain wrong, and your whole rant is a projection about how you can't type well.

I have my own issues with the modifier layout on that keyboard, though, and I don't think the form factor and overall layout goes far enough.
I really don't think you deserve to be on the high horse you're talking down to me from :p .

"Typing well" is probably not a good choice of words in your case; I'm pretty sure 99% of computer users will not find that a nice layout to use :p . You may like it, sure, but don't make it sound like I'M the weirdo here :p .
That's how such reviews are made: claiming objectivity when in fact simply asserting bold assumptions.
Even ripster's coin-o-meter had more objectivity in it :lol:

(Sorry, I couldn't resist :mrgreen: . Going back to work… and observer mode :D )

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Laser
emacs -nw

16 Apr 2019, 17:48

But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there :P

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)

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ZedTheMan

16 Apr 2019, 18:02

Laser wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 17:48
But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there :P

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
Two words: Vertical stagger.

More words: I always found ortholinear funky and awkward, I'm sure some prefer it ergonomically but really it's kinda the lame middle ground between normal horizontal stagger and the superior for ergonomics vertical stagger.

Findecanor

16 Apr 2019, 18:10

ZedTheMan wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 18:02
Two words: Vertical stagger.
I agree. If you are supposed to have your wrists orthogonal to the keyboard, then a vertical stagger or a symmetric horizontal stagger would have been better than this.

Also, the very small amount of hand separation and lack of angle between key halves makes it worse for most users' wrists than how most people type on a "regular" keyboard.

... Or, users would adapt to not lining up their fingers into columns at all.

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Chyros

16 Apr 2019, 18:14

Laser wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 17:48
But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there :P

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :p

Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.

Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.

samuelcable

16 Apr 2019, 18:20

Chyros wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 18:14
Laser wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 17:48
But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there :P

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :p

Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.

Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.
For once, I agree with your last statement. I do not see how it's any more ergonomic than staggered. It's different for sure but that doesn't magically make it more ergonomic. If all of our fingers were equally sized like some freakish abomination then I'd get the Ortho hype, but even after getting used to it I feel no ergonomic difference in it between staggered YMMV

Can't side with you on your other points though. Its ok to type in your own style if you type at a comfortable speed, but I don't support not learning touch typing, as it took me like a week to learn and I'm a dumbass slow learner (see my soldering jobs)

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depletedvespene

16 Apr 2019, 18:20

ZedTheMan wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 18:02
Two words: Vertical stagger.

More words: I always found ortholinear funky and awkward, I'm sure some prefer it ergonomically but really it's kinda the lame middle ground between normal horizontal stagger and the superior for ergonomics vertical stagger.
Well, it's not that bad when you think about it. I tried to combine horizontal stagger and vertical stagger, and the results weren't good:
VandH2.png
VandH2.png (24.31 KiB) Viewed 305 times
Perhaps if I should place the keys in band instead of in bar?
Last edited by depletedvespene on 16 Apr 2019, 18:29, edited 3 times in total.

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Laser
emacs -nw

16 Apr 2019, 18:27

Chyros wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 18:14
Laser wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 17:48
But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there :P

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :p

Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.

Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.
In the end, what does matter is that, being a different layout, if you do a review of it without first trying to get familiar with the layout for a while, I can't take you seriously. It's like me typing on colemak, and complaining that I can't type.

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Chyros

16 Apr 2019, 19:06

Laser wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 18:27
Chyros wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 18:14
Laser wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 17:48
But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there :P

"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :p

Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.

Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.
In the end, what does matter is that, being a different layout, if you do a review of it without first trying to get familiar with the layout for a while, I can't take you seriously. It's like me typing on colemak, and complaining that I can't type.
I think you're taking the review a bit too seriously mate ;) .

davkol

16 Apr 2019, 19:11

The "matrix" layout in TypeMatrix solves one specific problem: being fundamentally symmetrical, it makes both human hands make the same (mirrored) motions, as opposed to different motions on the standard layout with inconsistently offset rows.

Although I personally don't value it, the "matrix" design also allows embedding an almost standard tenkey into the right half without looking too intimidating.

The other feature of that particular model is that it increases the distance between halves by 6 cm, which by definition improves wrist angle. The gap isn't wasted either, as stronger and longer index fingers can be used to press the large Backspace/Enter/Tab keys instead of short little fingers.

It doesn't tackle other issues like human hands' digit ratios, or moving punctuation into better places, though.

At last but not least,
Xenophobia is the fear and distrust of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange.

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depletedvespene

16 Apr 2019, 19:48

davkol wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 19:11
At last but not least,
Xenophobia is the fear and distrust of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange.
Shouldn't we talking about xediophobia instead? I mean, this is specifically about layouts...

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