Let's make the worst layout ever!

andrewjoy

01 Aug 2018, 17:59

What about a none stepped layout, to bring on that RSI just that little bit faster.
plank.png
plank.png (10.2 KiB) Viewed 656 times

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depletedvespene

01 Aug 2018, 18:01

sealclubber wrote: I enjoy the F5 idea; indeed it is more important to refresh than it is to lock your workstation, as when you are at your keyboard you should always be buying more keyboards. Locking the workstation is for quitters.
Don't fully abandon the idea of a Ctrl-Alt-Del (or, better, dedicated Win-L) key just yet! A quickly accessible boss key is quite important for a worker's productivity.

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depletedvespene

01 Aug 2018, 18:02

Laser wrote: Keep the ideas coming! I'm filling out patent proposals as we speak :mrgreen:

I too have a small proposal: Remove the 'f' from the 'Shift' legend, it would make the text shorter and clearer!
I can't wait to see keycap designers do an "icons only" version of this. :mrgreen:

andrewjoy

01 Aug 2018, 18:05

depletedvespene wrote:
Don't fully abandon the idea of a Ctrl-Alt-Del (or, better, dedicated Win-L) key just yet! A quickly accessible boss key is quite important for a worker's productivity.

my tipro has a ctl alt delete key programmed, and a win + tab key. Adding a new virtual desktop (welcome to the 90s Microsoft ) is handy for killing crashed full screen apps.

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Laser
emacs -nw

01 Aug 2018, 18:46

depletedvespene wrote:
Laser wrote: Keep the ideas coming! I'm filling out patent proposals as we speak :mrgreen:

I too have a small proposal: Remove the 'f' from the 'Shift' legend, it would make the text shorter and clearer!
I can't wait to see keycap designers do an "icons only" version of this. :mrgreen:
There's already a unicode char for it: (U+1F4A9)

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depletedvespene

01 Aug 2018, 18:53

Laser wrote:
depletedvespene wrote: There's already a unicode char for it: (U+1F4A9)
What do you think I was implying in the first place? :mrgreen:

What I want to see what the design of the CAPS LOCK (or, better, SHIFT LOCK) key shall be. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Laser
emacs -nw

01 Aug 2018, 19:09

The switch should also be special: it should make a clicky sound about half-a-travel, but only actuate on bottoming out: a consistent, if not entirely expected, behavior: people should not unlearn bottoming out, since they may have to use rubberdome keyboards from time to time.

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sealclubber

01 Aug 2018, 20:01

How about a switch that clicks twice? Once to provide auditory feedback, another one to make sure you heard it, then actuate at the bottom. It's like 100% more click per click.

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mark201200

01 Aug 2018, 20:11

depletedvespene wrote: Well... needs more work. Remember: "this thing should superficially look like a normal layout, but actually be annoying to the point of near-uselessness."

Also, that Enter key is excessively large. Screams for Latin Enter instead.
I made another one! And this time it looks normal... at first glance.

Image
  • For all you ISO lovers, I've added an ISO Space!
  • Insert and delete have been swapped with Backspace and enter
  • Capslock has been removed: you should learn to use shift, which is in a very convenient position.
  • Swapped Esc for Pause. Sometimes you just need a break.
  • I've added the "Update and restart" button for all the Windows 10 fans!
  • And much more!

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mark201200

01 Aug 2018, 20:21

Laser wrote: The switch should also be special: it should make a clicky sound about half-a-travel, but only actuate on bottoming out: a consistent, if not entirely expected, behavior: people should not unlearn bottoming out, since they may have to use rubberdome keyboards from time to time.
sealclubber wrote: How about a switch that clicks twice? Once to provide auditory feedback, another one to make sure you heard it, then actuate at the bottom. It's like 100% more click per click.
I think I found the solution to this problem. Thanks orihalcon.

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depletedvespene

01 Aug 2018, 20:21

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaalmost, but not quite.
  • Split the Tab key, so we can have Tab (on the left side) and BackTab (on the right side).
  • Swap → and ↑.
  • Caps Lock is still there... using the key that definitely should be Enter.
  • Swap PgUp and PgDn.

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mark201200

01 Aug 2018, 20:35

depletedvespene wrote: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaalmost, but not quite.
  • Split the Tab key, so we can have Tab (on the left side) and BackTab (on the right side).
  • Swap → and ↑.
  • Caps Lock is still there... using the key that definitely should be Enter.
  • Swap PgUp and PgDn.
lol, i forgot about capslock. Thought that I removed it.
Here's the updated layout

Image

Edit: that arrow cluster kinda reminds me of a swastika...

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Laser
emacs -nw

01 Aug 2018, 20:52

Yesss!!! (Caps Lock) (I mean, Shift)

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hansichen

02 Aug 2018, 00:12

You guys really have to learn how to arrange your alphas....

Image

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depletedvespene

02 Aug 2018, 00:26

hansichen wrote: You guys really have to learn how to arrange your alphas....
As mentioned in the first post, that's a matter best left to the logical/national layout to be placed on top of the physical one (and I got some ideas for that as well...).

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Laser
emacs -nw

02 Aug 2018, 01:10

sealclubber wrote: How about a switch that clicks twice? Once to provide auditory feedback, another one to make sure you heard it, then actuate at the bottom. It's like 100% more click per click.
Good idea! The switch travel would also be extended to at least ~6mm, to account for the 2nd click: 2mm - first click, 4mm - the 2nd click, 6mm - bottom actuation. A Cherry MX "Deep Purple" clone maybe?

Red_October

02 Aug 2018, 03:37

Would an orthogonal layout deviate too far from the stated goal of resembling a normal, usable keyboard? Because I think it should definitely be orthogonal, but most people, I think, when confronted with an orthogonal keyboard would declare it unusable.

Other ideas: separate out "Line Feed" and "Carriage Return" from the "Enter" key, -in fact, have another "Enter" key. Software authors should pick their favorite for the sort of "Confirm Entry" use it gets now. No need to have consistency across software packages! The VT220, its descendants and clones have one of my favorite keys (well, two of them, actually) "Do". This should also make an appearance to further cloud the issue for clarity and precision. My other favorite key from this otherwise-unremarkable keyboard is Compose Character, but since it's a.) really good and b.) mostly a software-side operation maybe it doesn't have a place here.
-Keys on the numpad go the other way. No reason anymore for the reverse layout.
-Definitely needs a soft power key in there somewhere. While the Windows key is still very much a "Lose the Game" key, this behavior is not universal as it once was nor does the system regularly go down, lock up hard, or halt and catch fire when it is pressed during gameplay. This returns some measure of this functionality.
-How will anyone get any work done without a System Request key!? All the above layouts omit it!

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chuckdee

02 Aug 2018, 04:12

What about this layout?
davkol wrote: This atrocity is fun too, thanks Colemak forum for reminding me:

Image

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depletedvespene

02 Aug 2018, 04:27

Red_October wrote: The VT220, its descendants and clones have one of my favorite keys (well, two of them, actually) "Do". This should also make an appearance to further cloud the issue for clarity and precision.
Only if it's accompanied by the "Not" modifier.

(emphasis added on the following quote)
Red_October wrote: Keys on the numpad go the other way. No reason anymore for the reverse layout.
No. We need the numpad keys AND we need the compactness of a TKL, to make space for a mouse or a trackball or whatever. How to solve this conumdrum? Let's take inspiration from a famous mathematician and add the Gaussian row:
tagotis-gaussian.png
Tagotis layout v1.1; detail — note the Gaussian row.
tagotis-gaussian.png (17.31 KiB) Viewed 472 times
Is this brilliant or what?
Red_October wrote: How will anyone get any work done without a System Request key!? All the above layouts omit it!
Solved (and forward-solved, too), thanks to the Latin Enter (the best kind of Enter). See above.

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Laser
emacs -nw

02 Aug 2018, 06:02

It's strange, but you sound a little bit competitive, cutting people opinions like that. After all, they are offered in good, humourous heart :p

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depletedvespene

02 Aug 2018, 12:19

Laser wrote: It's strange, but you sound a little bit competitive, cutting people opinions like that. After all, they are offered in good, humourous heart :p
Ouch. :shock: My intention was for all of us to build on each other's wacky ideas, to make them even wackier. :cry: :cry: :cry:

This being a typical Internet forum misunderstanding, it gives us an opportunity to consider something that keyboards lack: an Apologize key (it remains to be determined if it should be pressed with or without the Not modifier). 8-)

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Laser
emacs -nw

02 Aug 2018, 12:26

Mabye it was just my perception :) in any case, you are serious about this - let's get wackier 8-)

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depletedvespene

02 Aug 2018, 12:30

Laser wrote: Mabye it was just my perception :) in any case, you are serious about this - let's get wackier 8-)
I now have to wonder if Apologize should be a dedicated key or whether should be accessed through Ctrl (like Break and SysReq, or like how Shift-ScrollLock produces NumLock in the SSK). Could it be Ctrl-Do? It IS an action, after all... :?:

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Laser
emacs -nw

02 Aug 2018, 12:34

This could introduce another idea - having some keycaps *under* the keyboard! Moving the alphanumerics there would make plenty of space for more important keys like those proposed lately in this thread :)

Also, instead of keyboard feet, four upside-down Ctrls with rubberized keycaps should do it. Want to press Control? Press down a corner of the keyboard! This also helps with touch-typing, the "floating hands" method (or you risk pushing Controls when you don't want it).

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depletedvespene

02 Aug 2018, 12:41

Interesting... but I suppose the underkeys on the lowest rows should necessarily be low profile, so as not to interfere with the user's preferred angle. Damn, ergonometric considerations are never easy to satisfy!

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depletedvespene

02 Aug 2018, 12:58

Laser wrote: Also, instead of keyboard feet, four upside-down Ctrls with rubberized keycaps should do it. Want to press Control? Press down a corner of the keyboard! This also helps with touch-typing, the "floating hands" method (or you risk pushing Controls when you don't want it).
This can be improved on, come to think of it: instead of four Ctrl feet, how about having two Ctrl and two Shift feet? Press a corner, get either Ctrl or Shift; press a border in the middle, get Ctrl-Shift at the same time (this, of course, also allows Ctrl-Ctrl and Shift-Shift to be pressed, the functionality of which remains to be determined). :D

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Laser
emacs -nw

02 Aug 2018, 13:04

Funny you should say that, I seriously *do* use the LShift-RShift combination - to switch mouse-and-keyboard input to and from a qemu virtual machine with vga passthrough (it's called 'evdev-passthrough' and the combination is hardcoded)

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Muirium
µ

02 Aug 2018, 13:47

Same. But I use it as a macro to toggle CAPS LOCK. That's so I can have Control back, next to A where destiny intended it, and still have a handy mnemonic for the function when it is occasionally required. Which is seldom enough to make it almost hard to remember! No problem with Shift + Shift = CAPS.

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Laser
emacs -nw

02 Aug 2018, 13:49

Yes, it's not every day that one works "double shifts" :P

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depletedvespene

02 Aug 2018, 13:59

It never ceases to amaze me how good design solves known problems and pre-solves unforeseen ones. 8-)

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