IBM M58, the 60% Model M, Very SSK or however IBM called it

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digital_matthew

12 Nov 2018, 18:37

It seems odd that a keyboard based on the membrane buckling springs design would be a prototype for the PCjr keyboard, seeing as the Model M was introduced two years after the PCjr. The first Model M (and all of the others that were actually built by IBM) had a large controller board in the back, so it seems unlikely that a miniature version would have been created two or more years before the actual Model M prototype. It's also suspicious that we haven't seen the back or underside of this keyboard. Chopping a standard Model M case and rounding out the sides wouldn't be that hard if the back of the case wasn't an issue. It may indeed be a prototype or very specialized space-saver built by IBM (or Lexmark), but I don't think it would have been for the PCjr. My instincts, plus the fact that this looks like a bolt mod, and the layout being very much "in style", tell me that this is a high-quality chop.

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Myoth

12 Nov 2018, 18:43

Pumaeggs wrote: 2) the form factor. I almost refuse to believe that IBM would produce a keyboard for a general market that didnt even have an escape key. Function layers would have been a pretty interesting idea at the time, especially because function keys and numpads were the norm at the time. Moving from a full sized to a 60% would have been a big ass jump.
I pretty much agree with all of your other points, but I disagree with this one, and to discard it, here is a single picture :
Image

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zrrion

12 Nov 2018, 19:53

If it were a chop job I'd expect someone would have made a thread about it. There's an artisan on it so theoretically its owner is part of the community so its weird that they haven't posted much about it.

I wonder how much it would cost to get the case/membrane/barrel plate made for something like this? The rest could be sourced from unicomp or an old M for pretty cheap, and a ribbon connector with a teensey works for a controller. Heck, the barrel plate could be sourced from an existing m too if you had to.

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wcass

12 Nov 2018, 23:03

zrrion wrote: I wonder how much it would cost to get the case/membrane/barrel plate made for something like this? The rest could be sourced from unicomp or an old M for pretty cheap, and a ribbon connector with a teensey works for a controller. Heck, the barrel plate could be sourced from an existing m too if you had to.
The case and membranes are the expensive parts. I have designed custom M and F, but I only do F's now because the cost of high quality PCB are significantly less than even not-great-quality membranes in low volumes.

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zrrion

13 Nov 2018, 01:57

The obvious solution would be to put a small magnet on the end of the flipper and put a hall effect sensor or a magnetic reed in the board. :P

A more workable solution might be to make a discrete membrane switch. That would cut down on the difficulties with making a new membrane for every variation, and would still use model M parts which are way easier to source than model F parts.
Of course that's a moot point if someone decides to start producing barrels/flippers beyond the end of Ellipse's second run.

andrea-i

13 Nov 2018, 04:39

I could totally see a DIYer model M kit with discrete switches, oh man what a dream : D
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Pumaeggs

14 Nov 2018, 15:29

Myoth wrote:
I pretty much agree with all of your other points, but I disagree with this one, and to discard it, here is a single picture :
Image
oh duh how could i have been so stupid i completely forgot about the kishsaver

SneakyRobb

15 Nov 2018, 00:06

Doesn't clickclack own this keyboard? The mischief making, aloof playful movie prop maker who is also extremely expert in plastics? This keyboard has been posted and discussed many times over the almost 10 years since it was "found."

I am not saying this keyboard isn't real. Or that independently IBM never made a similar keyboard. They very well may have, or had some external company do it. Remember when Kishsavers were a shock? But a member of the community could have solved this mystery with a few photographs and a typed paragraph at any time over the last 10 years. Why not? If he wanted to "Find" all the others before to make a buck, surely 10 years is enough time right? The only evidence this keyboard exists comes from Clickclack. He found it in some gallery and then wow it works? That is cool for him I suppose. I am not mad. It has an integrated capslock light unlike 100% of IBM keyboards ever seen? Never to tell anyone about it again? He even had/s it in his geekhack signature coyly reminding you of it's existence... this keyboard is a work of art. It is either the rarest keyboard ever, some prototype, or a source of amusement for clickclack.

Excelso

15 Nov 2018, 00:45

SneakyRobb wrote: Doesn't clickclack own this keyboard? The mischief making, aloof playful movie prop maker who is also extremely expert in plastics? This keyboard has been posted and discussed many times over the almost 10 years since it was "found."

I am not saying this keyboard isn't real. Or that independently IBM never made a similar keyboard. They very well may have, or had some external company do it. Remember when Kishsavers were a shock? But a member of the community could have solved this mystery with a few photographs and a typed paragraph at any time over the last 10 years. Why not? If he wanted to "Find" all the others before to make a buck, surely 10 years is enough time right? The only evidence this keyboard exists comes from Clickclack. He found it in some gallery and then wow it works? That is cool for him I suppose. I am not mad. It has an integrated capslock light unlike 100% of IBM keyboards ever seen? Never to tell anyone about it again? He even had/s it in his geekhack signature coyly reminding you of it's existence... this keyboard is a work of art. It is either the rarest keyboard ever, some prototype, or a source of amusement for clickclack.
I'm not sure if it's an original IBM keyboard or not but it fits very well to a precise moment in keyboard development. As I stated before, the PCjr style leds and mods and the fact that PS/2 buckling springs appear as a cheap alternative just when PCjr keyboards fiasco, the new PCJr keyboards and the keyboards in the JX ("sucessor" of PCjr)... Of course the fact that no information was given since then is not good news but we can dream.

I take a good time looking for info about PCjr and the JX because it was a very interesting machine from my point of view and this keyboard remains a mistery as the keyboard the people at Sierra got when they recieved the PCjr prototype, the keyboard of the PCjr Plus Dvorak columnist talked back then...

You never know what you can find and if you are going to find information about it... For example, I found this not so long ago...
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SneakyRobb

15 Nov 2018, 01:06

Excelso wrote:
I'm not sure if it's an original IBM keyboard or not but it fits very well to a precise moment in keyboard development. As I stated before, the PCjr style leds and mods and the fact that PS/2 buckling springs appear as a cheap alternative just when PCjr keyboards fiasco, the new PCJr keyboards and the keyboards in the JX ("sucessor" of PCjr)... Of course the fact that no information was given since then is not good news but we can dream.

I take a good time looking for info about PCjr and the JX because it was a very interesting machine from my point of view and this keyboard remains a mistery as the keyboard the people at Sierra got when they recieved the PCjr prototype, the keyboard of the PCjr Plus Dvorak columnist talked back then...

You never know what you can find and if you are going to find information about it... For example, I found this not so long ago...
Mouse-output.jpg
I agree with you. I think we will continue to occasionally find new interesting and novel keyboard related items and histories.

All I'm saying is that an active member of the community owns this board. They have owned it for 9 years.

There is no mystery, the end.

All we have are some low res pictures supplied by that person. Who has the resume of expert keycap maker, prop maker, and aloof playfulness. This isn't a case of us searching for kishsavers and contacting recyclers. We have no evidence aside from that information supplied from one of us. That person has the single example of this board. Where is the tear down? Where is the documentation? At any time he could have shared information about it. Isn't it just a little bit odd that one of us literally owns this keyboard and just never talks about it. Don't you think? Why no video being like "this is what this is?" The geekhack signature is literally a small image of the board. Playful it seems like to me.

I'd love to be surprised and I have done my own share of trying to find out about it. I've contacted the IBM archives asking. Haven't heard back. Have looked up again and again. That keyboard very well may be some pcjr prototype. It could some electric typewriter detachable piece. Some system 32/34 etc control console etc etc etc.... No one knows.... one of literally knows and can solve this right now. That is my problem with this.

Excelso

15 Nov 2018, 01:47

SneakyRobb wrote:
Excelso wrote:
I'm not sure if it's an original IBM keyboard or not but it fits very well to a precise moment in keyboard development. As I stated before, the PCjr style leds and mods and the fact that PS/2 buckling springs appear as a cheap alternative just when PCjr keyboards fiasco, the new PCJr keyboards and the keyboards in the JX ("sucessor" of PCjr)... Of course the fact that no information was given since then is not good news but we can dream.

I take a good time looking for info about PCjr and the JX because it was a very interesting machine from my point of view and this keyboard remains a mistery as the keyboard the people at Sierra got when they recieved the PCjr prototype, the keyboard of the PCjr Plus Dvorak columnist talked back then...

You never know what you can find and if you are going to find information about it... For example, I found this not so long ago...
Mouse-output.jpg
I agree with you. I think we will continue to occasionally find new interesting and novel keyboard related items and histories.

All I'm saying is that an active member of the community owns this board. They have owned it for 9 years.

There is no mystery, the end.

All we have are some low res pictures supplied by that person. Who has the resume of expert keycap maker, prop maker, and aloof playfulness. This isn't a case of us searching for kishsavers and contacting recyclers. We have no evidence aside from that information supplied from one of us. That person has the single example of this board. Where is the tear down? Where is the documentation? At any time he could have shared information about it. Isn't it just a little bit odd that one of us literally owns this keyboard and just never talks about it. Don't you think? Why no video being like "this is what this is?" The geekhack signature is literally a small image of the board. Playful it seems like to me.

I'd love to be surprised and I have done my own share of trying to find out about it. I've contacted the IBM archives asking. Haven't heard back. Have looked up again and again. That keyboard very well may be some pcjr prototype. It could some electric typewriter detachable piece. Some system 32/34 etc control console etc etc etc.... No one knows.... one of literally knows and can solve this right now. That is my problem with this.
I got your point. Even if clickclack is playing with my mind it has been a good time searching the holy grail. Even if this keyboard doesn't exist at all I have discovered a lot of things just by that pair of pictures.

SneakyRobb

15 Nov 2018, 03:21

Excelso wrote:
I got your point. Even if clickclack is playing with my mind it has been a good time searching the holy grail. Even if this keyboard doesn't exist at all I have discovered a lot of things just by that pair of pictures.
Hey right on. Me too.
Every year or so I remember this keyboard and spend 40-60 hours over 1 week and just typing all the combinations of keyboard, indicator mode, indicator light, alphameric, cap lock, capslock, shiftlock, membrane, console, terminal, etc etc etc into various engines and databases. Looking even at other companies who could have made this. I have even gone to the library a few times I must admit...

Maybe this time i'll find it was an IBM japan export brother buckling spring prototype I say. Maybe I am close this time, this type of board has a light!... maybe some variant..

I sort of concluded a long time ago that clickclack probably manufactured this for fun. It is endlessly intriguing though because I still believe it is entirely plausible that a similar keyboard exists or has been made by ibm. Even if this one is some kind of Clickclack joke, I have spent a lot of time as well learning and researching into ibm keyboards. That in itself has been enjoyable and informative. I agree with you whole heartedly in that regard.

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

24 Nov 2018, 03:08

andrea-i wrote: I could totally see a DIYer model M kit with discrete switches, oh man what a dream : D
Neat, what keyboard is this?

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Mr.Nobody

24 Nov 2018, 05:06

TIM图片20181124120532.png
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Don't want to be an ass, but you meant "deduce" here, right?

andrea-i

24 Nov 2018, 17:11

XMIT wrote:
andrea-i wrote: I could totally see a DIYer model M kit with discrete switches, oh man what a dream : D
Neat, what keyboard is this?
Those are the brother buckling spring switches used by IBM in japan on the 5576 keyboards, and they are a freaggin cool.

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Myoth

24 Nov 2018, 17:15

Mr.Nobody wrote:
TIM图片20181124120532.png
Don't want to be an ass, but you meant "deduce" here, right?
I'm pretty sure both exist and mean the same thing :?

Excelso

24 Nov 2018, 17:46

Myoth wrote:
Mr.Nobody wrote:
TIM图片20181124120532.png
Don't want to be an ass, but you meant "deduce" here, right?
I'm pretty sure both exist and mean the same thing :?
It's a "false friend". It usually means "substract".

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Myoth

24 Nov 2018, 18:30

oh, I see, god damn faux-amis >:(

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madrobby

25 Nov 2018, 14:10

Surprised that no one has posted the IBM PCjr keyboard yet. Pretty much a 65% keyboard. :lol:
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green-squid

25 Nov 2018, 14:13

It's decent? shiiieet I may have to get one from cindy!

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Myoth

25 Nov 2018, 14:19

green-squid wrote:It's decent? shiiieet I may have to get one from cindy!
it's as decent as the 'Nam, as both gave PTSD to the oldest members of DT :lol:

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green-squid

25 Nov 2018, 14:27

oh crap, i thought this was the 'decent domes' thread!

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depletedvespene

03 Dec 2018, 02:22

green-squid wrote: It's decent? shiiieet I may have to get one from cindy!
The pictured one is the "second iteration". It's generally acknowledged as being less indecent as the first keyboard that came with the PCjr, but quite indecent on its own, nevertheless. Don't bother getting one — you'll regret it.

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