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Help me out on my quest

Posted: 10 Feb 2019, 23:00
by Umut
Hello! I'm new to this forums site and to the keyboard genre in general. Let me fill you in about myself and how I ended up here.
Spoiler:
My first mechanical keyboard was the BlackWidow Ultimate 2013 which had the Razer's fake blue switches, their green switches back in January 2015. A year later, nearing the end of January of 2016, I decided to "upgrade" to the Razer BlackWidow Tournament Stealth Edition, the TKL version of the previous one with Razer's fake brown switches, their orange switches. After using the crappy Stealth for less than a year, I started wanting and craving for more. I was sick and tired of Razer. I desired a more worthy, versatile keyboard. A keyboard which could satisfy me for many years. And on the night of the 16th of October, 2016, I purchased my final keyboard. The Corsair K65 RGB mechanical keyboard. My first ever keyboard to have Cherry MX switches, Cherry MX Red for my case. I decided to go for Reds for two reasons. I was a novice to keyboards back then, I just looked up what other people used, not even caring for the switches functionality or characteristics. For gaming people went with the Reds, so I decided to go for the Reds as well. I've also been using non-clicky switches for the past one and a half years. The only memory I've had remaining of the clicky Razer keyboard thanks to my goldfish memory were people complaining over the mic about how loud my keyboard was. This small prejudice might have also been caused due to the utter crap Razer Green switches. This keyboard was perfect for me. It was sturdy, compact, sleek, and had full customization of different colour options with its beautiful RGB, something I never had a chance with the Razer keyboards previously. I fell in love with this keyboard. I've been using it since then and I still haven't had any problems with it. I laughed with this keyboard, cried with this keyboard. I love it so much that I've never cleaned it up. I was too scared of disturbing it, getting "rid" of the many years I spent with it.

Viewer discretion advised.
Spoiler:
Those are not light reflections on the right (for example the Enter key) by the way, just the build up of what I am guessing are dead skin cells from the past 3 years cultivating into "that".

https://ibb.co/93tMqs8
https://ibb.co/M7Cqjz5


A few weeks back, I discovered a video from someone called Chyrosran22. I remembered this name from somewhere. Ah yes, back in May I had watched two of his videos where he reviewed these giant switches and another video of him talking about a helium based switch with him commentating over with helium. I'm guessing that his beautiful voice is what remained in my mind over the many months that had passed by then. I watched one or two videos of his throughout that summer when it came up on my recommended section from time to time. But his videos reappeared on my recommended section this month, on the first few days of February. I fell in love with his content, watching one video after another. I started learning more about mechanical keyboards and their respective parts thank to him. I learned the different plastic types of the keycaps and what those weird terms I kept hearing on the Internet meant. I now knew that there were more than just the MX type of switches. After watching his video on the one with his Blue Alps keyboard, I suddenly felt gravitated towards the switch. It just seemed so out of the unique for me, someone who only used MX switches and rubber domes for his whole life. The sound was also beautiful. It didn't sound like that ear piercing Razer green switches. It was bassy and pleasent. My mind started telling me to get a keyboard with that kind of a switch even if my experiences with clicky switches weren't of the best ones. I just knew it for some reason. So after researching and quickly coming to the conclusion that Blue Alps switches were bit harder to find than I thought, I started looking for alternative clones of Alps that Chyrosran22 recommended in his videos, one of them being Matias switches. I started looking more into them, and as Chyrosran22 said, they were the modern, updated versions of the now discontinued Alps switches. I felt like I needed some more information first hand, so that is how I ended up here.
That being out of the way, let's get down to business. I'm looking for a new clicky keyboard. I have discovered about Matias Click switches, a Blue Alps clone from what I am assuming. From what I found out by looking it up online until now, they are not as tactile as the original Alps, but still pretty tactile when compared to other switches, and way more tactile than Cherry's.
I've been looking at mechanicalkeyboards.com for the past few days now, and I've come to the decision of purchasing a Keyboard Paradise V80 with Matias Click switches, which comes with a 80% set of double shot ABS "Dolch" keycaps.

So, dear what I'm guessing keyboard enthusiasts(?), what are your thoughts on my conclusion of getting a Matias Click keyboard? I've read many bad reviews about the KBP V80. Should I get that specific keyboard? Or should I opt for a Matias' keyboard like the Tactile Pro instead of going for KBP? I am open to any criticism or feedback, as I am still nothing but a newbie when it comes to keyboards. Thank you for your time.

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 11 Feb 2019, 01:32
by Hypersphere
There have been many reports about Matias switches being unreliable. From my perspective, it appears that these problems have arisen relatively recently. It remains to be seen if Matias will be successful in dealing with the problem with new a new generation of switches.

In my own case, I have KBP V60 keyboards with Matias Click and Matias Quiet switches that I purchased 3-4 years ago, and they are working just fine. Apparently, the switches from that time were okay.

BTW, Matias Click switches are a clone of simplified white Alps switches.

In the Cherry mx world, what they do best is exemplified by their purest form -- the purely linear switch (Cherry red or black). If you like Cherry reds, then you might just wish to stick with them.

If you are enticed by the vintage Alps world, then be patient and keep looking for Alps keyboards that appear to be in excellent shape. Currently, most blue Alps boards that appear on eBay are posted at ridiculously high levels. If you were thinking of Matias, then look for boards with SKCM white Alps switches, which will be more reasonably priced. If you like linear switches but would like them in Alps, there are SKCL green or yellow linear Alps boards.

Good luck finding what you are after.

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 11 Feb 2019, 01:39
by snacksthecat
If I were in your shoes, I would probably look for a v80 second-hand and swap out the switches for some genuine Alps. Probably SKCM orange (my preference) or white like @Hypersphere suggested.

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 11 Feb 2019, 02:14
by swampangel
For a possibly more reliable alternative to the Matias switches, consider the KBP V80 with simplified white alps switches by Forward Electronics (Fuhua/Fukka). https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/usa ... yboard.asp

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 11 Feb 2019, 03:05
by Darkshado
Judging by your current TKL Razer and your interest in the V80, I can't recall any vintage "TKL" form-factor Alps boards: customs and the V80 are your only options.

If you're still ok with full size you have much more choice. Thinking out loud: what about click-modding a Dell Bigfoot?

I've had one Quiet Click switch chatter on my V80 but all that was needed to fix it was to open the switch and clean the contacts with high grade (> 95%) isopropyl alcohol. One theory is that the factory sometimes applies too much lubricant inside the switch and that it interferes with the contacts. In any case, the Matias Click switches are not lubricated so that wouldn't apply.

Given your location, warranty service on anything from the US would get expensive fast, so if you take your chances on the Matias switches, I recommend having a soldering iron or a friend with one just in case, to deal with any switch beyond repair.

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 11 Feb 2019, 16:49
by cineraphael
Do not come to Tucson because I cannot find any Alps Keyboard there, not even Dell AT101.

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 11 Feb 2019, 17:09
by abrahamstechnology
cineraphael wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 16:49
Do not come to Tucson because I cannot find any Alps Keyboard there, not even Dell AT101.
Same here.

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 11 Feb 2019, 20:11
by Umut
Hypersphere wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 01:32
There have been many reports about Matias switches being unreliable. From my perspective, it appears that these problems have arisen relatively recently. It remains to be seen if Matias will be successful in dealing with the problem with new a new generation of switches.

In my own case, I have KBP V60 keyboards with Matias Click and Matias Quiet switches that I purchased 3-4 years ago, and they are working just fine. Apparently, the switches from that time were okay.

BTW, Matias Click switches are a clone of simplified white Alps switches.

In the Cherry mx world, what they do best is exemplified by their purest form -- the purely linear switch (Cherry red or black). If you like Cherry reds, then you might just wish to stick with them.

If you are enticed by the vintage Alps world, then be patient and keep looking for Alps keyboards that appear to be in excellent shape. Currently, most blue Alps boards that appear on eBay are posted at ridiculously high levels. If you were thinking of Matias, then look for boards with SKCM white Alps switches, which will be more reasonably priced. If you like linear switches but would like them in Alps, there are SKCL green or yellow linear Alps boards.

Good luck finding what you are after.
I think I will switch to the Alps, as I really want to delve into newer and interesting parts of the keyboard genre. Cherry MX's are getting pretty boring for me :P
Didn't know that the Matias Click was a copy of the White Alps switches, always thought that it was a copy of the blues. What's the difference between white and blue Alps?
Also now that you mentioned it, on mechanicalkeyboards.com on the KBP V80, there is a switch called "ALPS KSB-C". I'm not too good with these, so is this a white switch? And because it is Alps, is this like a few decades old? If it is a few decades old, I think I'd rather go with Matias' just due to the durability.
snacksthecat wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 01:39
If I were in your shoes, I would probably look for a v80 second-hand and swap out the switches for some genuine Alps. Probably SKCM orange (my preference) or white like @Hypersphere suggested.
Finding a second-hand here in Turkey would be pretty hard, but still thanks!
swampangel wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 02:14
For a possibly more reliable alternative to the Matias switches, consider the KBP V80 with simplified white alps switches by Forward Electronics (Fuhua/Fukka). https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/usa ... yboard.asp
Yeah I've looked into these a bit, but they just sound a bit different than I thought they would sound like. Sort of sounds like more of a tactile switch rather than a clicky switch from what I can deduce. Still really nice though, thank you :)
Darkshado wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 03:05
Judging by your current TKL Razer and your interest in the V80, I can't recall any vintage "TKL" form-factor Alps boards: customs and the V80 are your only options.

If you're still ok with full size you have much more choice. Thinking out loud: what about click-modding a Dell Bigfoot?

I've had one Quiet Click switch chatter on my V80 but all that was needed to fix it was to open the switch and clean the contacts with high grade (> 95%) isopropyl alcohol. One theory is that the factory sometimes applies too much lubricant inside the switch and that it interferes with the contacts. In any case, the Matias Click switches are not lubricated so that wouldn't apply.

Given your location, warranty service on anything from the US would get expensive fast, so if you take your chances on the Matias switches, I recommend having a soldering iron or a friend with one just in case, to deal with any switch beyond repair.
I've started hearing this Dell Bigfoot more and more here recently since I've been here, is it really that popular? Thank you for the advice, I will definitely keep my soldering iron ready just in case :) Do you think I will be approached by any problems while using the Matias Click switches physically? I will definitely not be snacking while using the keyboard. I've heard that these things are just like the Alps, prone to dust and all. I might even get a small plastic poly sheet or something while I'm not using it for less dust accumulation while I'm not using it just for the keyboard.
abrahamstechnology wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 17:09
cineraphael wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 16:49
Do not come to Tucson because I cannot find any Alps Keyboard there, not even Dell AT101.
Same here.
Ah must suck, pretty much the same here. The online second-hand market here only has old rubber-dome keyboards that are worn to the ground...

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 11 Feb 2019, 22:25
by Muirium
Have you watched Chyros’s IBM keyboard videos? Buckling spring is the original and best clicky keyboard.

(Pedants note: yes, let’s not get started on beamspring, those make blue Alps look as cheap and plentiful as Razor’s junk!)

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 12 Feb 2019, 00:11
by Hypersphere
@Umut: Rather than my reproducing the information here, for an explanation of the differences among various Alps switches, a good place to start is the DT wiki. I suggest starting with the page on Alps SKCL/SKCM Series:

wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series

If you want only a slight change from what you are already accustomed to, you might try the CoolerMaster QuickFire Stealth with Cherry mx Green switches. It is a solid reliable board with tactile clicky switches that are fairly heavy with an actuation force of 80g. It also has the wire Costar-type stabilizers, which I like better than Cherry stabilizers.

If you want something very different but probably reliable, you could look at some vintage keyboards such as IBM Model M on sites such as eBay or, more reliable but probably a bit more expensive on Clickeykeyboards.com.

If you don't mind strage layouts, many people agree that IBM Model F boards have a much nicer sound and feel than Model M. Again, you can find IBM XT or AT keyboards on eBay, sometimes at reasonable prices. Keep in mind that the XT will require a special converter for use with a modern computer.

If you want to risk the possibility of getting unreliable switches, you could go with a Matias-switch keyboard either from Matias or from vendors that sell Matias-switch keyboards such as V60 or V80 from KBP. I have had good luck with KBP V60 boards, but I got them several years ago before the current problems with quality control.***

If you want genuine vintage Alps switches, you could again go to sources of used boards, such as eBay. Sometimes there are still reasonably priced boards in okay condition. I've had good luck with Northgate for tactile clicky white Alps. Regarding white Alps clones, I recently got an Ortek board for under $50 shipped.

*** EDIT: This is not quite accurate. I bought a KBP V60 Type R Polestar with Matias Click switches from Mechanicalkeyboards.com in late October of 2018. It had a slight problem with one of the switches -- it registered but didn't click. I could probably have fixed this myself, but because it was still under warranty, I returned it to exchange for another one. I am typing on it now.

I got the Type R, because it is completely programmable using QMK, and I like to remap my keyboards to a HHKB-type layout. I didn't want or need the RGB underglow effects, so I moved the board from the stock translucent case into a TEX aluminum case. I also replaced the stock ABS keycaps with dye-sublimated alpha keys from an IBM 5140 and blank black spacebar and modifiers from Matias. For a bit of color accent, I swapped out the Esc and Right Ctrl (which I use as my Fn key) with red caps from Tai-Hao. To silence the spacebar, I replaced the slider with one from a Matias Quiet switch and put thin foam strips on the plate where the stabilizer inserts make contact.

This is a snappy little board with good tactility and very audible clicks. Although the TEX aluminum case looks elegant and has nice heft, I think I prefer the plain black plastic cases that KBP uses for its standard Matias-switch keyboards. The hollow plastic serves as a sounding board and resonant chamber that amplifies the sound. This makes a Matias-switch board very loud, but in the aluminum case it sounds a bit anemic, like a Cherry blue-switch board.

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 12 Feb 2019, 05:30
by Darkshado
And because it is Alps, is this like a few decades old? If it is a few decades old, I think I'd rather go with Matias' just due to the durability.
The KBParadise and Matias-branded boards on the market are made with current-production "successor" or "clone" switches that share the same keycap mount, plate hole shape, pinout and general form-factor as the vintage Alps ones.

Before I forget: Dell AT101 == Dell "Bigfoot". Alps made lots of these "Bigfoot" boards and they were notably sold under the Alps, Dell, Bull, SGI, and Toshiba brands with various different switches and layouts. Because of the quantities that were made it's one of the more common old mechanicals people encounter. They're usually PS/2 so easy to convert, have decent build quality and the later ones even come with Windows keys if you care about those.

(You might also come across mentions of an IBM Bigfoot, a nickname for something completely different: a Model F, XT layout terminal board in an unusually large case with tall flip-out feet.)

Another potential source of Alps switches and Alps mount caps: old Apple keyboards. A full-size AEK or AEK II could be converted to USB using TMK.
Umut wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 20:11
The online second-hand market here only has old rubber-dome keyboards that are worn to the ground...
The makeup and quality of your local market for vintage mechanical keyboards will depend heavily on who sold computers in the late 1980s and early-to-mid 1990s before rubber domes took over.

It becomes a matter of personal taste, time and effort: would you rather buy something modern and ready to use; or do you enjoy searching for that bargain, that hidden treasure to restore to its former glory?

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 16 Feb 2019, 13:56
by Umut
I have come up with another plan. Building my own keyboard from scratch. I have gathered a few items from AliExpress. The keyboard will have cloned Alps-like Tai-Hao APC clickly blue switches. Do you think they will be better than Matias switches durability/reliability?

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 16 Feb 2019, 15:03
by swampangel
For actuation (sending keystrokes to the computer) they might be better. But they'll also drive you crazy because sometimes they stop clicking for a time and then start again (the click leaf gets stuck, although the switch still works).

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 16 Feb 2019, 15:08
by Hypersphere
Umut wrote:
16 Feb 2019, 13:56
I have come up with another plan. Building my own keyboard from scratch. I have gathered a few items from AliExpress. The keyboard will have cloned Alps-like Tai-Hao APC clickly blue switches. Do you think they will be better than Matias switches durability/reliability?
I've heard that the Tai-Hao APC switches are inconsistent. You would probably do better to source Alps switches by desoldering them from vintage Alps-switch keyboards.

Alternatively, for convenience and reliability, you could purchase new Cherry mx or mx clones switches.

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 16 Feb 2019, 19:35
by abrahamstechnology
Umut wrote:
16 Feb 2019, 13:56
I have come up with another plan. Building my own keyboard from scratch. I have gathered a few items from AliExpress. The keyboard will have cloned Alps-like Tai-Hao APC clickly blue switches. Do you think they will be better than Matias switches durability/reliability?
I suggest going with AK-CN2 switches instead, they don't have the inconsistent click problem like Tai-Haos do.
Unfortunately, they don't have any in stock so it would take a few weeks after my group buy ends to manufacture them.

Re: Help me out on my quest

Posted: 16 Feb 2019, 20:27
by mike52787
or just get real alps... not like they are hard to find.