ISO users

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vvp

02 Apr 2019, 21:57

vometia wrote:
02 Apr 2019, 19:53
The compose key: I'm astonished it never found its way into Windows as it's so useful for doing stuff like this on any keyboard without needing to know arcane and obscure control codes.
A friend using windows reported that this works well (at least on Win10 ... and probably on older versions as well):
https://github.com/SamHocevar/wincompose

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phinix

02 Apr 2019, 22:28

I understand MOQs and all that, but this is really a pain sometimes when you have to buy the whole NorDeUK kit to get 1/3 of it usefull.

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Telstar

03 Apr 2019, 03:27

I do, and couldnt type on ansi. Silly tiny enter.

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Telstar

03 Apr 2019, 03:29

phinix wrote:
02 Apr 2019, 22:28
I understand MOQs and all that, but this is really a pain sometimes when you have to buy the whole NorDeUK kit to get 1/3 of it usefull.
At least you can. Nobody makes GMK or other quality sets with ITA keys.

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depletedvespene

03 Apr 2019, 03:29

Telstar wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 03:27
I do, and couldnt type on ansi. Silly tiny enter.
You'd hate having to use a Kishsaver, then, with its TIE Enter key. :mrgreen:

spongebob1981

03 Apr 2019, 14:33

TLDR: down with base kits that only cater to U.S.A. users. Make the base set inclusive to most languages.

As an enthusiast that has never bought a set (so my opinion should not be taken too seriously) I think that as consumers we are entitled to ask the few companies that make keycaps to start selling extended base sets, which will have to cover most languages. After all, most of us are not in the US and would need special keys or blanks to function without adaptation.

The prices for base sets are bad enough, specially when adding shipping and importing taxes, to even think of nearly doubling it all to include our beloved eñes and çedillas.

Vanilla sets users (like, say, guys from the U.S.A.) will then have to pay for a full set that they'll never use but: a) since everybody is getting the extra keys the price should approach the original bare bones set price and b) they'll have a full international set to sell to others from all around, not just other U.S.A. buyers.

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vvp

03 Apr 2019, 16:00

spongebob1981:
That it never going to happen. Production keycap prices are in cents and you want increase that price few times. And what about environmental aspect of this. Most keyboard users would be throwing away a lot of keycaps they do not use.

It is not only eñes, çedillas, carons, ...
It is also cyrillic, greek, all the glyphs I call "broken tee" (chinese, ...), ...

If you care about correct legends that much then get relegendable keycaps.

User avatar
ingmar

03 Apr 2019, 16:17

vvp wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 16:00
If you care about correct legends that much then get relegendable keycaps.
I don't, and blanks will be fine, if at least they'd give us an ISO enter + additional key more often. Catering to ANSI only really show a very narrow point of view.

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Telstar

03 Apr 2019, 19:39

spongebob is right, but it will require more ppl to be interested in buying other language caps to have them sold more often.

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Howard81

04 Apr 2019, 15:16

I prefer ISO and use a UK layout myself; I can't get used to the narrow Enter key on ANSI, I like a nice big Enter key to mash! I also like having \ and / either side of the bottom row, plus the Alt Gr function (which doesn't get used too often in UK English but is handy to have when you do need it).

In fact since the `¬¦ key is pretty much useless, what would be nice is a big-arse Enter and the #~ key moved to that corner.. Hmm, I wonder if a Model F AT Enter would fit on my Model M...
vometia wrote:
02 Apr 2019, 19:53
The compose key: I'm astonished it never found its way into Windows as it's so useful for doing stuff like this on any keyboard without needing to know arcane and obscure control codes. There are a few fiddly examples (e.g. ñ is particularly irritating to type IME) but they can generally be reprogrammed with little effort; plus you get to write things like Spın̈al Tap properly. :D
The IBM Selectric, (which interestingly also had an "ISO style" Enter key for all regions) had an optional dead key feature for this very reason. In fact, the Selectric II keyboard is one of my all-time favourites.

Pumaeggs

04 Apr 2019, 17:32

My main keyboard is a weird mix of ISO and ANSI (Bigass enter and long left shift). i honestly prefer it to standard ANSI.

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Telstar

04 Apr 2019, 17:40

Howard81 wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 15:16
The IBM Selectric, (which interestingly also had an "ISO style" Enter key for all regions) had an optional dead key feature for this very reason. In fact, the Selectric II keyboard is one of my all-time favourites.
There is (was?) a big enter key for ANSI layout too, with the L shape turned on the lower side.

spongebob1981

04 Apr 2019, 19:44

vvp wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 16:00
That it never going to happen.
My thoughts exactly. And I asked not to bee taken too seriously after all :lol:
vvp wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 16:00
Production keycap prices are in cents and you want increase that price few times. And what about environmental aspect of this. Most keyboard users would be throwing away a lot of keycaps they do not use.
The bunch of the cost is not the plastic but the machinery. I feel (not know, feel) that if a base kit of 70 keys costs, lets say $100 (when selling 200 of them), a kit of 170 keys would end up costing closer to $120. With the current system, the cost of each language addon set has to be covered by far less people.
The enviromental aspect is not that critical: we are a small bunch of people, and the unused keys are not going to the trash. The regular domes keyboards are the far greater evil here :mrgreen:
vvp wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 16:00
It is not only eñes, çedillas, carons, ...
It is also cyrillic, greek, all the glyphs I call "broken tee" (chinese, ...), ...
Indeed.
vvp wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 16:00
If you care about correct legends that much then get relegendable keycaps.
I touch type, I don't care that much. But some people don't and, frankly, it's nicer to have the correct keycaps =)

Telstar wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 19:39
spongebob is right, but it will require more ppl to be interested in buying other language caps to have them sold more often.
The idea is that everybody would buy every set so the price should go down significantly.

Anyways, don't mind me, I'll go back to lurk.

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Telstar

04 Apr 2019, 20:26

don't go, i was lurking too, but here I am :)
Problem is when you add the biggest international layout (not just those 3) the price for the set will go much higher, like too much and no MOQ.

Menuhin

04 Apr 2019, 21:21

I'm not an ISO user, I have to ask out of curiosity:

Which (right hand) finger do you hit the ISO Enter with?
1. Pinky?
2. Ring?
3. Middle?

Pinky has to reach further for an ISO enter than for an ANSI enter, but there are more up-and-down row leeway as the ISO enter crosses two rows.

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depletedvespene

04 Apr 2019, 21:37

Menuhin wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 21:21
I'm not an ISO user, I have to ask out of curiosity:

Which (right hand) finger do you hit the ISO Enter with?
1. Pinky?
2. Ring?
3. Middle?

Pinky has to reach further for an ISO enter than for an ANSI enter, but there are more up-and-down row leeway as the ISO enter crosses two rows.
In my case, I use the pinky finger, AND I hit the Enter key exclusively on the lower half. This stems from an eight-years-long inadvertent self-training, where I used an ISO Model M keyboard at work and an ANSI Model M SSK unit at home. As far as I can see, other people around here (meatspace, not DT) tend to press the ISO Enter key on the middle of it.

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Telstar

04 Apr 2019, 21:53

Mostly pinky.

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vvp

04 Apr 2019, 22:11

spongebob1981:
I thought you meant it for every keyboard, not only for enthusiasts' keycap sets.
But there is not much difference in reasoning except the price. It costs about a buck when a part of a keybaord and from 15 up when sold separately. And the lower price range will not have any non-US legends.
Tooling is a significant part only for low volumes like our standalone keycap sets represent. There is very little buyers for them which results in "ridiculous" price.
The quotations for moulds I read on geekhack were somewhere in the range of $ 10k - 20k.

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Telstar

04 Apr 2019, 22:16

For this reason there is ZERO keycaps which are double-shots in ISO-IT layout either within a kebyoard or sold separately.
The best I can get are PBT dye-sub, and I plan to do some custom runs of DSA dye-sub, if not laser printed for the 11 specific text keys. This means no light legends on dark keys ever.

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depletedvespene

04 Apr 2019, 22:20

Telstar wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 22:16
For this reason there is ZERO keycaps which are double-shots in ISO-IT layout either within a kebyoard or sold separately.
The best I can get are PBT dye-sub, and I plan to do some custom runs of DSA dye-sub, if not laser printed for the 11 specific text keys. This means no light legends on dark keys ever.
If you're gonna dyesub, I know a guy that does a good job of it... (not joking here)

Also, go with the Nuovo Italiano layout. It's better! :mrgreen:

User avatar
Telstar

05 Apr 2019, 00:10

depletedvespene wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 22:20
Telstar wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 22:16
For this reason there is ZERO keycaps which are double-shots in ISO-IT layout either within a kebyoard or sold separately.
The best I can get are PBT dye-sub, and I plan to do some custom runs of DSA dye-sub, if not laser printed for the 11 specific text keys. This means no light legends on dark keys ever.
If you're gonna dyesub, I know a guy that does a good job of it... (not joking here)
Sure, shoot the name.
Also, go with the Nuovo Italiano layout. It's better! :mrgreen:
Link?

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depletedvespene

05 Apr 2019, 01:32

Telstar wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 00:10
depletedvespene wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 22:20
Telstar wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 22:16
For this reason there is ZERO keycaps which are double-shots in ISO-IT layout either within a kebyoard or sold separately.
The best I can get are PBT dye-sub, and I plan to do some custom runs of DSA dye-sub, if not laser printed for the 11 specific text keys. This means no light legends on dark keys ever.
If you're gonna dyesub, I know a guy that does a good job of it... (not joking here)
Sure, shoot the name.
Also, go with the Nuovo Italiano layout. It's better! :mrgreen:
Link?
I'll shoot you a PM.

User avatar
Cholo

05 Apr 2019, 08:42

Telstar wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 22:16
For this reason there is ZERO keycaps which are double-shots in ISO-IT layout either within a kebyoard or sold separately.
The best I can get are PBT dye-sub, and I plan to do some custom runs of DSA dye-sub, if not laser printed for the 11 specific text keys. This means no light legends on dark keys ever.
I was in the Drop for the Matt3o's MT3 on Massdrop from the beginning, after many delays I give up on the drop about a week before the shipping (I was buying an house, very low on money).

I don't think I have more regret for something I didn't buy than this, tbh. :(
Even when a keycap set has international kit, it's so hard to find a proper IT layout.
I don't think I ever see one excluded the Matt3o's ones (granite, MT3 and such).

I bought a custom set on maxkeyboard as alternative, but the quality is really poor abs.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

05 Apr 2019, 09:02

I add ISO-IT every time I can (dye-sub of course)... when I get stats from massdrop there are like 4 orders from Italy and only 1 got the international kit. Less talk, more buy! :D (kidding of course)

TheBarista

05 Apr 2019, 13:22

Findecanor wrote:
02 Apr 2019, 13:27
TheBarista wrote:
02 Apr 2019, 12:58
Just got hold of a Model M with norwegian layout, so I do now. Really like the bigass enter and gotta have the Æ Å Ø.
Did you really get a Model M or did you get a Model F AT?
The Model F AT's kind of Enter key is what is more commonly called "Big-Ass Enter" around here. ;)

Hmm... Maybe a "big-ass" Enter key would fit on the Model M. I have not tried. Most Model M and F keys are interchangeable.
Aaaahh, alright! my bad! Yeah def a Model M and not a model F.

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Telstar

05 Apr 2019, 14:49

matt3o wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 09:02
I add ISO-IT every time I can (dye-sub of course)... when I get stats from massdrop there are like 4 orders from Italy and only 1 got the international kit. Less talk, more buy! :D (kidding of course)
I think they are poorly advertised? I got the ePBT from aliexpress so far.
I find a bit hard to follow updates on Massdrop, but i'll pay more attention. And there is the Customs issue from all USA shipments that adds to it.

BTW, I know quite a few people that just use the international ANSI to get all possible choices. They do NOT use their keeb to write ;)

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depletedvespene

05 Apr 2019, 15:22

Telstar wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 14:49
BTW, I know quite a few people that just use the international ANSI to get all possible choices. They do NOT use their keeb to write ;)
What is their point, then? They should get those cheap "switch testers" instead, so they can display their artisans and whatnot and... waitasec, didn't massdrop already produce something to that effect? :roll:

User avatar
Cholo

05 Apr 2019, 21:22

Telstar wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 14:49
I think they are poorly advertised? I got the ePBT from aliexpress so far.
I find a bit hard to follow updates on Massdrop, but i'll pay more attention. And there is the Customs issue from all USA shipments that adds to it.
ePBT? What is it?
matt3o wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 09:02
I add ISO-IT every time I can (dye-sub of course)... when I get stats from massdrop there are like 4 orders from Italy and only 1 got the international kit. Less talk, more buy! :D (kidding of course)
Indeed.
Do you think there will ever be a second chance to see an MT3 drop?
(I know they recently put some remains on sale but there wasn't international and modifiers kit available).

User avatar
Telstar

05 Apr 2019, 21:46

enjoyPBT.

Findecanor

05 Apr 2019, 22:14

Telstar wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 21:46
enjoyPBT.
You can find it on KbdFans for instance. I believe it is manufactured by Gateron.

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