Cursed model F thread

User avatar
Wazrach

20 May 2019, 22:23

Oh cool, so the bolt mod isn't actually working now? I've been messing with the tension a few times, and now the key feel is shit regardless of how tight the bolts are. I can see in the light that the bolts have actually created dimples in the barrel frame. I don't know if this is normal for the bolt mod, or what. I also don't know if my packing foam has simply compressed fully and will not expand anymore. Really though, I'm just about fed up. I can't believe this shit. I really can't.

I ordered F122 foam from Ellipse for $60 shipped, so if this doesn't work then I'm going to take a fucking hammer to it.

Fkazim

21 May 2019, 01:23

Sorry to hear you are having trouble with your IBM Model F122 I would say remove the bolts completely then put in Ellipses foam and see how it goes good luck :D

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

21 May 2019, 02:36

Wazrach wrote:
20 May 2019, 22:23

I ordered F122 foam from Ellipse for $60 shipped,
You complain about money for shipping, yet numerous people have volunteered to put this together for you for the cost of round trip postage.

I think that it is about time that you send your keyboard to someone, in another country if necessary, and have them do it for you, or shut the fuck up.

It's not rocket science, and you don't even have to figure it out for yourself like most of us do.

PS - that said, I have run across the occasional 122 that is considerably more obstreperous than usual

Fkazim

21 May 2019, 09:57

OK first of all you have to use relatively thick foam (3mm) otherwise the barrels closer to the centre will be extremely loose. Second thing don't use any bolts and I'm not saying this because the bolts ruin the originality. The reason I am saying this and this is from my experience from the 10 Model F Keyboards I have refurbished and none of them I have ever performed a bolt mod on. Bolt modding a Model F goes against all the engineering the Model F has for instance Model M's use melted plastic rivets and plastic deteriorates thus NEEDING bolts or screws. Model F's have the steel tabs for a reason. Doing the bolt mod on an Model F is just a waste of time and doubling your work IMO not to mention risking damaging the PCB drilling through it. As long as you use thick enough foam you will not mess up the feel.

John Doe

28 May 2019, 18:24

Congratulations for the issue solved.

I'm also restoring my new "shit condition" F122 these days. For the foam replacement, I think 2mm EVA is a nice option in any way, its soft and hard, useful and cheap.

Some pics I taken, hope bit help for someone in the future:
Spoiler:
20190529001011.jpg
20190529001011.jpg (130.52 KiB) Viewed 686 times
15mm-diameter punch really help a lot:
Spoiler:
20190529001029.jpg
20190529001029.jpg (147.42 KiB) Viewed 686 times
20190529001039.jpg
20190529001039.jpg (140.13 KiB) Viewed 686 times
20190529001056.jpg
20190529001056.jpg (145.45 KiB) Viewed 686 times
20190529001106.jpg
20190529001106.jpg (153.8 KiB) Viewed 686 times
Finally what's it looks like, far away from perfect but typing feeling awesome after whole keyboard reassembled:
Spoiler:
20190529001112.jpg
20190529001112.jpg (154.82 KiB) Viewed 686 times

User avatar
Wazrach

28 May 2019, 20:05

John Doe wrote:
28 May 2019, 18:24
Congratulations for the issue solved.

I'm also restoring my new "shit condition" F122 these days. For the foam replacement, I think 2mm EVA is a nice option in any way, its soft and hard, useful and cheap.

Some pics I taken, hope bit help for someone in the future:
Spoiler:
20190529001011.jpg
15mm-diameter punch really help a lot:
Spoiler:
20190529001029.jpg

20190529001039.jpg

20190529001056.jpg

20190529001106.jpg
Finally what's it looks like, far away from perfect but typing feeling awesome after whole keyboard reassembled:
Spoiler:
20190529001112.jpg
I originally asked if you would be able to link the product you used, but you can never get the same stuff in the UK. :P I made yet another mat out of the exact stuff Fkazim mentioned, but again, it's far too firm and will not compress near the middle three tabs. Foam companies are still ignoring me when I go to them for soft, 3mm foam. I mean, how hard can it fucking be to get this material? Seriously.

I'll try the 2mm version of this, instead of 3mm: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLACK-NEOPRE ... 2749.l2649

I did originally order replacement F122 foam from Ellipse, but I decided to change it to a down payment for a brand new F-77. :P

Is there not a set-in-stone way I can compress the foam near the three middle tabs under the 24 function keys? Is there not some kind of special clamp that will evenly distribute pressure there?

User avatar
Wazrach

28 May 2019, 20:26

The bolt mod "not working" is mostly my fault, as I did rush with the thin packaging foam, which is filled with little bubbles of air. Through overtightening, I obviously crushed it completely so that it was no better than the original, disintegrated foam. I'm not sure about the huge dimples in the metal though.

Fkazim

28 May 2019, 22:47

Hi Wazrach I have recently done another foam replacement on an IBM Model F XT with the 3mm neoprene foam I linked you before. If you would like I could change the foam for you and I will also be sure to let you know any tips and tricks that I discover along the way of replacing the foam. Anyway here is a video below of a sound test of the IBM Model F XT with the new foam please let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Link to the sound test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mdAQ9x1NqY

User avatar
Wazrach

28 May 2019, 23:49

Fkazim wrote:
28 May 2019, 22:47
Hi Wazrach I have recently done another foam replacement on an IBM Model F XT with the 3mm neoprene foam I linked you before. If you would like I could change the foam for you and I will also be sure to let you know any tips and tricks that I discover along the way of replacing the foam. Anyway here is a video below of a sound test of the IBM Model F XT with the new foam please let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Link to the sound test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mdAQ9x1NqY
WTF? That sounds crisp and fantastic all over. HOW?

I hate to ask, but would you do a full-on typing demo by actually typing on it? I'd appreciate that. It does help to get a feel for the sound better. Thanks!

User avatar
Wazrach

28 May 2019, 23:51

Really though, nice work. That sounds amazing. What I'd give to get my XTs (I have three disassembled) and my F122 to sound as firm as that. If we're using the same stuff, I must be doing something wrong.

Fkazim

29 May 2019, 00:05

Not really sure what you are doing wrong but if it helps this is how I clamped my keyboard for the reassembly see the attached image
Attachments
IMG_20190526_184706.jpg
IMG_20190526_184706.jpg (610.62 KiB) Viewed 601 times

User avatar
Wazrach

29 May 2019, 00:09

Fkazim wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:05
Not really sure what you are doing wrong but if it helps this is how I clamped my keyboard for the reassembly see the attached image
That's interesting, you use C-clamps. I think I'll buy some of those and give them a try.

User avatar
PlacaFromHell

29 May 2019, 00:13

Wazrach wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:09
Fkazim wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:05
Not really sure what you are doing wrong but if it helps this is how I clamped my keyboard for the reassembly see the attached image
That's interesting, you use C-clamps. I think I'll buy some of those and give them a try.
You have to be very careful with them, I damaged my plates a bit using C clamps.

Fkazim

29 May 2019, 00:13

Also here is an image of my Foam all cut out compared to the original top is the original IBM Foam yes NOT disintegrated surprisingly and bottom is my new foam made out of the 3mm neoprene foam.
Attachments
IMG_20190523_001310.jpg
IMG_20190523_001310.jpg (820.04 KiB) Viewed 581 times

User avatar
Wazrach

29 May 2019, 00:17

Fkazim wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:13
Also here is an image of my Foam all cut out compared to the original top is the original IBM Foam yes NOT disintegrated surprisingly and bottom is my new foam made out of the 3mm neoprene foam.
Lovely work! Where are the holes for the XT barrel tabs?

Fkazim

29 May 2019, 00:18

PlacaFromHell wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:13
Wazrach wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:09
Fkazim wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:05
Not really sure what you are doing wrong but if it helps this is how I clamped my keyboard for the reassembly see the attached image
That's interesting, you use C-clamps. I think I'll buy some of those and give them a try.
You have to be very careful with them, I damaged my plates a bit using C clamps.
Yes I also deeply scratched the back plate but that was more because the protecting foam I put slipped out as I was tightening the clamp and I did not notice :(

Fkazim

29 May 2019, 00:20

Wazrach wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:17
Fkazim wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:13
Also here is an image of my Foam all cut out compared to the original top is the original IBM Foam yes NOT disintegrated surprisingly and bottom is my new foam made out of the 3mm neoprene foam.
Lovely work! Where are the holes for the XT barrel tabs?
I cut my new foam shorter so it did not interfere with the locking tabs. It really makes no difference in the firmness and the strength of the keyboard assembly.
Last edited by Fkazim on 29 May 2019, 03:35, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Wazrach

29 May 2019, 00:21

Fkazim wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:20
Wazrach wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:17
Fkazim wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:13
Also here is an image of my Foam all cut out compared to the original top is the original IBM Foam yes NOT disintegrated surprisingly and bottom is my new foam made out of the 3mm neoprene foam.
Lovely work! Where are the holes for the XT barrel tabs?
I cut the my new foam shorter so it did not interfere with the locking tabs. It really makes no difference in the firmness and the strength of the keyboard assembly.
Sorry, just to confirm, we're talking about the little spikes on the barrels that poke through the barrel frame?

Fkazim

29 May 2019, 00:30

ah sorry I misunderstood you for those they poke their own holes as the spikes are reasonably sharp.

User avatar
Wazrach

29 May 2019, 00:34

Fkazim wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:30
ah sorry I misunderstood you for those they poke their own holes as the spikes are reasonably sharp.
Oh god, really? I tried that in the past, and the fit was never snug. I should experiment again sometime.

Fkazim

29 May 2019, 01:25

yeah thats what I have done on all my IBM Model F keyboard foam changes

John Doe

29 May 2019, 05:01

Wazrach wrote:
28 May 2019, 20:05
John Doe wrote:
28 May 2019, 18:24
Congratulations for the issue solved.

I'm also restoring my new "shit condition" F122 these days. For the foam replacement, I think 2mm EVA is a nice option in any way, its soft and hard, useful and cheap.

Some pics I taken, hope bit help for someone in the future:
Spoiler:
20190529001011.jpg
15mm-diameter punch really help a lot:
Spoiler:
20190529001029.jpg

20190529001039.jpg

20190529001056.jpg

20190529001106.jpg
Finally what's it looks like, far away from perfect but typing feeling awesome after whole keyboard reassembled:
Spoiler:
20190529001112.jpg
I originally asked if you would be able to link the product you used, but you can never get the same stuff in the UK. :P I made yet another mat out of the exact stuff Fkazim mentioned, but again, it's far too firm and will not compress near the middle three tabs. Foam companies are still ignoring me when I go to them for soft, 3mm foam. I mean, how hard can it fucking be to get this material? Seriously.

I'll try the 2mm version of this, instead of 3mm: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLACK-NEOPRE ... 2749.l2649

I did originally order replacement F122 foam from Ellipse, but I decided to change it to a down payment for a brand new F-77. :P

Is there not a set-in-stone way I can compress the foam near the three middle tabs under the 24 function keys? Is there not some kind of special clamp that will evenly distribute pressure there?

I do have the link where I get the EVA mat, hmmm, a big mat and then cut it into pieces for different ibm Fs actually, but no idea if you will be glad it's from Taobao. Good point is you could buy a huge one at once with a low cost for the mat itself, plus shipping cost still reasonable compared with the Ellipse's more perfect mat but 60$. I think I can sure this.
I said I had restored several model fs, right? The experience I learned is 3mm and 2mm thickness both function well for XT or AT. The plates are smaller then you could handle this with your hand directly or under some normal clamps's help, lot of guys mentioned this before. But for 122, given the more huge plate and tabs in the center under the F1-F12, you really need one or two C-style clamps, just as Fkazim showed above. I read some guides somewhere to drill holes on the PCB and use screws to tie the PCB and barrel plate tensely, that's a really good idea of course. But I don't want to do so much work and risk to break the PCB as lacking tricks or experience ,so I used four normal clamps, a C-style one and an extra long clamp to easily re-assembled the board but forgot to take photos, sorry for this.
Spoiler:
20190529102450.jpg
20190529102450.jpg (200.54 KiB) Viewed 483 times
20190529102443.jpg
20190529102443.jpg (137.65 KiB) Viewed 483 times
I hope to update the reply with a test video soon after I finish the converter, its my first time to do this, so Im still reading the Soarer's guide now. Emmm, bit difficult and significant for me. And below are some pics for the board re-assembled, top case ruined totally, luckily I have another M122 case to replace it, more mod work should be done tho. The last pic is beamspring 3278 foam replacement with same 2mm EVA. Hope could help someone indeed.
Spoiler:
20190529102343.jpg
20190529102343.jpg (201.3 KiB) Viewed 483 times
20190529102426.jpg
20190529102426.jpg (168.74 KiB) Viewed 483 times
20190529102416.jpg
20190529102416.jpg (166.98 KiB) Viewed 483 times
20190529102401.jpg
20190529102401.jpg (159.03 KiB) Viewed 483 times

20190529102504.jpg
20190529102504.jpg (188.33 KiB) Viewed 483 times

User avatar
snacksthecat
✶✶✶✶

02 Jun 2019, 02:31

Image

Keyboard is curse how fix?

Fkazim

02 Jun 2019, 03:05

Is that a Model F122 damn best thing I can think of is to use something like plastic weld or epoxy then paint over the repaired area.

User avatar
ZedTheMan

02 Jun 2019, 10:16

snacksthecat wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 02:31
Image

Keyboard is curse how fix?
Snacks, you find a disproportionate amount of cursed keyboards. I think it all comes back to the deal with the devil you made for all of those televideo keyboards.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

02 Jun 2019, 14:43

snacksthecat wrote:
02 Jun 2019, 02:31

Keyboard is curse how fix?
I discussed that in my guide, and all my repairs have been successful. JB Weld is the greatest, but it is dark gray, so I used "Charcoal Gray" Dupli-Color from the auto supply store to make all my repaired cases modern and dark.

User avatar
dcopellino

10 Jun 2019, 11:08

Fkazim wrote:
29 May 2019, 00:05
Not really sure what you are doing wrong but if it helps this is how I clamped my keyboard for the reassembly see the attached image
Hi everyone and sorry if I ask something that might seem trivial to many veterans here. Surely I missed something in disassembling and assembling model F's early posts.
So I am going to take advantage of Fkazim's posto to ask WHY everyone here is opening and closing model F's using clamps and then have top and bottom plates slided with the help of an hammer or a even bigger clamp, if i didn't understand badly.

In my little experience with two foam replacements I find much easier and less traumatic opening and closing the assembly as if I had to open a book. Practically, I let meet the lower metallic tabs of the of the upper plate with the lower ones, slightly slanting it. Afterwards, I press the two plate approaching them in order to use the pliers for fastening the upper metallic tabs with a little twist allowing them to tightly fit together.
Given I don't think to be the only smart guy here, what do you think of my procedure? What is wrong with it? and above all which are the advantages of following the one that uses the clamps and complicates so much your lives? I don't think that the outcomes achieved with "my system" are so different from the other in terms of crispness of the click/clack pinging key press obtained at the end of the assembly.
Please let me know your thoughts about my considerations. Thanks for answering.

Anakey

10 Jun 2019, 11:35

i think by using clamps and forcing the backplate into the tabs rather then bending the tabs themselves means that there is no mechanical stress put on the tabs unlike what your method would involve by bending the tabs out of the way.

Fkazim

10 Jun 2019, 14:12

Anakey wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 11:35
i think by using clamps and forcing the backplate into the tabs rather then bending the tabs themselves means that there is no mechanical stress put on the tabs unlike what your method would involve by bending the tabs out of the way.
Exactly and not to mention if you ever want separate the plates again by bending the tabs you risk snapping the tabs purely because of the metal fatigue.

So using clamps and a mallet is a much safer and more future proofed way of replacing the Model F foam.

Post Reply

Return to “Keyboards”