Help with a cursed model F 122

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PlacaFromHell

10 May 2019, 06:31

Hello guys. Recently I got an IBM model F 122 in pretty bad condition. After a foam replacement an a good clean it started to look well. The keyboard works fine for some time, but suddenly starts to send tons of text to my PC and make really weird things (like send screenshots to my Discord contacts). I'ts imposible to use in this state. I tried with two different Soarer's converters directly connected to it and is the same shit. His favorite keys are Capslock, 2, 7, F3, and º. What could be?

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//gainsborough
ALPSの日常

10 May 2019, 06:38

Sounds haunted - bonfire kindling seems appropriate.

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ZedTheMan

10 May 2019, 06:39

I wonder if your best solution would be replacing the controller with a capsense?

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snacksthecat
✶✶✶✶

10 May 2019, 06:43

:) another cursed board! Spooky!

It sounds like a grounding issue.

I forget what the inside of this board looks like but make sure the screw(s)/nut(s) that hold the controller board in place are good and tight.

As for the Soarer’s converters, did you make them yourself? I have another idea in case the first didn’t solve your issue.

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PlacaFromHell

10 May 2019, 07:01

snacksthecat wrote:
10 May 2019, 06:43
:) another cursed board! Spooky!

It sounds like a grounding issue.

I forget what the inside of this board looks like but make sure the screw(s)/nut(s) that hold the controller board in place are good and tight.

As for the Soarer’s converters, did you make them yourself? I have another idea in case the first didn’t solve your issue.
I'll se the grounding tomorrow. Both converters are made by me.
ZedTheMan wrote:
10 May 2019, 06:39
I wonder if your best solution would be replacing the controller with a capsense?
Is an easy and guaranteed solution, but I want to avoid that as much as is possible.

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PlacaFromHell

10 May 2019, 21:04

One side of the PCB was not touching the plate. I thighten it and now it's working fine. Thanks again Snacks, I don't know what would be of me without you.

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ZedTheMan

10 May 2019, 21:48

Thanks for helping another compared to my over the top idea, snacks!

Wazrach

10 May 2019, 21:48

PlacaFromHell wrote:
10 May 2019, 21:04
One side of the PCB was not touching the plate. I thighten it and now it's working fine. Thanks again Snacks, I don't know what would be of me without you.
Congratulations on fixing the haunted keyboard... haha.

I just got mine today, it's really damn good... I love the noise, although I agree with what you said about the F 122 having a "loose" feeling. I uploaded a sound test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP0xXz_4Pvo

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PlacaFromHell

11 May 2019, 03:51

Wazrach wrote:
10 May 2019, 21:48
PlacaFromHell wrote:
10 May 2019, 21:04
One side of the PCB was not touching the plate. I thighten it and now it's working fine. Thanks again Snacks, I don't know what would be of me without you.
Congratulations on fixing the haunted keyboard... haha.

I just got mine today, it's really damn good... I love the noise, although I agree with what you said about the F 122 having a "loose" feeling. I uploaded a sound test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP0xXz_4Pvo
Cool. Is the foam in bad condition or you have been lucky?
Dude, I would kill someone for a Blue Snowball like that.

Wazrach

11 May 2019, 09:30

PlacaFromHell wrote:
11 May 2019, 03:51
Wazrach wrote:
10 May 2019, 21:48
PlacaFromHell wrote:
10 May 2019, 21:04
One side of the PCB was not touching the plate. I thighten it and now it's working fine. Thanks again Snacks, I don't know what would be of me without you.
Congratulations on fixing the haunted keyboard... haha.

I just got mine today, it's really damn good... I love the noise, although I agree with what you said about the F 122 having a "loose" feeling. I uploaded a sound test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP0xXz_4Pvo
Cool. Is the foam in bad condition or you have been lucky?
Dude, I would kill someone for a Blue Snowball like that.
I haven't opened the keyboard yet, so I'm not sure. I'm guessing it's okay for now. Why would you kill for a Blue Snowball? haha

Wazrach

11 May 2019, 16:28

PlacaFromHell wrote:
11 May 2019, 03:51
Wazrach wrote:
10 May 2019, 21:48
PlacaFromHell wrote:
10 May 2019, 21:04
One side of the PCB was not touching the plate. I thighten it and now it's working fine. Thanks again Snacks, I don't know what would be of me without you.
Congratulations on fixing the haunted keyboard... haha.

I just got mine today, it's really damn good... I love the noise, although I agree with what you said about the F 122 having a "loose" feeling. I uploaded a sound test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP0xXz_4Pvo
Cool. Is the foam in bad condition or you have been lucky?
Dude, I would kill someone for a Blue Snowball like that.
On second thoughts, I am guessing the foam isn't in the best condition. I removed the keycaps to clean the barrel frame, and after reassembling - the keys make the same spongy sound as my other Models F do when the foam is bad. Fantastic. I love how everything I touch ends up fucked. It'll be just my luck, I will end up opening it to replace the foam and it'll be even worse. Also, the S key seems to have magically developed an issue and doesn't reset properly.

Lbibass

11 May 2019, 17:29

Wazrach wrote:
11 May 2019, 16:28
PlacaFromHell wrote:
11 May 2019, 03:51
Wazrach wrote:
10 May 2019, 21:48


Congratulations on fixing the haunted keyboard... haha.

I just got mine today, it's really damn good... I love the noise, although I agree with what you said about the F 122 having a "loose" feeling. I uploaded a sound test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP0xXz_4Pvo
Cool. Is the foam in bad condition or you have been lucky?
Dude, I would kill someone for a Blue Snowball like that.
On second thoughts, I am guessing the foam isn't in the best condition. I removed the keycaps to clean the barrel frame, and after reassembling - the keys make the same spongy sound as my other Models F do when the foam is bad. Fantastic. I love how everything I touch ends up fucked. It'll be just my luck, I will end up opening it to replace the foam and it'll be even worse. Also, the S key seems to have magically developed an issue and doesn't reset properly.

Boy, that sucks. I am going to have to take apart my IBM AT and replace the foam on that board too. I think a cat pissed in it. Smells like piss. And the foam is in bad shape.

Wazrach

11 May 2019, 18:22

Lbibass wrote:
11 May 2019, 17:29
Wazrach wrote:
11 May 2019, 16:28
PlacaFromHell wrote:
11 May 2019, 03:51


Cool. Is the foam in bad condition or you have been lucky?
Dude, I would kill someone for a Blue Snowball like that.
On second thoughts, I am guessing the foam isn't in the best condition. I removed the keycaps to clean the barrel frame, and after reassembling - the keys make the same spongy sound as my other Models F do when the foam is bad. Fantastic. I love how everything I touch ends up fucked. It'll be just my luck, I will end up opening it to replace the foam and it'll be even worse. Also, the S key seems to have magically developed an issue and doesn't reset properly.

Boy, that sucks. I am going to have to take apart my IBM AT and replace the foam on that board too. I think a cat pissed in it. Smells like piss. And the foam is in bad shape.
It's always interesting to smell a keyboard after unboxing it. I must say, cat piss is a new one. How does yours feel and sound?

I didn't have any issues with either of my ATs (both of which I sold) when cleaning them. In fact both of them, especially the second one, were crisp as hell. The foam was serviceable in both of them, although I didn't open the assembly to find out properly. I noticed the two outermost tabs were crimped over the backplate on these, with at least one other slightly bent to tighten things further.

Lbibass

11 May 2019, 18:42

Wazrach wrote:
11 May 2019, 18:22
Lbibass wrote:
11 May 2019, 17:29
Wazrach wrote:
11 May 2019, 16:28


On second thoughts, I am guessing the foam isn't in the best condition. I removed the keycaps to clean the barrel frame, and after reassembling - the keys make the same spongy sound as my other Models F do when the foam is bad. Fantastic. I love how everything I touch ends up fucked. It'll be just my luck, I will end up opening it to replace the foam and it'll be even worse. Also, the S key seems to have magically developed an issue and doesn't reset properly.

Boy, that sucks. I am going to have to take apart my IBM AT and replace the foam on that board too. I think a cat pissed in it. Smells like piss. And the foam is in bad shape.
It's always interesting to smell a keyboard after unboxing it. I must say, cat piss is a new one. How does yours feel and sound?

I didn't have any issues with either of my ATs (both of which I sold) when cleaning them. In fact both of them, especially the second one, were crisp as hell. The foam was serviceable in both of them, although I didn't open the assembly to find out properly. I noticed the two outermost tabs were crimped over the backplate on these, with at least one other slightly bent to tighten things further.
It feels and sounds pretty good! It's slightly cracked on the bottom, but it's not visible. And the plate isn't too rusted either. Unfortunately, I had no idea that you weren't supposed to clean the case with isopropyl alcohol... so now there is a lot of streaking. gonna need to figure out how to fix that. All in all, not bad for a 70 dollar keyboard. 8-)

Wazrach

11 May 2019, 19:36

Lbibass wrote:
11 May 2019, 18:42
Wazrach wrote:
11 May 2019, 18:22
Lbibass wrote:
11 May 2019, 17:29



Boy, that sucks. I am going to have to take apart my IBM AT and replace the foam on that board too. I think a cat pissed in it. Smells like piss. And the foam is in bad shape.
It's always interesting to smell a keyboard after unboxing it. I must say, cat piss is a new one. How does yours feel and sound?

I didn't have any issues with either of my ATs (both of which I sold) when cleaning them. In fact both of them, especially the second one, were crisp as hell. The foam was serviceable in both of them, although I didn't open the assembly to find out properly. I noticed the two outermost tabs were crimped over the backplate on these, with at least one other slightly bent to tighten things further.
It feels and sounds pretty good! It's slightly cracked on the bottom, but it's not visible. And the plate isn't too rusted either. Unfortunately, I had no idea that you weren't supposed to clean the case with isopropyl alcohol... so now there is a lot of streaking. gonna need to figure out how to fix that. All in all, not bad for a 70 dollar keyboard. 8-)
Nice! Did you get it on Ebay? Funnily enough, the second AT showed streaking after cleaning it with isopropanol - the first did not. I suppose this is another example of the differences between keyboards. They also sounded very different. Second one was more thocky and had a higher-pitched ping. The first had very twangy keys.

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PlacaFromHell

11 May 2019, 23:23

Wazrach wrote:
11 May 2019, 09:30

I haven't opened the keyboard yet, so I'm not sure. I'm guessing it's okay for now. Why would you kill for a Blue Snowball? haha
They are wonderful microphones. I have to settle for a Trust that is not condenser.
Lbibass wrote:
11 May 2019, 17:29


Boy, that sucks. I am going to have to take apart my IBM AT and replace the foam on that board too. I think a cat pissed in it. Smells like piss. And the foam is in bad shape.
Don't worry, mine smelled like wet dog and it's working fine. The strangest one was my beamspring, with fishy smell and salt on the PCB. I wonder if at some point the past owners slapped the keyboard with a piece of tuna or something :lol:

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fohat
Elder Messenger

12 May 2019, 01:31

Have you looked at my guide for the ANSI mod?

With a hole punch and some clamps I have refurbed probably at least twenty-five Fs without any particular issues, all but about 2 or 3 needing new foam. I have generally used 1.5mm moderately firm closed-cell "art" foam and also a slightly thinner but also some softer open-cell neoprene that I got from wcass.

When the assembly does not go back together, are you making at least a dozen real full goes at it before giving up? Even today, it almost always requires multiple tries for me to get it right, and that means breaking it down and starting over.

Lbibass

12 May 2019, 05:16

PlacaFromHell wrote:
11 May 2019, 23:23
Wazrach wrote:
11 May 2019, 09:30

I haven't opened the keyboard yet, so I'm not sure. I'm guessing it's okay for now. Why would you kill for a Blue Snowball? haha
They are wonderful microphones. I have to settle for a Trust that is not condenser.
Lbibass wrote:
11 May 2019, 17:29


Boy, that sucks. I am going to have to take apart my IBM AT and replace the foam on that board too. I think a cat pissed in it. Smells like piss. And the foam is in bad shape.
Don't worry, mine smelled like wet dog and it's working fine. The strangest one was my beamspring, with fishy smell and salt on the PCB. I wonder if at some point the past owners slapped the keyboard with a piece of tuna or something :lol:
I took it apart and let it air out for about 24 hours. Much better now. Although, the foam is still really screwed up.

Wazrach

12 May 2019, 13:17

fohat wrote:
12 May 2019, 01:31
Have you looked at my guide for the ANSI mod?

With a hole punch and some clamps I have refurbed probably at least twenty-five Fs without any particular issues, all but about 2 or 3 needing new foam. I have generally used 1.5mm moderately firm closed-cell "art" foam and also a slightly thinner but also some softer open-cell neoprene that I got from wcass.

When the assembly does not go back together, are you making at least a dozen real full goes at it before giving up? Even today, it almost always requires multiple tries for me to get it right, and that means breaking it down and starting over.
I've seen your guide, yes. I've tried "art foam" that isn't exactly the same stuff as Michaels (I have some Michaels foam from JAC's custom AT he sold me ages ago to compare it with). I wasn't pleased with what it did to my XT, as the middle row was quiet compared to the bottom row. The spacebar was thockier, but not as crisp.

Here's how my F122 sounds after cleaning the keycaps. Notice how the middle row doesn't sound as nice as the rest, but I don't know if that's just the chassis or if I'm just imagining it. https://youtu.be/HJcRGI7KM98

I really really don't want to take this apart. I still don't have the right foam and I'm scared I'll just make it worse once the assembly has been cracked open, like always.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

12 May 2019, 16:31

Wazrach wrote:
12 May 2019, 13:17

the middle row doesn't sound as nice as the rest,
I can't speak directly to the issue of sound, since I try to attenuate the high-pitched overtones of the F, but for several years now, every time I open one of these up to clean it, I add 3 screws and nuts near the center line: one between CapsLock/Left Shift and left F6/F8, one just above 5/% and below upper F5, and one just right of Enter and diagonally above Left Arrow. I use something on the order of an M4x10 or Imperial equivalent 4-40x1/2, and screw them down quite tight (unlike a Model M "bolt mod" where they only need to be finger snug.

Naturally, verify the circuit board and don't drill through any traces!

To me, it makes a world of difference to pull the plates into tension at the belly of the curvature.

Wazrach

12 May 2019, 16:41

fohat wrote:
12 May 2019, 16:31
Wazrach wrote:
12 May 2019, 13:17

the middle row doesn't sound as nice as the rest,
I can't speak directly to the issue of sound, since I try to attenuate the high-pitched overtones of the F, but for several years now, every time I open one of these up to clean it, I add 3 screws and nuts near the center line: one between CapsLock/Left Shift and left F6/F8, one just above 5/% and below upper F5, and one just right of Enter and diagonally above Left Arrow. I use something on the order of an M4x10 or Imperial equivalent 4-40x1/2, and screw them down quite tight (unlike a Model M "bolt mod" where they only need to be finger snug.

Naturally, verify the circuit board and don't drill through any traces!

To me, it makes a world of difference to pull the plates into tension at the belly of the curvature.
Thanks for that info. I will probably just bite the bullet and find suitable foam somehow, then do a bolt mod. If the feel is just that much better, it may be worth a shot. Still want to know what your F122s sound like after art foam and bolt modifications.

would you say my suspicions are true from the sound in the video? or am i just being paranoid?

Wazrach

12 May 2019, 22:44

nope, the foam is screwed. opened the case finally and the foam just crumbles when I touch it. yay. £330 for this. never going to be able to get it feeling nice.

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PlacaFromHell

12 May 2019, 23:12

If you want to have a more solid feel in the center of the keyboard, why don't you add another piece of foam? Don't be upset, is not that hard. Be caferul with boltmods, my XT died when i removed the tabs to put bolts.

Wazrach

12 May 2019, 23:21

PlacaFromHell wrote:
12 May 2019, 23:12
If you want to have a more solid feel in the center of the keyboard, why don't you add another piece of foam? Don't be upset, is not that hard. Be caferul with boltmods, my XT died when i removed the tabs to put bolts.
I've got some firm 2mm neoprene lying around. Not the best material and will probably deaden the sound somewhat, but it's better than no foam at all. I will probably make a mat out of that and do a bolt mod.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

12 May 2019, 23:58

PlacaFromHell wrote:
12 May 2019, 23:12

when i removed the tabs to put bolts.
Please don't attribute removing tabs to me!

Once upon a time maybe 6-8 years ago, I briefly posted a guide showing tabs being cut off and numerous bolts used to replace them. I did that procedure a few times and it worked well enough, but there were potential pitfalls and I quickly deprecated it!

For many years I have strongly advocated *NOT* removing tabs!

Since then, I have *ALWAYS* left the tabs in place and added the screws and nuts to augment them, not replace them.

Wazrach

15 May 2019, 20:26

So after cutting a new mat, drilling 7 holes for bolts according to Fohat's guide and several hours of trying to get the plates together... no luck. Using fairly firm 2mm neoprene. The top barrels underneath the middle three tabs won't compress and I cannot get the tabs to lock. They're juuust biting the backplate. No luck. Knew this would happen, it just seems that anything I set out to do fails miserably.

Wazrach

15 May 2019, 20:41

lol just broke my bar clamp.

User avatar
PlacaFromHell

15 May 2019, 21:05

If you think like that, you will never do anything well. Be positive and stay calm. I broke my pliers peeling telephonic cable a week ago :D
Try to find someone to press the center of the plate when you gonna hammer the thing. You can do it!

User avatar
//gainsborough
ALPSの日常

15 May 2019, 21:13

Wazrach wrote:
15 May 2019, 20:26
So after cutting a new mat, drilling 7 holes for bolts according to Fohat's guide and several hours of trying to get the plates together... no luck. Using fairly firm 2mm neoprene. The top barrels underneath the middle three tabs won't compress and I cannot get the tabs to lock. They're juuust biting the backplate. No luck. Knew this would happen, it just seems that anything I set out to do fails miserably.
Make sure you're not doing what I did the first time I tried to reassemble a model F.....
//gainsborough wrote:
05 Jun 2017, 05:46

....

So anyway, this is where the real challenge started: re-assembling the keyboard.

I consider myself a reasonably well-minded man. I got my bachelor's in mathematics, and my master's in teaching. Every day on the job I am teaching my students to assess problems before just jumping right into trying to solve them. I tell them to examine what might be the best ways to start each problem logically.

Well apparently when I'm off the job, FUCK logic!

I had all the barrels in with all the springs (i forgot to mention, the springs had all rusted, and some have split in twain - luckily I had a model F XT lying around and harvested the springs from it - BTW, did you know the flippers for XT and ATs are different? The XT has a trapezoidal looking shape, while the AT is rectangular) - I was feeling pretty good about this. so I elevated the plate a bit so I could hit the end of it with a rubber mallet to slide the tabs into place. So far so good.

Except, for some unknown reason, I put a block of wood against the side of the back-plate I wasn't hitting....so I was just hitting this backplate with a hammer over and over and trying to figure out why it wasn't moving at all. I just kept swinging the hammer harder and harder and harder, and eventually bent the end I was hitting....

I did that for like an hour before realizing that I'm a fucking moron....

after some time of re-evaluating my critical thinking skills and overall mental well-being, I went back at it with a more normal strategy and got them locked in place....
Good times....

Wazrach

15 May 2019, 21:25

//gainsborough wrote:
15 May 2019, 21:13
Wazrach wrote:
15 May 2019, 20:26
So after cutting a new mat, drilling 7 holes for bolts according to Fohat's guide and several hours of trying to get the plates together... no luck. Using fairly firm 2mm neoprene. The top barrels underneath the middle three tabs won't compress and I cannot get the tabs to lock. They're juuust biting the backplate. No luck. Knew this would happen, it just seems that anything I set out to do fails miserably.
Make sure you're not doing what I did the first time I tried to reassemble a model F.....
//gainsborough wrote:
05 Jun 2017, 05:46

....

So anyway, this is where the real challenge started: re-assembling the keyboard.

I consider myself a reasonably well-minded man. I got my bachelor's in mathematics, and my master's in teaching. Every day on the job I am teaching my students to assess problems before just jumping right into trying to solve them. I tell them to examine what might be the best ways to start each problem logically.

Well apparently when I'm off the job, FUCK logic!

I had all the barrels in with all the springs (i forgot to mention, the springs had all rusted, and some have split in twain - luckily I had a model F XT lying around and harvested the springs from it - BTW, did you know the flippers for XT and ATs are different? The XT has a trapezoidal looking shape, while the AT is rectangular) - I was feeling pretty good about this. so I elevated the plate a bit so I could hit the end of it with a rubber mallet to slide the tabs into place. So far so good.

Except, for some unknown reason, I put a block of wood against the side of the back-plate I wasn't hitting....so I was just hitting this backplate with a hammer over and over and trying to figure out why it wasn't moving at all. I just kept swinging the hammer harder and harder and harder, and eventually bent the end I was hitting....

I did that for like an hour before realizing that I'm a fucking moron....

after some time of re-evaluating my critical thinking skills and overall mental well-being, I went back at it with a more normal strategy and got them locked in place....
Good times....
Nope.. it just will not budge at all. Absolute nightmare. I bet when it's all done there's be a flipper out if place.

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