SKCC double action [SKCCKB]
- zrrion
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: F122
- Main mouse: Microsoft IntelliMouse
- Favorite switch: ALPS SKCC Cream
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
I pulled this out of a Cannon AP350X and I do not see them on the wiki. I can say, without any hyperbole, that these are my new favorite switch.
First off, here is what I know or suspect about the switch:
1) These are in fact alps switches. They have an alps logo on the bottom and the PCB is also clearly branded ALPS.
2) These switches are double actuation switches. They have a second contact assembly embedded in the bottom of the switch that is actuated by a peg in the slider pressing down when firmly bottoming out. This peg pokes through the spring and makes it very easy to keep the spring in place when taking the switch apart.
3) They feel like a heavier SKCC switch. I do not have the tools to compare them with SKCC cream, but considering they are heavier than the greens used for the rest of the board, I suspect they may be similar in weighting.
and here I go with wild speculation
4) They are likely newer than SKCC but older than SKCM. I say this for a few reasons. The slider inside the switch is symmetrical and shaped more similarly to SKCM than SKCC. The other big thing that makes them feel newer than SKCC is that the top housing is symmetrical in a similar way to SKCM brown. It would not surprise me if ALPS initially tried to put two vertical switchplates in this switch but determined that there was no way to get a contact leaf on a vertical switchplate to actuate reliably on a hard bottom out and they ended up using a horizontal contact assembly molded into the bottom of the switch instead. The horizontal switchplate actually clicks when it is actuated so it is reasonable to assume that ALPS wanted the second actuation to be noticeable. It is likely that in the process of messing around with contact leaf shapes in an attempt to make the second actuation noticeable they likely happened on a leaf shape similar to brown alps and when making SKCM switches they included a second dummy assembly as a way to increase tactility and later a simplified leaf with all designs after brown alps. If all this is true it would mean that SKCL green and SKCM brown are for sure the oldest switches of that line.
5) The stabilized caps that use this switch (minus the space bar) use wire stabilizers that are almost identical to those used with SKCM switches, even though the caps support a rod-stye stabilizer in the same way SKCC does.
6) I don't think the switches I have are the standard switch type of the family they belong to. The blue marking on the top of the slider reminds me an awful lot of striped amber, and since these are pretty heavy, there likely exists an unmarked variety that is lighter.
7) These aren't different enough from SKCC for a single actuation switch to make sense, they are to different from SKCM to fit in with those switches either, and a few keyboards that use double actuation switches along side SKCC seem to use SKFF. SKFF had to have ceased production by the time these were brought out, but there isn't a lot of demand for this type of switch for it to be made without a specific client asking for it. I suspect that these were designed and made by ALPS for a specific client and weren't produced much outside of what that client needed. ALPS likely used this as an opportunity to get a client to basically pay for RND on their next proper switch design and the things ALPS learned when designing this switch likely lead directly to what ALPS did with the SKCL/SKCM line, including the switch to wire stabilizers on all keys.
If anyone has any information on these at all, a part number or anything they were used in besides the cannon typewriter would be huge. If you have a supplier that can get me like a thousand or so of these for sure hit me up.
First off, here is what I know or suspect about the switch:
1) These are in fact alps switches. They have an alps logo on the bottom and the PCB is also clearly branded ALPS.
2) These switches are double actuation switches. They have a second contact assembly embedded in the bottom of the switch that is actuated by a peg in the slider pressing down when firmly bottoming out. This peg pokes through the spring and makes it very easy to keep the spring in place when taking the switch apart.
3) They feel like a heavier SKCC switch. I do not have the tools to compare them with SKCC cream, but considering they are heavier than the greens used for the rest of the board, I suspect they may be similar in weighting.
and here I go with wild speculation
4) They are likely newer than SKCC but older than SKCM. I say this for a few reasons. The slider inside the switch is symmetrical and shaped more similarly to SKCM than SKCC. The other big thing that makes them feel newer than SKCC is that the top housing is symmetrical in a similar way to SKCM brown. It would not surprise me if ALPS initially tried to put two vertical switchplates in this switch but determined that there was no way to get a contact leaf on a vertical switchplate to actuate reliably on a hard bottom out and they ended up using a horizontal contact assembly molded into the bottom of the switch instead. The horizontal switchplate actually clicks when it is actuated so it is reasonable to assume that ALPS wanted the second actuation to be noticeable. It is likely that in the process of messing around with contact leaf shapes in an attempt to make the second actuation noticeable they likely happened on a leaf shape similar to brown alps and when making SKCM switches they included a second dummy assembly as a way to increase tactility and later a simplified leaf with all designs after brown alps. If all this is true it would mean that SKCL green and SKCM brown are for sure the oldest switches of that line.
5) The stabilized caps that use this switch (minus the space bar) use wire stabilizers that are almost identical to those used with SKCM switches, even though the caps support a rod-stye stabilizer in the same way SKCC does.
6) I don't think the switches I have are the standard switch type of the family they belong to. The blue marking on the top of the slider reminds me an awful lot of striped amber, and since these are pretty heavy, there likely exists an unmarked variety that is lighter.
7) These aren't different enough from SKCC for a single actuation switch to make sense, they are to different from SKCM to fit in with those switches either, and a few keyboards that use double actuation switches along side SKCC seem to use SKFF. SKFF had to have ceased production by the time these were brought out, but there isn't a lot of demand for this type of switch for it to be made without a specific client asking for it. I suspect that these were designed and made by ALPS for a specific client and weren't produced much outside of what that client needed. ALPS likely used this as an opportunity to get a client to basically pay for RND on their next proper switch design and the things ALPS learned when designing this switch likely lead directly to what ALPS did with the SKCL/SKCM line, including the switch to wire stabilizers on all keys.
If anyone has any information on these at all, a part number or anything they were used in besides the cannon typewriter would be huge. If you have a supplier that can get me like a thousand or so of these for sure hit me up.
Last edited by zrrion on 15 Jan 2022, 09:24, edited 1 time in total.
- zrrion
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: F122
- Main mouse: Microsoft IntelliMouse
- Favorite switch: ALPS SKCC Cream
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
And this post is for pictures:
The switch for the enter key, notice the wire stabilizer even though the [plate has a cutout that would work for a rod stabilizer
The backspace cap with modern style stabilizers
more wire stabilizer
switch side
switch side
switch bottom
The switch as disassembled as I am willing to take it. I don't have spares to sacrifice for a more complete tear-down
The bottom contact plate, or what is visible of it with out taking it apart in ways that I do not think are reversible
top housing
Feel free to use any of this on the wiki if someone decides to make a page for the switch. IDK what to even call them as a temp. name so I am hesitant to make a page for them.
EDIT: And here's an SKCC green LED switch to close with.
The switch for the enter key, notice the wire stabilizer even though the [plate has a cutout that would work for a rod stabilizer
The backspace cap with modern style stabilizers
more wire stabilizer
switch side
switch side
switch bottom
The switch as disassembled as I am willing to take it. I don't have spares to sacrifice for a more complete tear-down
The bottom contact plate, or what is visible of it with out taking it apart in ways that I do not think are reversible
top housing
Feel free to use any of this on the wiki if someone decides to make a page for the switch. IDK what to even call them as a temp. name so I am hesitant to make a page for them.
EDIT: And here's an SKCC green LED switch to close with.
Last edited by zrrion on 04 Mar 2021, 03:27, edited 2 times in total.
- ZedTheMan
- Location: Central US
- Main keyboard: IModel F77/IBM 3101/Omnikey 102/96Kee
- Main mouse: Logitech G430/Logitech M570/Kensington Expert
- Favorite switch: Beamsprings. Alps SKCM Blue, Capacitive Buckling S
- DT Pro Member: 0219
Oh, I had found these just a few weeks ago, was talking about them on the discord. I personally call them Coral Blue #2 Semi-Gloss Alps Switch, due to the blue paint matching very closely to that color from the SpongeBob skit.
Great pictures, you are braver than I to have disassembled one!
Found mine in an AP350X as well. I hope some more info comes up on these oddities.
Great pictures, you are braver than I to have disassembled one!
Found mine in an AP350X as well. I hope some more info comes up on these oddities.
-
- Location: Ireland
- Main keyboard: F122
- Main mouse: Various trackballs
- Favorite switch: Model F buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: -
This switch is already documented, actually. It's SKFF Double Action. HaaTa covered a later variant in this thread.
- Chyros
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
- Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
I don't think that's correct. This switch uses a C contact plate; SKFF's is completely different.HC514 wrote: ↑20 Sep 2019, 11:22This switch is already documented, actually. It's SKFF Double Action. HaaTa covered a later variant in this thread.
-
- Location: Ireland
- Main keyboard: F122
- Main mouse: Various trackballs
- Favorite switch: Model F buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: -
Yeah. Given the "special order" look of this thing then, maybe it was a temporary solution from before or after the availability of the SKFF equivalent., or maybe Canon requested a less clicky double action switch.
Edit: Regarding the model code, do note that SKCC is a family that comprises at least two distinct designs (momentary and latching). This is still similar enough to SKCC that it could be a kind of "SKCC Double Action" with a code like SKCCxx.
Edit: Regarding the model code, do note that SKCC is a family that comprises at least two distinct designs (momentary and latching). This is still similar enough to SKCC that it could be a kind of "SKCC Double Action" with a code like SKCCxx.
- SneakyRobb
- THINK
- Location: Canada
- Main keyboard: KB-5161A, F122, Dc2014, Typeheaven, Beamspring FXT
- Main mouse: MX518 Legendary
- DT Pro Member: 0242
Hi,
This reminds me of this patent I came across previously. Specifically the lower contact part. Where there are 4 legs in addition to the switchplate legs.
Not sure if this is helpful.
This reminds me of this patent I came across previously. Specifically the lower contact part. Where there are 4 legs in addition to the switchplate legs.
Not sure if this is helpful.
- zrrion
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: F122
- Main mouse: Microsoft IntelliMouse
- Favorite switch: ALPS SKCC Cream
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
That looks like it is the patent for this switch, like its a dead ringer. I'm not exactly able to read it though, which is a shame.
- SneakyRobb
- THINK
- Location: Canada
- Main keyboard: KB-5161A, F122, Dc2014, Typeheaven, Beamspring FXT
- Main mouse: MX518 Legendary
- DT Pro Member: 0242
The housing is not exactly the same, and it lacks the metal part on the top... but it does have that bottom part.
Not sure how it works though.
I also found this german version. Maybe someone can run it through a translator
Not sure how it works though.
I also found this german version. Maybe someone can run it through a translator
- SneakyRobb
- THINK
- Location: Canada
- Main keyboard: KB-5161A, F122, Dc2014, Typeheaven, Beamspring FXT
- Main mouse: MX518 Legendary
- DT Pro Member: 0242
Hi,
I think this should be the text.....
I think this should be the text.....
Spoiler:
- zrrion
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: F122
- Main mouse: Microsoft IntelliMouse
- Favorite switch: ALPS SKCC Cream
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
It looks like it is 60 for the first and 500(!) for the second. Idk if that second number is accurate, but it doesn't list tolerances so who knows. The 60gbsounds right though.
- SneakyRobb
- THINK
- Location: Canada
- Main keyboard: KB-5161A, F122, Dc2014, Typeheaven, Beamspring FXT
- Main mouse: MX518 Legendary
- DT Pro Member: 0242
Hi,
The second actuation force could very well be correct. (edit)
http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/tr-808/TR ... e-card.jpg
if you see the switch type in the second column just about half way down 10904 "KHF" switches
The second actuation force can get quite high
The second actuation force could very well be correct. (edit)
http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/tr-808/TR ... e-card.jpg
if you see the switch type in the second column just about half way down 10904 "KHF" switches
The second actuation force can get quite high
- SneakyRobb
- THINK
- Location: Canada
- Main keyboard: KB-5161A, F122, Dc2014, Typeheaven, Beamspring FXT
- Main mouse: MX518 Legendary
- DT Pro Member: 0242
Hi, are you able to take the bottom part apart?
- zrrion
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: F122
- Main mouse: Microsoft IntelliMouse
- Favorite switch: ALPS SKCC Cream
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
probably, but it looks like it is held together with plastic rivets and if I took it apart it would likely destroy the switch. If I aver get ahold of some damaged ones or if I find a large supply or something I will take apart the bottom contact and see what is inside of it.
- SneakyRobb
- THINK
- Location: Canada
- Main keyboard: KB-5161A, F122, Dc2014, Typeheaven, Beamspring FXT
- Main mouse: MX518 Legendary
- DT Pro Member: 0242
Hi
Ah yes makes sense you mentioned. Obviously you should keep it together then.
I hope to find one of these switches then to disassemble. That lower contact mechanism is neat.
There are quite a few patents from alps in the 70s and 80s time frame where they have large variation in sensing method, springs etc before they really close in on the SKCM format.
The earliest patent ive seen for the alps contact foil mechanism "sandwhich" is 1976 if I recall correctly.
I think we have many more years of unusual and strange alps switches turning up.
Ah yes makes sense you mentioned. Obviously you should keep it together then.
I hope to find one of these switches then to disassemble. That lower contact mechanism is neat.
There are quite a few patents from alps in the 70s and 80s time frame where they have large variation in sensing method, springs etc before they really close in on the SKCM format.
The earliest patent ive seen for the alps contact foil mechanism "sandwhich" is 1976 if I recall correctly.
I think we have many more years of unusual and strange alps switches turning up.
- zrrion
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: F122
- Main mouse: Microsoft IntelliMouse
- Favorite switch: ALPS SKCC Cream
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Bit of a bump, but a while back I got ahold of the older version of this typewriter that used SKFF and the similarities between this and the double action SKFF are interesting. The slider shape and mount (at least what is outside of the switch) are very similar and the inside of SKFF does house 2 verticval contact assemblies. ALPS likely tried that with this switch but decided on the embedded blister switch on the bottom for unknown reasons. At this point I feel that this switch was made for Cannon specifically so that they could continue using the same designs that relied on double actuation switches in their newer typewriters, and the same may also be true for the double action switches found in other Cannon typewriters. Apple used some SKFF double action alongside tall SKCC so I feel like if these switches were a normal thing for ALPS to produce we would have seen them used by Apple. I'm also pretty sure the reason APPLE uses tall SKCC is so that they match in height with SKFF, there would be no reason for tall SKCC to exist if there was a double action switch from the start of the SKCC line's production, further supporting the idea that Cannon requested these specifically.
I still don't have any leads on other sources for these switches or any concrete info at all really. I'm hesitant to call them SKCC double action as they don't appear to have been developed at the same time as standard SKCC but unless I somehow get some concrete information on them that says otherwise I guess that is as good a designation as any.
EDIT: I remembered this while looking at this thread and remembered we actually know what the 2 letter code for double action switches is so I've edited the OP's title to reflect that knowledge. These are SKCC series double action switches, which makes them SKCCKB.
I still don't have any leads on other sources for these switches or any concrete info at all really. I'm hesitant to call them SKCC double action as they don't appear to have been developed at the same time as standard SKCC but unless I somehow get some concrete information on them that says otherwise I guess that is as good a designation as any.
EDIT: I remembered this while looking at this thread and remembered we actually know what the 2 letter code for double action switches is so I've edited the OP's title to reflect that knowledge. These are SKCC series double action switches, which makes them SKCCKB.