IBM Model F, M, and HHKB

daphnis

13 Nov 2019, 22:49

Would anyone rank these in the order

+ F
+ HH
+ M?

I tried a model M but was disappointed and preferred HH; and now I wonder whether I should try F. I found the M too stiff, even though I really wanted to like it.

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scottc

14 Nov 2019, 00:38

HHKB > F > M.

Model M is too stiff. Model F are lighter but come in awkward layouts (unless you're lucky enough to have a Kishsaver or live in the year 2042 when Ellipse has finally delivered).

daphnis

14 Nov 2019, 03:53

So would you say F with good layout is better than HH?

Rezene

14 Nov 2019, 04:08

daphnis wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 03:53
So would you say F with good layout is better than HH?
imo yea if sound isnt an issue. The switches are so massively different though its hard to compare

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yuchipashe

14 Nov 2019, 04:38

scottc wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 00:38
HHKB > F > M.

Model M is too stiff. Model F are lighter but come in awkward layouts (unless you're lucky enough to have a Kishsaver or live in the year 2042 when Ellipse has finally delivered).
I second this fully. I would go with F for feel and sound over HHKB, but for the layout and quietness it would be with the HHKB.
Though when Ellipse's kishy arrives then I would go with that over HHKB topres any day.

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inmbolmie

14 Nov 2019, 09:08

I won't consider F122 or F Unsaver to have awkward layouts...

Shihatsu

14 Nov 2019, 09:20

I would'nt consider the cheap HHKB with something like the F. With the M before a full restoration - okay. To be fair, one must then compare a fully moxdded HHKB with the M, but even then it is jast Dvid against Goliath, and Goliath wins this with ease. Better Keys, better Build, and beside the rivets it will last for ages. Easy win for the M. And IF we take a kishsaver or Ellipse into acount it just gets hillarious.

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yuchipashe

14 Nov 2019, 09:30

Shihatsu wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 09:20
I would'nt consider the cheap HHKB with something like the F. With the M before a full restoration - okay. To be fair, one must then compare a fully moxdded HHKB with the M, but even then it is jast Dvid against Goliath, and Goliath wins this with ease. Better Keys, better Build, and beside the rivets it will last for ages. Easy win for the M. And IF we take a kishsaver or Ellipse into acount it just gets hillarious.
HHKB is comparable in the case of size factor and feel (and portability), but everything else it loses completely no doubt. But you could also say that a beam spring wins with build, keys, feel, and sound, but you still have to take account the usability.

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Menuhin

14 Nov 2019, 11:09

[disclaimer: Emacs user]
Personal taste only:

Layout -- HHKB > M > F & Beamspring

Key feel -- HHKB > Beamspring > F > M

As a weapon -- Beamspring > M => F >>> HHKB

Portability -- HHKB >>> all others

daphnis

14 Nov 2019, 11:34

Menuhin wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 11:09
[disclaimer: Emacs user]
Personal taste only:

Layout -- HHKB > M > F & Beamspring

Key feel -- HHKB > Beamspring > F > M

As a weapon -- Beamspring > M => F >>> HHKB

Portability -- HHKB >>> all others
Does this have anything to do with EMACS?

daphnis

14 Nov 2019, 11:37

Shihatsu wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 09:20
I would'nt consider the cheap HHKB with something like the F. With the M before a full restoration - okay. To be fair, one must then compare a fully moxdded HHKB with the M, but even then it is jast Dvid against Goliath, and Goliath wins this with ease. Better Keys, better Build, and beside the rivets it will last for ages. Easy win for the M. And IF we take a kishsaver or Ellipse into acount it just gets hillarious.
The M I tried was restored by clicky keyboards; not sure if that could have been done better. (It did have two malfunctioning keys.) Have you tried those from Unicomp?

Shihatsu

14 Nov 2019, 12:22

yuchipashe wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 09:30
HHKB is comparable in the case of size factor and feel (and portability), but everything else it loses completely no doubt. But you could also say that a beam spring wins with build, keys, feel, and sound, but you still have to take account the usability.
Ya, your right, but if I compare, I do a full compare. Usability of a M is given withoud doubt (size is a problem for the 60 lovers, but I need fullsioze for work), Usability of F is also given if you take a kish or a battleship. USability of a beamer is a total different beast, so - the height of the units alone make them questionable (but NOTHING in the world beats the sound of a beamspring with active solenoid in full flight).
daphnis wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 11:37
The M I tried was restored by clicky keyboards; not sure if that could have been done better. (It did have two malfunctioning keys.) Have you tried those from Unicomp?
Well, if keys are not working it definately could have done better... Unicomp Model Ms are of questionable quality compared with IBM Model M, especially if you take an old IBM Model M. With IBM boards the thing is: the younger the worse, the older the better.

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Menuhin

14 Nov 2019, 13:09

daphnis wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 11:34
Menuhin wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 11:09
[disclaimer: Emacs user]
Personal taste only:

Layout -- HHKB > M > F & Beamspring

Key feel -- HHKB > Beamspring > F > M

As a weapon -- Beamspring > M => F >>> HHKB

Portability -- HHKB >>> all others
Does this have anything to do with EMACS?
Not if one uses Emacs with the Evil mode (Vim keybinding)
Not if one tries to use Emacs not having the L_Ctrl at CapsLock with left pinky, but moves their whole hands for the bottom corner keys
Not if one does not use Emacs

With Emacs, most needs of one's life has been already met.

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Khers

14 Nov 2019, 13:35

scottc wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 00:38
HHKB > F > M.

Model M is too stiff. Model F are lighter but come in awkward layouts (unless you're lucky enough to have a Kishsaver or live in the year 2042 when Ellipse has finally delivered).
+1

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yuchipashe

15 Nov 2019, 04:46

Shihatsu wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 12:22
daphnis wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 11:37
The M I tried was restored by clicky keyboards; not sure if that could have been done better. (It did have two malfunctioning keys.) Have you tried those from Unicomp?
Well, if keys are not working it definately could have done better... Unicomp Model Ms are of questionable quality compared with IBM Model M, especially if you take an old IBM Model M. With IBM boards the thing is: the younger the worse, the older the better.
I tried the Model M from Gen1, 2, 3, and Unicomp one, and as much as how cool that Unicomp is still building them with original molding, they feel pretty underwhelming and IMO they feel like they're built in a cheap factory in China that also builds cheap rubber dome keyboards. Might be the weight or the material used, who knows.
Last edited by yuchipashe on 15 Nov 2019, 05:59, edited 1 time in total.

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SneakyRobb
THINK

15 Nov 2019, 05:27

Model F and Model M are switch types that exist in a variety of keyboards of various layouts.

HHKB is synonymous with a layout just as much with switches tbh. So the comparison is a bit odd. Regardless the Model F is Peak human and will never be surpassed.

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adhoc

15 Nov 2019, 20:11

This site makes me feel like I’m the only one that loves model M and F (F over M), but only in short bursts. I can not imagine using these boards full time.

HHKB is a modern, usable, every day non stop board. To me at least.

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Blaise170
ALPS キーボード

15 Nov 2019, 21:08

adhoc wrote:
15 Nov 2019, 20:11
This site makes me feel like I’m the only one that loves model M and F (F over M), but only in short bursts. I can not imagine using these boards full time.

HHKB is a modern, usable, every day non stop board. To me at least.
You aren't the only one, I love them too but I can't use them full time. Frankly I love clicky switches too, but I can't hardly use them anymore. I'm getting too old. :lol:

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Muirium
µ

16 Nov 2019, 11:04

Too old for Model F? But aren’t the sharp satisfying clicks a soothing mask to hide the equally clicky tendons in your billion keystroke fingers?
adhoc wrote:
15 Nov 2019, 20:11
HHKB is a modern, usable, every day non stop board. To me at least.
This! That’s where I love my HHKB: in the long haul, wherever and whenever it may be.

But I, too, will use a Model F all day if the desire strikes me. Just has to be at home, though, without protest at the racket or the weight to haul around town with me!

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vometia
irritant

16 Nov 2019, 14:31

daphnis wrote:
14 Nov 2019, 11:34
Does this have anything to do with EMACS?
ew. I'm always going to think of Emacs as escape-meta-alt-control-shift.

I guess I'll be the weirdo who prefers the Model M. I like the F but maybe it's just the insane layout (I mean excepting those who are fortunate enough to have the Big Ass Return version) and still think there's not that much difference in keyfeel. Maybe I've just been lucky (or unlucky) but I like my Ms just fine. SSKs are okay in terms of size... well, ish: I mean they're nearly as big as an XT.

I have to admit I've never used an HHKB nor any sort of Topre but I know I'd never get used to the layout which is a dealbreaker for me, however good it might be in every other regard.

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Muirium
µ

16 Nov 2019, 19:42

Oh come on, this is the Topre for you!

Image

They come in ISO. No excuses! (Besides the cost, which is a fair point. And Keyboardco being the local dealer, which I know is a dealbreaker for you. Aaaand something or other about the colour scheme?)

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vometia
irritant

16 Nov 2019, 20:13

Mini-legends hiding in the corners of the keys, looking at me all shifty-eyed. Yes I'm tempted. But I need to get used to my Race's layout first so that anything else feels alien to me and I can complain about it being weird.

Wazrach

16 Nov 2019, 20:59

Muirium wrote:
16 Nov 2019, 19:42
Oh come on, this is the Topre for you!

Image

They come in ISO. No excuses! (Besides the cost, which is a fair point. And Keyboardco being the local dealer, which I know is a dealbreaker for you. Aaaand something or other about the colour scheme?)
I think that colour scheme is a bit boring. I really like the look of the R2, with its folded edge.

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adhoc

17 Nov 2019, 09:26

vometia wrote:
16 Nov 2019, 20:13
Mini-legends hiding in the corners of the keys, looking at me all shifty-eyed. Yes I'm tempted. But I need to get used to my Race's layout first so that anything else feels alien to me and I can complain about it being weird.
Why would you look at the legends anyway?

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vometia
irritant

17 Nov 2019, 09:49

adhoc wrote:
17 Nov 2019, 09:26
Why would you look at the legends anyway?
Because they're there. And they help me not press the wrong buttons.

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Muirium
µ

17 Nov 2019, 10:37

Some of us do it with the lights on.

Actually, even I like legends, despite knowing my way around a keyboard well enough I really don’t need them. It’s a psychological thing. Especially when first returning to the keyboard, sometimes I’ll catch myself double thinking about where the “ key is, or even P or B. Now in truth I know damn well where they are, and will find them every time I rest my fingers on home row, but there’s this wee troll determined to insert himself into the equation somewhere. He’s not powerful enough to throw me off (though surely was when I was new to typing) but he still has me glance at the keys every now and then, when I’m not already warmed up. Blanks make him smile, and Sindarin gives him as much glee as me! Albeit for quite opposite reasons.

Image

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adhoc

18 Nov 2019, 20:30

After a lot of time browsing for caps I realized I hate legends, which kind of surprised me because I generally like digital fonts and one of my hobbies is calligraphy. Interestingly enough, my dislike of legends carried over also to another interest of mine, mechanical watches. Over night I realized my collection contains just one watch with any “legends” (numerical indices) - and it’s my least worn one.

Fkazim

19 Nov 2019, 10:38

I can't really talk much for the HHKB but I can say that some of the IBM Model F's are perfectly usable with some tinkering. The Model F AT is usable once you add some extra key barrels to either allow for an ANSI enter or an ISO both can be done. The other thing that can be converted if need be is the small left shift.

All you have to do is remove the spring on the backslash key then a full size shift will fit. After that is done all you would have to do is remap back slash to where it is on the ANSI layout providing you have the 2u backslash key from an IBM Model M which is easily obtainable on eBay. Now if you dare try to find the room to fit an IBM Model F 122 then perfectly usable layout and then some with extra macros as desired. You could even change out the ISO enter with the ANSI enter.

The Model F's are built like a tanks, easily disassembled, easy to maintain, keys easily remapped using Soarer's converter. Or other types of converters such as Xwhatsit, TMK, QMK etc...

This all just my opinion from experience and using a Model F as my daily driver.

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Muirium
µ

19 Nov 2019, 11:04

Vometia is always banging on about how she loathes ANSI. (Which is a disability, if you ask me, as all the best boards are ANSI!) While the AT could just as well be run in ISO format, the AT remains a moderately challenging board to acquire. Oh, and as loud as stray Gatling fire.

I do like my AT, too. It’s on my desk right now. But they’re not a universal tip by any stretch.

Fkazim

19 Nov 2019, 11:37

You are right the AT is fairly hard to find one. But is well worth the look. I am running mine in ISO UK layout as i am from the UK, I have also programmed some media keys.

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