Alps Lubricant FOUND!

Jan Pospisil

29 Apr 2021, 15:41

Has anyone tried the OKS+NG combo on later non-factory-lubed Alps?

andresteare

29 Apr 2021, 17:05

Jan Pospisil wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 15:41
Has anyone tried the OKS+NG combo on later non-factory-lubed Alps?
I haven't but I don't think is worth trying, later Alps use a different plastic that is already super duper smooth by itself. You can use it without any lube and it feels very smooth.
You can try with common lubes like krytox and trybosis though given the open nature of the switches, lubing them would require maintenance periodically. If I were you I would try some dry teflon lube which is quite good and call it a day, and dry luber doesn't attract dust so I doesn't require maintenance, later Alps are super easy to restore, you just need to clean the slider, the uper housing and BAM, good as new

Jan Pospisil

29 Apr 2021, 17:58

I have some bamboo white alps NOS and while the switch goes down ok, the tactility itself is kinda grainy. I was wondering if lube could improve that.

inozenz

29 Apr 2021, 18:12

NeK wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 15:34
inozenz wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 13:47
I live in Germany and went the extra mile to buy oks477 for 16€ 80ml and nygel767 31€ 50ml.

I plan on doing a test series, where I increase the amount of oks from 10%-90%, going in 10% steps to find the perfect amount for myself. If I reach a setisfying result, I'll repeat the test with 1% steps.

I got a chicony portable keyboard with white Alps switches from 1987. That board was so dirty, if you pressed a key it would stay down and not come back up. I cleaned it and had to remove the lube from the stem aswell, but the cleaning job really helped 10000 times. The sound is nice and you can press the keys fine but the binding is present. The typing experience is not satisfying enough to leave it that way.

The only issue is, that I have no spare time currently for any projects. This will probably happen around September/October.

I plan on documenting the process and results, this way everyone can see, if I do a good or bad job in lubing and hear the difference in viscosity.

I'll share my results once I got it done. Until then I keep on reading every information you guys hand out.
That's great, the more people test this mix its better for all. Just keep in mind that as far as I know all white skcm alps, have stems with the newer material which has lubricating properties by itself. For my white pine alps, OKS 477 alone transformed them to have very smooth and excellent feeling. So the 767A was not necessary for them. However I do still feel that a small part of 767A would make then perfectly smooth. So I would recommend to start with oks alone and after try with a little bit of 767A until you find the best mix. Maybe oks alone would be enough in this case.
Thanks for the advice, but these white switches definitely had dry lube on them. I also have a focus 2002 with blue Alps that need my attention. And some black Alps boards. Since I have a lot of white Alps boards I'll test the lube on them first. And with good results I can try to apply it on other boards that need it. I can also try to sand some white stems and lube them for the sake of science. I was also thinking about heat treating some stems to see if I can make them even smoother.

andresteare

29 Apr 2021, 18:13

Jan Pospisil wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 17:58
I have some bamboo white alps NOS and while the switch goes down ok, the tactility itself is kinda grainy. I was wondering if lube could improve that.
I suspect that's more of a tactile leaf issue, remove the leaf and you will have an awesome linear

Jan Pospisil

29 Apr 2021, 18:16

andresteare wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 18:13
Jan Pospisil wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 17:58
I have some bamboo white alps NOS and while the switch goes down ok, the tactility itself is kinda grainy. I was wondering if lube could improve that.
I suspect that's more of a tactile leaf issue, remove the leaf and you will have an awesome linear
I've done that with black alps in another board, I want the white board clicky.

kelvinhall05

29 Apr 2021, 18:24

Jan Pospisil wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 17:58
I have some bamboo white alps NOS and while the switch goes down ok, the tactility itself is kinda grainy. I was wondering if lube could improve that.
fwiw my bamboo white Alps don't have grainy tactility. Perhaps something is wrong with your switches (yes, yes, I know they're NOS, but still).

andresteare

29 Apr 2021, 19:22

For those looking for alternatives, here's a little cheat sheet that might be helpful:
general_engineering_chart__nye_lubricants_.pdf
(1.93 MiB) Downloaded 11 times
Also these:
mix.png
mix.png (831.56 KiB) Viewed 666 times
Captura de pantalla 2021-04-29 134339.png
Captura de pantalla 2021-04-29 134339.png (169.55 KiB) Viewed 666 times

dc76

29 Apr 2021, 21:22

NeK wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 11:50
dc76 wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 03:01
TAI Lubricants is the official US Small Volume Distributor for Nye Lubricants.
Just pointing this as a form of warning: be careful, 774VH is substantially heavy whereas 774VL is way too light.

NyoGel 774VH: 16830 cSt *0.86 = 14473,8 cP @ 40c
NyoGel 774 = 5070 cSt *0.86 = 4360,2 cP @ 40c
NyoGel 774VL = 903 cSt *0.86 = 776,58 cP @ 40c

For comparison, the notoriously heavy 767A has this viscosity:
NyoGel 767A: 28185 cSt *0.87 = 24520,95 cP @ 40c

The reason I mix the 767A with OKS 477, is to make the mixed lube viscosity lighter.

The viscosity of OKS 477 is: 1600 cSt *0.87 = 1392 cP @40c

I cannot calculate the exact viscosity rating that the mix has. However it cannot possibly be lower than the 1392 cP of OKS 477. Probably it would be somewhere between that and the 24520 cP of NG 767A. I guess, with a mix of 80 767A - 20 477. Using simple logic, it should be somewhere in the ballpark of 60% - 90% of the viscosity of 767A. But I may be wrong and it could be way less than that. I don't know how mixing the lubes changes the mixed viscosity. So anyone wishing to try and buy one of the 774 series should have this in mind.

This is only my guess, but anything below the viscosity of OKS 477 is out of the question without any second though. So I think that at least the NG 774 would be needed. However, it too may prove to be too light, so I can't know for sure which one to try first. My *guess* is that the 774 or the 774H would be the sweetspot lube.

UPDATE:

now that I think about it, the NG 774VH has about half (55%) of the viscosity of 767A. Maybe *that* one would be the best? Also there is another option the 774H which is in between the 774VH and 774. Maybe that would be the one. :?: :?:

In any case, I think it is clear by now, that the Nye company offers so many options and they are so specialized in lubes, that it probably has a product that can easily replace the OG lube.


Cool, thanks for the information.
I took a look at those viscosities, saw how different they were and didn't even think of mixing it with something.

I received a reply back from the TAI Lubricants rep about the 774, here's what I got in reply:
Spoiler:
Thank you for your interest in Nye's Nyogel 774. We only carry this in a 500 gram jar. These are currently on back order with Nye until June 4th. Price per 500 gram jar is $169.95.

There is no minimum order. We accept Visa/MasterCard/American Express/Discover.

If you have any other questions before ordering, please feel free to contact me. I look forward to doing business.

Enjoy the day. Be safe.

Ouch, 500 grams is a lot of lubricant to be unsure about purchasing and get stuck with, lol.
I'm going to keep looking, hopefully I can find a smaller amount before TAI's 774 comes off backorder. Otherwise, I'll probably bite the bullet and just grab the 500g jar.

I'll take a look at getting some 774H as well.

inozenz

29 Apr 2021, 21:56

dc76 wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 21:22
NeK wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 11:50
dc76 wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 03:01
TAI Lubricants is the official US Small Volume Distributor for Nye Lubricants.
Just pointing this as a form of warning: be careful, 774VH is substantially heavy whereas 774VL is way too light.

NyoGel 774VH: 16830 cSt *0.86 = 14473,8 cP @ 40c
NyoGel 774 = 5070 cSt *0.86 = 4360,2 cP @ 40c
NyoGel 774VL = 903 cSt *0.86 = 776,58 cP @ 40c

For comparison, the notoriously heavy 767A has this viscosity:
NyoGel 767A: 28185 cSt *0.87 = 24520,95 cP @ 40c

The reason I mix the 767A with OKS 477, is to make the mixed lube viscosity lighter.

The viscosity of OKS 477 is: 1600 cSt *0.87 = 1392 cP @40c

I cannot calculate the exact viscosity rating that the mix has. However it cannot possibly be lower than the 1392 cP of OKS 477. Probably it would be somewhere between that and the 24520 cP of NG 767A. I guess, with a mix of 80 767A - 20 477. Using simple logic, it should be somewhere in the ballpark of 60% - 90% of the viscosity of 767A. But I may be wrong and it could be way less than that. I don't know how mixing the lubes changes the mixed viscosity. So anyone wishing to try and buy one of the 774 series should have this in mind.

This is only my guess, but anything below the viscosity of OKS 477 is out of the question without any second though. So I think that at least the NG 774 would be needed. However, it too may prove to be too light, so I can't know for sure which one to try first. My *guess* is that the 774 or the 774H would be the sweetspot lube.

UPDATE:

now that I think about it, the NG 774VH has about half (55%) of the viscosity of 767A. Maybe *that* one would be the best? Also there is another option the 774H which is in between the 774VH and 774. Maybe that would be the one. :?: :?:

In any case, I think it is clear by now, that the Nye company offers so many options and they are so specialized in lubes, that it probably has a product that can easily replace the OG lube.


Cool, thanks for the information.
I took a look at those viscosities, saw how different they were and didn't even think of mixing it with something.

I received a reply back from the TAI Lubricants rep about the 774, here's what I got in reply:
Spoiler:
Thank you for your interest in Nye's Nyogel 774. We only carry this in a 500 gram jar. These are currently on back order with Nye until June 4th. Price per 500 gram jar is $169.95.

There is no minimum order. We accept Visa/MasterCard/American Express/Discover.

If you have any other questions before ordering, please feel free to contact me. I look forward to doing business.

Enjoy the day. Be safe.

Ouch, 500 grams is a lot of lubricant to be unsure about purchasing and get stuck with, lol.
I'm going to keep looking, hopefully I can find a smaller amount before TAI's 774 comes off backorder. Otherwise, I'll probably bite the bullet and just grab the 500g jar.

I'll take a look at getting some 774H as well.
If you really get the 500gr jar, i would be willing to buy some from you. This way you wouldn't take all the risk on your own.
Shared pain is less pain.

User avatar
NeK

29 Apr 2021, 23:58

Jesus... 500g would probably lube all the keyboards of all dt members, twice and there will still be some left. Have you tried to contact Nye directly? Ask them for a sample kit of the 774 series, who knows they may give one if you can persuade them. I know that they do have kits for their "industrial" customers.

andresteare

30 Apr 2021, 01:53

Guys, I have good news: China to the rescue!
You can purchase Nyogel 760G, Threebond TB1855, OKS-477 and Nyogel 774H on Taobao, so it's not that hard to get them anymore .

Of course I secured my purchase of 477 and 774h before sharing the links :D

ps: forgot to mention also that the links I shared offer them in small format so you don't have to buy a bucket of lube

dc76

30 Apr 2021, 05:34

andresteare wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 01:53
Guys, I have good news: China to the rescue!
You can purchase Nyogel 760G, Threebond TB1855, OKS-477 and Nyogel 774H on Taobao, so it's not that hard to get them anymore .

Of course I secured my purchase of 477 and 774h before sharing the links :D

ps: forgot to mention also that the links I shared offer them in small format so you don't have to buy a bucket of lube
Thank you very much, purchased some of each for myself.
Once they arrive, I can lube a few switches up according to some of the methods posted previously here and post some results.

User avatar
NeK

30 Apr 2021, 10:20

Wow good news! Are you sure those are not fake though? How do you order? Please send me a pm.

andresteare

30 Apr 2021, 16:31

headphone_jack wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 14:23
andresteare wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 01:09
Ok I know this sounds like a normie suggestion but take a look at Super Lube® Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon®

Captura de pantalla 2021-04-27 190301.png

Grade 2, super duper viscous, and complemented PTFE
I've got a tube of this already for lubing stabs with. I'll give it a whirl on some switches later.
any updates?

dc76

30 Apr 2021, 22:07

NeK wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 10:20
Wow good news! Are you sure those are not fake though? How do you order? Please send me a pm.
PM'd ya

inozenz

30 Apr 2021, 23:06

NeK wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 10:20
Wow good news! Are you sure those are not fake though? How do you order? Please send me a pm.
me too plz...

headphone_jack

01 May 2021, 00:44

andresteare wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 16:31
headphone_jack wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 14:23
andresteare wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 01:09
Ok I know this sounds like a normie suggestion but take a look at Super Lube® Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon®

Captura de pantalla 2021-04-27 190301.png

Grade 2, super duper viscous, and complemented PTFE
I've got a tube of this already for lubing stabs with. I'll give it a whirl on some switches later.
any updates?
Based on first impressions...

Wow.

I really was not expecting this to work at all, but just from the single switch I lubed, it is extremely smooth. Better than both the Nyogel boards I did. I can't say anything about the longevity of this lube, but in my experience with stabs I've never needed to replace it, so it seems durable to me. One thing it does do, though, is mute the sound to a ridiculous level. I hope this will disappear with use, but I have yet to lube any boards with it, and don't really plan on it either. Someone else is welcome to try though!

andresteare

01 May 2021, 01:04

headphone_jack wrote:
01 May 2021, 00:44
andresteare wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 16:31
headphone_jack wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 14:23


I've got a tube of this already for lubing stabs with. I'll give it a whirl on some switches later.
any updates?
Based on first impressions...

Wow.

I really was not expecting this to work at all, but just from the single switch I lubed, it is extremely smooth. Better than both the Nyogel boards I did. I can't say anything about the longevity of this lube, but in my experience with stabs I've never needed to replace it, so it seems durable to me. One thing it does do, though, is mute the sound to a ridiculous level. I hope this will disappear with use, but I have yet to lube any boards with it, and don't really plan on it either. Someone else is welcome to try though!
Nice! thats sounds kinda promising, couple of questions:

1) About the muting, did you applied the lube layer as thin as posible? You lubed both the slider and the housing rails or just one of them?

2)¿the smothness was good at any angle? ¿no binding at all?

3) Affected the weighting?

Even if it's not the final solution it's a great result, we are getting a better idea of what viscosity is needed, and it's kinda funny that we are looking at specsheets all over the internet and the most common grease is getting good results lol

thanks for taking the time to test man, we're getting closer
Last edited by andresteare on 01 May 2021, 02:45, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NeK

01 May 2021, 02:21

headphone_jack wrote:
01 May 2021, 00:44
andresteare wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 16:31
headphone_jack wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 14:23


I've got a tube of this already for lubing stabs with. I'll give it a whirl on some switches later.
any updates?
Based on first impressions...

Wow.

I really was not expecting this to work at all, but just from the single switch I lubed, it is extremely smooth. Better than both the Nyogel boards I did. I can't say anything about the longevity of this lube, but in my experience with stabs I've never needed to replace it, so it seems durable to me. One thing it does do, though, is mute the sound to a ridiculous level. I hope this will disappear with use, but I have yet to lube any boards with it, and don't really plan on it either. Someone else is welcome to try though!
I am really glad that it worked. For the sound issue, I think that you could try to gentle wipe the stem and rails. This will remove most of the excess lube off but it will leave the lube that has already penetrated/satured the materials and therefore will still have same the smoothness without the muffling the sound.

andresteare

01 May 2021, 17:42

NeK wrote:
01 May 2021, 02:21
headphone_jack wrote:
01 May 2021, 00:44
andresteare wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 16:31


any updates?
Based on first impressions...

Wow.

I really was not expecting this to work at all, but just from the single switch I lubed, it is extremely smooth. Better than both the Nyogel boards I did. I can't say anything about the longevity of this lube, but in my experience with stabs I've never needed to replace it, so it seems durable to me. One thing it does do, though, is mute the sound to a ridiculous level. I hope this will disappear with use, but I have yet to lube any boards with it, and don't really plan on it either. Someone else is welcome to try though!
I am really glad that it worked. For the sound issue, I think that you could try to gentle wipe the stem and rails. This will remove most of the excess lube off but it will leave the lube that has already penetrated/satured the materials and therefore will still have same the smoothness without the muffling the sound.

Maybe heating the lube a little before application would make it easy to avoid excess. Nothing excessive, something like 50° should be enough to soften it to krytox levels.

andresteare

03 May 2021, 18:39

So to summarize the status of this post for newcomers:

Decent results with lots of testing:
- Nyogel 760G

Great results but need more testing:
- Nyogel 767A + OKS 477

Very promising results but need more testing:
- Super Lube 92016 Silicone Grease with Syncolon (PTFE) (best availability)

Good candidates with promising specifications:
- Threebond TB1855
- Nyogel 774
- Nyogel 774H
- Threebond TB2583G (No one has been able to source it)

Possible OG but unobtanium:
- Threebond TB2581P

dc76

04 May 2021, 03:50

I am also going to try the Super Lube, since it's a good test in the meantime until the rest arrive.
Should be here wednesday, I'll report back with some results.


andresteare you bring up a great point about using heat to help with a thinner application. I'll probably try this if I have any issues.

andresteare

04 May 2021, 05:16

dc76 wrote:
04 May 2021, 03:50
I am also going to try the Super Lube, since it's a good test in the meantime until the rest arrive.
Should be here wednesday, I'll report back with some results.


andresteare you bring up a great point about using heat to help with a thinner application. I'll probably try this if I have any issues.
Great!, I would suggest to only apply lube to the slider and not the housing, the idea is to minimize de layer of lube. Looking forward for your results :)

andresteare

Yesterday, 17:46

Another tip for a thin application es to apply the lube very near to a light source, so you can only see the lube by the reflection of light

dc76

Yesterday, 23:20

Okay, did a quick lube up of a single switch on the board.

Here's a video comparison: The lubed/unlubed/stock keys are
Spoiler:
O - cleaned then lubed with the SuperLube ; P - stock unopened(uncleaned, slightly dusty) ; [ - opened and cleaned, no lube applied
I'm not really sure yet. I really feel like I need to do the whole board to get an accurate assessment.
Overall, I would say that the feel is improved. There is more smoothness, but it doesn't feel drastically different from the stock unopened/uncleaned switch.

Here's a picture of the lube job on the slider. I opened the switch, cleaned it with a brush and blew out the dust.
After that, I stuck the tip of a different, smaller brush into the SuperLube and then painted the side of the can until I no longer saw any white, only a translucent shiny layer.
I lubed the slider all around and reassembled the switch.

If you have any suggestions, please drop them.
If you think my lube job wasn't adequate, or I put too much on etc just let me know and I can adjust to whatever technique you'd like to have replicated.

andresteare

Today, 02:44

dc76 wrote:
Yesterday, 23:20
Okay, did a quick lube up of a single switch on the board.

Here's a video comparison: The lubed/unlubed/stock keys are
Spoiler:
O - cleaned then lubed with the SuperLube ; P - stock unopened(uncleaned, slightly dusty) ; [ - opened and cleaned, no lube applied
I'm not really sure yet. I really feel like I need to do the whole board to get an accurate assessment.
Overall, I would say that the feel is improved. There is more smoothness, but it doesn't feel drastically different from the stock unopened/uncleaned switch.

Here's a picture of the lube job on the slider. I opened the switch, cleaned it with a brush and blew out the dust.
After that, I stuck the tip of a different, smaller brush into the SuperLube and then painted the side of the can until I no longer saw any white, only a translucent shiny layer.
I lubed the slider all around and reassembled the switch.

If you have any suggestions, please drop them.
If you think my lube job wasn't adequate, or I put too much on etc just let me know and I can adjust to whatever technique you'd like to have replicated.
Thanks for taking the time, I have a question, what is the condition of your green switches, because if they're 9/10 then the lube did a great job replicating OG. If if that wasn't the case, dang it, I thought this was it

User avatar
NeK

Today, 10:38

Regarding what I have said about the viscosity of a lubricant in the previous posts, I want to say that I have proved myself wrong.

According to the specfication of OKS 1110 grease, it is more viscous than OKS 477. However I tried it on an SKCM switch and it didn't have any positively effect, neither made it smoother nor eliminated the stick-slip. Actually I think it made it worse...

One difference between the 1110 and the 477 is that the former has PDMS (polydimethylsiloxane) as base oil where the 477 has PAO (polyalphaolefine) base oil.

This goes totally against what I said about viscosity and it proves that it is, in the end, as false as it can get. :(

I am really dissapointed at this point, so I decided to reach out for help to chemists/tribologists/specialists and I posted a relevant question in the Chemistry Stack Exchange.

I hope that someone will provide some light on to this.

User avatar
Bjerrk

Today, 10:45

NeK wrote:
Today, 10:38
Regarding what I have said about the viscosity of a lubricant in the previous posts, I want to say that I have proved myself wrong.

According to the specfication of OKS 1110 grease, it is more viscous than OKS 477. However I tried it on an SKCM switch and it didn't have any positively effect, neither made it smoother nor eliminated the stick-slip. Actually I think it made it worse...

One difference between the 1110 and the 477 is that the former has PDMS (polydimethylsiloxane) as base oil where the 477 has PAO (polyalphaolefine) base oil.

This goes totally against what I said about viscosity and it proves that it is, in the end, as false as it can get. :(

I am really dissapointed at this point, so I decided to reach out for help to chemists/tribologists/specialists
You know what? Kudos to you! This is exactly how science works, and it is beautiful!
I end up proving myself wrong all the time (research physicist) and it never gets any less disappointing - but so worthwhile!

I, for one, really appreciate the research you're doing here. It's all pieces to the puzzle, and one day the big picture will stand out clearly.

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