Alps Lubricant FOUND!

User avatar
NeK

18 Jan 2022, 15:59

headphone_jack wrote:
17 Jan 2022, 22:52
We already know what the original lube was. Alps themselves told us. Confused if Nek is trying to find a modern analogue (in which case, I have no idea why he dismissed wax boiling) or trying to find the original lube (which again, we already have.) I haven't been keeping track of this thread for a while, so I'm very out of touch.
We also got the list of the ingredients and the specifications of OG lube directly from ThreeBond themselves.
I now am trying to find a matching grease based on that specs. Wax and wax boiling are out of spec for the OG lube (it is not even a grease, for starters), so a new thread about wax boiling was created, in order to keep this topic focused on finding an on-spec modern in-production replacement grease.

I hope this clears up this confusion. For wax boiling discussion please use the dedicated thread.
Last edited by NeK on 18 Jan 2022, 16:10, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NeK

18 Jan 2022, 16:08

Lalaland124 wrote:
14 Jan 2022, 18:31
NeK wrote:
14 Jan 2022, 17:26
(I'm at work and on my phone so i cant write fluently. )

Nice nice. The part about the solvent and how it evaporates is great info!

But OKS 402 is way to thin in viscosity. The OG lube is 800mm2/s at 25C (japan measurements) not 660. How did 660 came up?

Also the Rheolube 368 that I tried is more viscous. About 200mm2/s at 40C. So 100mm2/s @ 40C of OKS402 seems way, way too thin. If the R368 didn't work, it will be even worse with oks402. (Assuming that viscosity plays a major role, which may not)
Yeah, I thought the same about the viscosity when I received the mail. Might be interesting to try it out anyways.
I sent him the information on the ThreeBond lube thats where the number 600 comes from.
NeK wrote:
14 Jan 2022, 17:31
Lalaland124 wrote:
14 Jan 2022, 13:55
Also found an old Reddit Post talking about ThreeBond where they list the old patent as well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... e_mystery/
Just to save you wasting time on thus, we have been through that (in this thread way back). The patent isn't relevant.
Yeah I've seen that post now too. Are we still looking for a more detailed description of the og lube or do we have all characteristics we need?
I have tried a bunch of the samples that I got on some SKCM blues (will update eith details later when I find time) and it turns out that a heavy viscosity is important.

I did the math and the OG is 800mm2/s at 25C, which when converted to kinematic viscosity (the one that almost all lube datasheets state) is ~957 cSt @ 25C. So at 40C a lube must be around 600+ cSt, if not more. Therefore a 100-150cSt @ 40C as they recommended, will just not cut it.

User avatar
NeK

19 Jan 2022, 09:17

I've done my first testing of the greases and here are my results:

NOTE: I removed the click leafs, in order to focus only on the sliding smoothness, stick-slip and binding
1. Rheolube 368AXF
TDS_SHORT_English_RHEOLUBE+368AXF.png
TDS_SHORT_English_RHEOLUBE+368AXF.png (43.37 KiB) Viewed 10325 times
2. Fluorocarbon 868
TDS_Fluorocarbon_Gel_868.pdf
(74.15 KiB) Downloaded 106 times
3. NyoGel 774H
TDS_NyoGel_774H.pdf
(75.02 KiB) Downloaded 104 times
4. NyoGel 773A
TDS_SHORT_French_NYOGEL 773A.pdf
(61.26 KiB) Downloaded 114 times
5. NyoGel 767A
767a.pdf
(1.71 MiB) Downloaded 138 times
6. Cleaned (no lube)
7. Original Lube

Sadly, as you can see, most of them are not delivering a smooth slide. The only ones that do make a smooth slide is 1. NyoGel 773A and the goo old NyoGel 767A. Most of them, actually make the sliding worse and some make it bind. Notice, how even the "cleaned" switch, is in fact better than all the rest, which is weird to say the least.

Between N. 773A and 767A, the clear winner is 767A because of two things: The 773A is very smooth, yet it makes the switch bind on some corner presses, whereas the 767A has no binding at all, just like that OG lube. Between the 767A and OG lube there is a difference, the 767A is slower, meaning, you need to press a bit harder.

That's my results so far, and the conclusions are a bit confusing.

The worst of all was the Fluorocarbon 868, followed by the NyoGel 774H.

The most weird thing about those is that both are very, very viscous. They have 5 to 10 times the viscosity of the OG lube. But despite that, they were unable to provide a smooth slide without stick-slip and to eliminate any binding. On the contrary, they made the switch bind and stick-slip worse.

The Rheolube 368AXF, despite not being viscous enough to give a smooth sliding and eliminate stick-slip and binding, it was certainly not as bad as the F868 or the N. 774H, in fact it did feel kind of like the OG lube. This makes sense, because they are made of the same ingredients as the OG. The difference is that the R. 686AXF is much lighter (more than half the viscosity of OG). Therefore I guess that if there was a version of 368AXF that had at least double the viscosity, it probably be similar to OG.

One more important thing that I don't demonstrate in this video, is that the Rheolube 368AXF, when used with the click leaf, it eliminated the upstroke click, just like the OG lube. N. 767A on the other hand is doing the exact opposite, it accentuates the upstroke click instead. So, the takeaway is that there is something about Lithium Soap thickener that works with SKCM both for the stems and for the leafs.

Next test that I will try, is to mix a bit of 767A with 368AXF, and I hope that it will make the 368AXF strong/thick enough to eliminate any binding and stick slip while retaining its good properties that both it and the OG lube have.

User avatar
thefarside

19 Jan 2022, 15:23

I wonder if the original lubricant would help a switch that is binding and scratchy. My thinking is the factory lubricant is dependent upon a clean and smooth slider and associated parts to protect them and ensure a long lifetime of operation if kept in normal conditions.

I was also curious if a materials analysis lab would be able to fill in any missing information on the original lube.

User avatar
NeK

19 Jan 2022, 20:53

thefarside wrote:
19 Jan 2022, 15:23
I wonder if the original lubricant would help a switch that is binding and scratchy. My thinking is the factory lubricant is dependent upon a clean and smooth slider and associated parts to protect them and ensure a long lifetime of operation if kept in normal conditions.

I was also curious if a materials analysis lab would be able to fill in any missing information on the original lube.
Well, I am not sure about that. There are 2 important factors that play a big role, one is how corroded/scratched/oxidized the plastics are and two is the OG lube. From my experiences I can tell you that if you take a switch with deteriorated plastics and polish it out, it eliminates any binding and it definitely becomes much smoother. However, all the lube has gone if you do that, and the characteristic "silk-feel" gets lost and it is not that good anymore. A White SKCM will feel much better at that point.

I don't know what will happen if we applied the OG lube to a deteriorated switch, for obvious reasons. :lol: But I can tell you that when I applied a very thin layer of N. 767A (which at least works and comes very close to OG), I can tell you that it certainly does help. It eliminates any binding and it gives you that great "silk-feel". However you can still feel that the switch is a bit rough.

So, based on that, a properly polished switch with a freshly applied OG lube (or equivalent) would probably restore it to almost new condition.

User avatar
thefarside

20 Jan 2022, 02:24

NeK wrote:
19 Jan 2022, 20:53
thefarside wrote:
19 Jan 2022, 15:23
I wonder if the original lubricant would help a switch that is binding and scratchy. My thinking is the factory lubricant is dependent upon a clean and smooth slider and associated parts to protect them and ensure a long lifetime of operation if kept in normal conditions.

I was also curious if a materials analysis lab would be able to fill in any missing information on the original lube.
Well, I am not sure about that. There are 2 important factors that play a big role, one is how corroded/scratched/oxidized the plastics are and two is the OG lube. From my experiences I can tell you that if you take a switch with deteriorated plastics and polish it out, it eliminates any binding and it definitely becomes much smoother. However, all the lube has gone if you do that, and the characteristic "silk-feel" gets lost and it is not that good anymore. A White SKCM will feel much better at that point.

I don't know what will happen if we applied the OG lube to a deteriorated switch, for obvious reasons. :lol: But I can tell you that when I applied a very thin layer of N. 767A (which at least works and comes very close to OG), I can tell you that it certainly does help. It eliminates any binding and it gives you that great "silk-feel". However you can still feel that the switch is a bit rough.

So, based on that, a properly polished switch with a freshly applied OG lube (or equivalent) would probably restore it to almost new condition.
I agree. Most of us will want OG lube or similar to restore switches with binding or scratchiness issues, but the surfaces must also be in good condition.

While I was writing my first post I was thinking…. the only way to properly compare lube performance would be to take a perfectly good condition blue or orange alps switch (I haven’t seen any lube on my white alps switches) and remove all of the factory lube, then apply an alternative lube and compare the feel.

I might do this with some orange and blue alps I have in perfect condition. I have Nyogel 767A and it turned unusable alps clones on an FK-2001 to a very usable state, but the clone switches sucked, so I’m curious how this would work on real alps.

How did you apply the 767A and was it only to the slider?

User avatar
NeK

20 Jan 2022, 08:00

thefarside wrote:
20 Jan 2022, 02:24
I agree. Most of us will want OG lube or similar to restore switches with binding or scratchiness issues, but the surfaces must also be in good condition.

While I was writing my first post I was thinking…. the only way to properly compare lube performance would be to take a perfectly good condition blue or orange alps switch (I haven’t seen any lube on my white alps switches) and remove all of the factory lube, then apply an alternative lube and compare the feel.
In the video above, I did just that. For comparison reasons, the last switch in the video is one Blue SKCM with OG lube at 9/10 condition and one that I have cleaned with soap-water thoroughly (removed the OG lube) and without applying any other lube, which I labeled it "clean" and is the second last on the video.
I might do this with some orange and blue alps I have in perfect condition. I have Nyogel 767A and it turned unusable alps clones on an FK-2001 to a very usable state, but the clone switches sucked, so I’m curious how this would work on real alps.

How did you apply the 767A and was it only to the slider?
I applied it with a very small paint brush on the stem's contact points (on its rails) and I left it for 20-30 minutes to "cure" and then I used a tissue and wiped it, so only a very, very thin layer was left on the stem, almost invisible. This how I get the best results with the N.767A. Note: I didn't mix it with other lubes.

About the clones, I have no idea what material they are made of. However on real ALPS it works wonders, it's almost as good as the OG lube, depending on how well it has been applied. In general, the thinner the better, because N.767A is very thick. However, I don't apply any on the back and on the front surfaces of the stem (the points where the contact leaf and click leafs make contact), because it makes have a horrible up-stroke click.

One takeaway from these new lubes and tests, is that if in addition to the N.767A on the sliders of them, I apply Rheolube 368AXF on the front and back sufaces instead, it works like the OG lube and it eliminates the upstroke click and makes the click better. I am investigating this still and will make a post about it soon when I have some time.

User avatar
Lalaland124

23 Jan 2022, 14:02

A different company responded an advised me to use the so called ,,Präzisionsschmierfett B52 TF11410''. It's a precision grease used for mechanical parts and the specs are as followed:

Precision grease -> TF1410, grade B-52
Content -> 7 g
Appearance / Color -> yellowish / ASTM 1
Consistency -> very soft, semi-liquid
Density 20 ° C (g / cm³) -> DIN 0.9
Density 20 ° C, mPa - s -> D = 500 s · ¹ ---> 1100 | D = 5000 s · ¹ ---> 600
Dropping point ° C -> 180
Base oil -> mineral oils
Thickener -> metal soap + inorganic
Basic construction -> Metal soap grease based on mineral oil adjusted to very soft consistency by inorganic gel agents
Application temperature. ° C -> -20 to +80
Dangerous goods -> NO

an extra data sheet is also available, but unfortunately only in german (https://www.fohrmann.com/media/pdf/a0/6 ... tt-B52.pdf)

If someone wants to buy it here's the link:
https://www.uhrmacherwerkzeuge.com/Till ... ase-TF1410
Last edited by Lalaland124 on 23 Jan 2022, 14:35, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NeK

23 Jan 2022, 14:12

Great.

however I can't seem to download the pdf from my mobile. And those specs they gave are not helpful. I'll try later with my pc.

User avatar
Bjerrk

23 Jan 2022, 14:26

Somehow the links were cut off.

User avatar
Lalaland124

23 Jan 2022, 14:35

Should work now. If not here's a screenshot:

Spoiler:
B52.png
B52.png (553.18 KiB) Viewed 10054 times

User avatar
NeK

23 Jan 2022, 14:50

thanks! Looking at the specs, I found what the important bit: viscosity basisol, which I guess means (absolute) Viscosity of Base Oil. At 20C is 210mm2/s. OG specs are 800mm2/s at 25C, which is 5 times more viscous at 5C more. Which at 20C mudt be even more viscous (more than 800mm2/s).

So, it's way too thin and imho it is not worth pursuing it any further.

User avatar
NeK

23 Jan 2022, 15:01

Wait a minute. It has this table on the top left with the title "scherviskositat" that it is 590-730 mPa/s at 25C. can you please translate what that means? It seems interesting.

User avatar
Bjerrk

23 Jan 2022, 15:08

Sounds like the dynamic shear viscosity! (It's mPa*s btw :-) )

User avatar
Lalaland124

23 Jan 2022, 15:11

NeK wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 15:01
Wait a minute. It has this table on the top left with the title "scherviskositat" that it is 590-730 mPa/s at 25C. can you please translate what that means? It seems interesting.
Here's a translation based on the German explanation for "scherviskosität":

"The resistance between the upper and lower plates can be measured as dynamic viscosity in Pa-s (Pascal seconds) and specified as shear viscosity for lubricating greases. The velocity gradient between the plates is given as shear rate in 1/s."

So it seems like it's shear viscosity :)

Maybe someone with a background in mechanics can tell us more about it.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

23 Jan 2022, 15:15

Shear means sliding, like a slider in a switch. So I reckon that's the sliding viscosity: the relevant kind for switches.

Ordinarily, viscosity is the scientific term for how gloopy something is. But sheer viscosity will be specific to how it slides.

User avatar
NeK

23 Jan 2022, 15:19

Bjerrk wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 15:08
Sounds like the dynamic shear viscosity! (It's mPa*s btw :-) )
Thanks for correcting me. :oops:

That means that if "dynamic shear viscosity" is comparable to the plain "dynamic viscosity" of the OG specs, then... it comes pretty close!

However I don't trust the other generic things they mention like "thickener: metal soap". Metal? I mean, it can be anything from lithium soap to calcium complex or aluminium complex, right? Also the "inorganic" probably means silica/silicone which. All those deviate from the OG specs. :(

User avatar
Bjerrk

23 Jan 2022, 15:31

Yeah, agreed, super vague. Shear stress basically refers to forces due to sliding motion, so it should be the kind of (dynamic) viscosity we're looking for :-)

User avatar
Lalaland124

23 Jan 2022, 15:35

NeK wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 15:19
Bjerrk wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 15:08
Sounds like the dynamic shear viscosity! (It's mPa*s btw :-) )
Thanks for correcting me. :oops:

That means that if "dynamic shear viscosity" is comparable to the plain "dynamic viscosity" of the OG specs, then... it comes pretty close!

However I don't trust the other generic things they mention like "thickener: metal soap". Metal? I mean, it can be anything from lithium soap to calcium complex or aluminium complex, right? Also the "inorganic" probably means silica/silicone which. All those deviate from the OG specs. :(
I would totally buy it for testing, but for one I don't really have a nos Alps switch to compare it to and also don't really have the experience with other lubes :cry: I do have the contact to the spokeswoman from the manufacturer so if we need any more information I can ask her.

User avatar
NeK

23 Jan 2022, 15:46

Bjerrk wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 15:31
Yeah, agreed, super vague. Shear stress basically refers to forces due to sliding motion, so it should be the kind of (dynamic) viscosity we're looking for :-)
What confuses me is that there is a Viscosity for Base Oil, and there is a Viscosity for the whole lube? Am I reading this correctly? If that is the case then this means that the specs of all greases that state the Base Oil Viscosity, could be different from the Viscosity of the whole grease. Now that is something I didn't think before. And makes everything much, much more complex.

User avatar
NeK

23 Jan 2022, 15:51

Lalaland124 wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 15:35
NeK wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 15:19
Bjerrk wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 15:08
Sounds like the dynamic shear viscosity! (It's mPa*s btw :-) )
Thanks for correcting me. :oops:

That means that if "dynamic shear viscosity" is comparable to the plain "dynamic viscosity" of the OG specs, then... it comes pretty close!

However I don't trust the other generic things they mention like "thickener: metal soap". Metal? I mean, it can be anything from lithium soap to calcium complex or aluminium complex, right? Also the "inorganic" probably means silica/silicone which. All those deviate from the OG specs. :(
I would totally buy it for testing, but for one I don't really have a nos Alps switch to compare it to and also don't really have the experience with other lubes :cry: I do have the contact to the spokeswoman from the manufacturer so if we need any more information I can ask her.
Can you ask her:
1. is the Dynamic Shear Viscosity, the common "Dynamic Viscosity" that is found in all lubricant TDS and that we should focus on it or we should only focus on the "Base Oil Viscosity" ? In other words, is the grease's viscosity 730 mPa*s @ 25C or is it 210mm2/s at 20C? Which is the one?
2. What "Metal" soap is exactly? Lithium-Soap, Lithium-Complex, Calcium-soap, Aluminium-Soap or is it something else?

User avatar
Lalaland124

23 Jan 2022, 19:12

She sent me this in her original mail. I don't know why but somehow I didn't see it until now:


,,Es ist auf Basis von Mineralöl und Lithiumseife aufgebaut und wird auf eine Zielviskosität 660 mPa.s bei Scherrate 1000/s und 25°C Prüftemperatur eingestellt.''


So it's based on lithium soap and mineral oil. The target viscosity is 660 mPa.s at a shear rate of 1000/s and 25°C test temperature. She also added that I could have a test sample sent to me.

User avatar
NeK

23 Jan 2022, 23:38

Lalaland124 wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 19:12
She sent me this in her original mail. I don't know why but somehow I didn't see it until now:


,,Es ist auf Basis von Mineralöl und Lithiumseife aufgebaut und wird auf eine Zielviskosität 660 mPa.s bei Scherrate 1000/s und 25°C Prüftemperatur eingestellt.''


So it's based on lithium soap and mineral oil. The target viscosity is 660 mPa.s at a shear rate of 1000/s and 25°C test temperature. She also added that I could have a test sample sent to me.
Interesting. Please ask her if she could sent one to me in greece instead?

User avatar
Lalaland124

26 Jan 2022, 12:13

NeK wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 23:38
Lalaland124 wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 19:12
She sent me this in her original mail. I don't know why but somehow I didn't see it until now:


,,Es ist auf Basis von Mineralöl und Lithiumseife aufgebaut und wird auf eine Zielviskosität 660 mPa.s bei Scherrate 1000/s und 25°C Prüftemperatur eingestellt.''


So it's based on lithium soap and mineral oil. The target viscosity is 660 mPa.s at a shear rate of 1000/s and 25°C test temperature. She also added that I could have a test sample sent to me.
Interesting. Please ask her if she could sent one to me in greece instead?
I did but she sadly never got back to me again.

User avatar
NeK

03 Feb 2022, 10:11

Lalaland124 wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 14:02
A different company responded an advised me to use the so called ,,Präzisionsschmierfett B52 TF11410''. It's a precision grease used for mechanical parts and the specs are as followed:

Precision grease -> TF1410, grade B-52
Content -> 7 g
Appearance / Color -> yellowish / ASTM 1
Consistency -> very soft, semi-liquid
Density 20 ° C (g / cm³) -> DIN 0.9
Density 20 ° C, mPa - s -> D = 500 s · ¹ ---> 1100 | D = 5000 s · ¹ ---> 600
Dropping point ° C -> 180
Base oil -> mineral oils
Thickener -> metal soap + inorganic
Basic construction -> Metal soap grease based on mineral oil adjusted to very soft consistency by inorganic gel agents
Application temperature. ° C -> -20 to +80
Dangerous goods -> NO

an extra data sheet is also available, but unfortunately only in german (https://www.fohrmann.com/media/pdf/a0/6 ... tt-B52.pdf)

If someone wants to buy it here's the link:
https://www.uhrmacherwerkzeuge.com/Till ... ase-TF1410
I (also?) sent an email to https://www.tillwich-stehr.com/en which makes the product and asked them about it and if it is adequate to replace the original lube or if they have another product that can do it. Let's wait and see what they will reply.

User avatar
Lalaland124

03 Feb 2022, 10:23

NeK wrote:
03 Feb 2022, 10:11
Lalaland124 wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 14:02
A different company responded an advised me to use the so called ,,Präzisionsschmierfett B52 TF11410''. It's a precision grease used for mechanical parts and the specs are as followed:

Precision grease -> TF1410, grade B-52
Content -> 7 g
Appearance / Color -> yellowish / ASTM 1
Consistency -> very soft, semi-liquid
Density 20 ° C (g / cm³) -> DIN 0.9
Density 20 ° C, mPa - s -> D = 500 s · ¹ ---> 1100 | D = 5000 s · ¹ ---> 600
Dropping point ° C -> 180
Base oil -> mineral oils
Thickener -> metal soap + inorganic
Basic construction -> Metal soap grease based on mineral oil adjusted to very soft consistency by inorganic gel agents
Application temperature. ° C -> -20 to +80
Dangerous goods -> NO

an extra data sheet is also available, but unfortunately only in german (https://www.fohrmann.com/media/pdf/a0/6 ... tt-B52.pdf)

If someone wants to buy it here's the link:
https://www.uhrmacherwerkzeuge.com/Till ... ase-TF1410
I (also?) sent an email to https://www.tillwich-stehr.com/en which makes the product and asked them about it and if it is adequate to replace the original lube or if they have another product that can do it. Let's wait and see what they will reply.
Great - a few weeks ago I contacted many lubricant companies and they were amongst the one who responded. That's how I found the grease. Maybe you can convince them to send you a sample, because she didn't respond to me ever since I asked for one myself.

User avatar
NeK

27 Feb 2022, 23:58

Thanks to Lalaland124, I received the Dr. Tillwich lube!

dr-tillwich.jpg
dr-tillwich.jpg (1.57 MiB) Viewed 9117 times
(no idea what it says, I don't speak German) :oops:

And here are my results:
Ouch... That didn't go well, at all. :|

I am starting to think that the consistency of the lube may be the detrimental factor and not the viscosity for SKCM. Still the only lube that really does is still the Nyogel 767A, which apart from being exceptionally viscous, it is also NLGI 3 (stiff).

Maybe that is way wax works somewhat, because it is pretty stiff (at least NLGI 3, even more). The OG lube specs do not state its consistency, maybe that's what we have overlooked all this time? :?:

User avatar
zrrion

28 Feb 2022, 00:38

I've had good results using simple dielectric bulb grease. The specific brand I use is Permatex #85184 but I am sure a similar product from another source would work as well. I got a small tube forever ago for stabilizer rattle reduction but have recently been restoring some pretty bad switches where a waxmod is simply not enough (although the wax mod is a large improvement from just cleaning) and a wet lube in addition to wax is required. I've tried it on SKCM, KCL, and linear SI so far and have had nice results. The high viscosity does mean you have to be very careful not to overlube though and I do not know if it is safe to use on the rubber dampeners in dampened creams but it is otherwise producing good results.

User avatar
NeK

28 Feb 2022, 06:02

zrrion wrote:
28 Feb 2022, 00:38
I've had good results using simple dielectric bulb grease. The specific brand I use is Permatex #85184 but I am sure a similar product from another source would work as well. I got a small tube forever ago for stabilizer rattle reduction but have recently been restoring some pretty bad switches where a waxmod is simply not enough (although the wax mod is a large improvement from just cleaning) and a wet lube in addition to wax is required. I've tried it on SKCM, KCL, and linear SI so far and have had nice results. The high viscosity does mean you have to be very careful not to overlube though and I do not know if it is safe to use on the rubber dampeners in dampened creams but it is otherwise producing good results.
I can't find any data about it on google. Is not even listed in the manufacturer's site. It would be interesting to know the NLGI grade and its viscosity.

User avatar
zrrion

28 Feb 2022, 08:40

https://permatex.com.ua/wp-content/uplo ... 41-TDS.pdf
>viscosity - grease
unfortunately this is not super helpful.

https://www.permatex.com/wp-content/upl ... /85184.pdf
more info here, but it's the sds so it's mostly about how you should avoid eating it

unfortunately all I could find with my limited knowledge of this sort of thing was these 2 links. Best bet would be to contact permatex or find a competitor's equivalent that you can find data on

85184 is just the item number for the small tube of grease, not for the grease itself, the sds has more info on that but not much

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