Alps Lubricant FOUND!

dc76

07 May 2021, 01:15

andresteare wrote:
06 May 2021, 02:44

Thanks for taking the time, I have a question, what is the condition of your green switches, because if they're 9/10 then the lube did a great job replicating OG. If if that wasn't the case, dang it, I thought this was it
Yep, thanks for taking the time to contribute here and make this stuff happen.

Condition is probably around 7/10 uncleaned, 8/10 once cleaned.
No binding issues or anything dramatic, they're just used switches without corrosion.
I'm probably going to end up lubing a few more switches this weekend just to get a better size sample.

cheese

07 May 2021, 10:09

This is the one to get, so if anyone knows chinese or is in japan and can source this to others, that would be great. TB2585G.

http://www.114pifa.com/p3864/7335574.html

Image

inozenz

07 May 2021, 15:31

cheese wrote:
07 May 2021, 10:09
This is the one to get, so if anyone knows chinese or is in japan and can source this to others, that would be great. TB2585G.

http://www.114pifa.com/p3864/7335574.html

Image
Hit me up aswell, always looking for the best lubricant.

User avatar
ZedTheMan

07 May 2021, 15:43

andresteare wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 01:53
Guys, I have good news: China to the rescue!
You can purchase Nyogel 760G, Threebond TB1855, OKS-477 and Nyogel 774H on Taobao, so it's not that hard to get them anymore .

Of course I secured my purchase of 477 and 774h before sharing the links :D

ps: forgot to mention also that the links I shared offer them in small format so you don't have to buy a bucket of lube
Hey can you PM me with instructions too?

User avatar
NeK

08 May 2021, 12:23

Bjerrk wrote:
06 May 2021, 10:45
You know what? Kudos to you! This is exactly how science works, and it is beautiful!
I end up proving myself wrong all the time (research physicist) and it never gets any less disappointing - but so worthwhile!

I, for one, really appreciate the research you're doing here. It's all pieces to the puzzle, and one day the big picture will stand out clearly.
Thank you very much for the support :D You are so right and I agree with you 100%, it is indeed worthwhile. Now, that I am past the disappointment, I am more stubborn than ever on getting to the bottom of this. :mrgreen:

For a change, I have some good news: There has been a nice answer to my stack exchange question which gave some light on the issue. I commented and updated the question with more information. It seems that there is a chance that we may reach something useful there. I also added a bounty to the question, with all my rep (albeit I didn't have much), in order to catch more of their interest.

Thank you, it really means something to be appreciated, especially when you get proven wrong. :)

BTW I am amazed that you are a research physicist. I am an enthusiast of modern physics and I love learning anything about them. Would love to talk more about it :)

User avatar
NeK

08 May 2021, 14:41

andresteare wrote:
06 May 2021, 20:35
Maybe related with this
lubeRegimes1-e1511148583728.jpg

When the lube is way too thick it creates a separation between the two objects creating a layer of higher friction. Maybe we have now an idea of how much viscosity is too much and we should work on the thickener of the base oil to reduce friction. I was thinking of looking for lubes with PTFE thickener since PTFE is the plastic with the lowest coefficient of friction, hence why I proposed testing Superluber grease. Nye Lubricants have some PTFE thickened products in their portfolio, I'll revisit those TDS and come back. Remember that we are looking for lubricant based on Synthetic hydrocarbons or Silicone, other base oils are not so friendly with plastics.

We're all learning in this, research must go on :D
Great stuff. I don't think though that the full oil film is responsible in this case. In this case the static friction got higher, which is contrary to what a full oil film "friction" would look like. In my understanding, full oil film should result in almost the same static and dynamic friction. Because if the film oil is really that thick, the surfaces wil actually float on the oil, even when stationary, and therefore will have no binding or any stick-slip behavior, but if the oil makes the friction to go up in general then they would simply be "heavier" to move (press), however they will be constantly heavier, either when moving or when starting to move. No binding and no stick-slip. ;)

There is something very wrong with the Coefficient of Friction in the case of switches that get binding and stick-slip sliding.

Let me explain. CoF is the ratio of the force, needed to push and slide the surfaces vs the force of the load that they already have against each other (this is any force that makes them press against eachother, e.g., gravity).
CoF ratio of lubricants, or self-lubricated materials is measured in the tenths of 1 (e.g. 0.05, 0.1, 0.15, 0.2 etc), which means that the worst case scenario, as in the "boundary" in the above graph, will still only take a fraction of whatever force is pressuring them against eachother in order to move it.

The weirdest thing with our case with the switches, is that there is actually no horizontal force that pressures the stem surface and the housing surface together. The stem and housing are standing vertically to the ground, so gravity is acting vertically on them and therefore they are not pressed against each other horizontally by any force, so essentially they have no load at all. Here is an illustration, similar to the ones in the graph above, but rotated so that it depicts the actual direction and position of the stem and housing surfaces relative to the ground and how gravity acts upon them.

Straight down key press at dead center
straight-press-stem-housing.png
straight-press-stem-housing.png (7.93 KiB) Viewed 5837 times
(the blue surface is the stem and the black surface is the housing)

It is clear that there is no horizontal force that is pushing them together, only gravity that pushes them down. So the surfaces remain apart and the grease/oil that stays in between them is not pressured at all. So if you manage to press the key completely straight down, the only forces that you will need to overcome with your finger is:

1) the spring that is pushing back up, exerting a vertically force and therefore does not influence the horizontal positions of the two surfaces and
2) the friction of the click and contact leafs that are touching the stem and pushing against it.

So in the case of a straight press, there is actually only the friction of the click and contact leafs. :!:

And in conclusion, the Coefficient of Friction is in this case, completely irrelevant, simply because there is no load whatsoever between the stem and the housing, so the CoF of 0 load = 0. (I hope this makes sense.)

Having said that, lets now examine the more interesting case: the angled (corner) press.

Angled press (corner press)
angled-press-stem-housing.png
angled-press-stem-housing.png (10.86 KiB) Viewed 5837 times
When you press the stem at an angle instead, then the stem will lean a little bit and eventually the stem and the housing will get in contact at some point. This will result both in getting them to rub together (dynamic friction) but also, and even worse, at the lowest point of contact, the surface of the stem will actually dig in to the surface of the housing, and they will get stuck.

This is how a key "binds". It literally gets stuck into the other surface, and in order to overcome that, you will need to press it so hard, that the force that you will exert will be in to the hundreds or thousands of times more than their horizontal load force. And remember, the horizontal load force is actually 0 in this case. :shock: (so to be exact, any number above 0 is infinitely bigger than 0, so this means that you exert an infinitely more amount of force. :lol: )

In conclusion, also in this case the Coefficient of Friction of the oil is irrelevant, precisely because the two surfaces have come in to contact and the oil has failed to keep those surfaces apart, So, 1) the only Coefficient of Friction that matters in this case is the one between the two plastic surfaces, which is way, way higher than any oil and 2) the surfaces not only are touching but they have actually got "merged" together and have gotten stuck, so even their CoF is irrelevant when this happens.

Therefore, in order for an oil/grease/lubricant/whatever to successfully prevent the binding, it must be strong enough so the surface of the stem at that point will not penetrate it and will not therefore penetrate the surface of the housing. This will keep them from getting stuck, or "bind".

I had the knowledge that Viscosity is the primary factor of how strong an oil is, and therefore the more viscous, the more it will defend and prevent the penetration of the surfaces.

However, it turns out that viscosity alone is not the only thing that matters, this is where I was wrong. It probably is how well the oil is adhering to the surfaces as well. The answer in my question in the Chemistry Stack Exchange, gave some light to the issue. :!: It may be how well the grease/oil adheres (sticks in) to the plastic surfaces! That really makes sense now, because the OKS 1110 is Silicon Oil and OKS 477 is PAO. So maybe PAO adheres much better and/or strongly to these plastics, so it doesn't matter how more viscous the former is, it simply just doesn't work.

I have commented on that answer and updated my question and wait for more answers, lets wait and see if we get more answers from them.

andresteare

08 May 2021, 17:56

NeK wrote:
08 May 2021, 14:41
andresteare wrote:
06 May 2021, 20:35
Maybe related with this
lubeRegimes1-e1511148583728.jpg

When the lube is way too thick it creates a separation between the two objects creating a layer of higher friction. Maybe we have now an idea of how much viscosity is too much and we should work on the thickener of the base oil to reduce friction. I was thinking of looking for lubes with PTFE thickener since PTFE is the plastic with the lowest coefficient of friction, hence why I proposed testing Superluber grease. Nye Lubricants have some PTFE thickened products in their portfolio, I'll revisit those TDS and come back. Remember that we are looking for lubricant based on Synthetic hydrocarbons or Silicone, other base oils are not so friendly with plastics.

We're all learning in this, research must go on :D
Great stuff. I don't think though that the full oil film is responsible in this case. In this case the static friction got higher, which is contrary to what a full oil film "friction" would look like. In my understanding, full oil film should result in almost the same static and dynamic friction. Because if the film oil is really that thick, the surfaces wil actually float on the oil, even when stationary, and therefore will have no binding or any stick-slip behavior, but if the oil makes the friction to go up in general then they would simply be "heavier" to move (press), however they will be constantly heavier, either when moving or when starting to move. No binding and no stick-slip. ;)

There is something very wrong with the Coefficient of Friction in the case of switches that get binding and stick-slip sliding.

Let me explain. CoF is the ratio of the force, needed to push and slide the surfaces vs the force of the load that they already have against each other (this is any force that makes them press against eachother, e.g., gravity).
CoF ratio of lubricants, or self-lubricated materials is measured in the tenths of 1 (e.g. 0.05, 0.1, 0.15, 0.2 etc), which means that the worst case scenario, as in the "boundary" in the above graph, will still only take a fraction of whatever force is pressuring them against eachother in order to move it.

The weirdest thing with our case with the switches, is that there is actually no horizontal force that pressures the stem surface and the housing surface together. The stem and housing are standing vertically to the ground, so gravity is acting vertically on them and therefore they are not pressed against each other horizontally by any force, so essentially they have no load at all. Here is an illustration, similar to the ones in the graph above, but rotated so that it depicts the actual direction and position of the stem and housing surfaces relative to the ground and how gravity acts upon them.

Straight down key press at dead center

straight-press-stem-housing.png

(the blue surface is the stem and the black surface is the housing)

It is clear that there is no horizontal force that is pushing them together, only gravity that pushes them down. So the surfaces remain apart and the grease/oil that stays in between them is not pressured at all. So if you manage to press the key completely straight down, the only forces that you will need to overcome with your finger is:

1) the spring that is pushing back up, exerting a vertically force and therefore does not influence the horizontal positions of the two surfaces and
2) the friction of the click and contact leafs that are touching the stem and pushing against it.

So in the case of a straight press, there is actually only the friction of the click and contact leafs. :!:

And in conclusion, the Coefficient of Friction is in this case, completely irrelevant, simply because there is no load whatsoever between the stem and the housing, so the CoF of 0 load = 0. (I hope this makes sense.)

Having said that, lets now examine the more interesting case: the angled (corner) press.

Angled press (corner press)

angled-press-stem-housing.png

When you press the stem at an angle instead, then the stem will lean a little bit and eventually the stem and the housing will get in contact at some point. This will result both in getting them to rub together (dynamic friction) but also, and even worse, at the lowest point of contact, the surface of the stem will actually dig in to the surface of the housing, and they will get stuck.

This is how a key "binds". It literally gets stuck into the other surface, and in order to overcome that, you will need to press it so hard, that the force that you will exert will be in to the hundreds or thousands of times more than their horizontal load force. And remember, the horizontal load force is actually 0 in this case. :shock: (so to be exact, any number above 0 is infinitely bigger than 0, so this means that you exert an infinitely more amount of force. :lol: )

In conclusion, also in this case the Coefficient of Friction of the oil is irrelevant, precisely because the two surfaces have come in to contact and the oil has failed to keep those surfaces apart, So, 1) the only Coefficient of Friction that matters in this case is the one between the two plastic surfaces, which is way, way higher than any oil and 2) the surfaces not only are touching but they have actually got "merged" together and have gotten stuck, so even their CoF is irrelevant when this happens.

Therefore, in order for an oil/grease/lubricant/whatever to successfully prevent the binding, it must be strong enough so the surface of the stem at that point will not penetrate it and will not therefore penetrate the surface of the housing. This will keep them from getting stuck, or "bind".

I had the knowledge that Viscosity is the primary factor of how strong an oil is, and therefore the more viscous, the more it will defend and prevent the penetration of the surfaces.

However, it turns out that viscosity alone is not the only thing that matters, this is where I was wrong. It probably is how well the oil is adhering to the surfaces as well. The answer in my question in the Chemistry Stack Exchange, gave some light to the issue. :!: It may be how well the grease/oil adheres (sticks in) to the plastic surfaces! That really makes sense now, because the OKS 1110 is Silicon Oil and OKS 477 is PAO. So maybe PAO adheres much better and/or strongly to these plastics, so it doesn't matter how more viscous the former is, it simply just doesn't work.

I have commented on that answer and updated my question and wait for more answers, lets wait and see if we get more answers from them.
Thanks for the explanation, I'm pretty sure that technically as long as both objects have mass and the fact that they touch makes the existence of a perpendicular force that is kind of a "load" because you can't press the slider in an unreal perfect vertical angle, so there will always be perpendicular force (when you turn it horizontal gravity accelerates the mass of the object increasing the force of the load, force= mass*acceleration), though you have a point of load being much less relevant in this case since there's no gravity accelerating a load. But yes, once you separate both objects with a lubricant the next factor to worry about is how much the lube sticks to the surface.
That said, I checked your post on stackexchange and since I can't post comments given I have no reputation there, I would suggest you to ask in the post for what standarized test methods or specifications should you look for in a specsheet, since TDS are all we got, so ideally someone would look at the TDS in your post and say "pay attention to this test" so we can filter our datasheets.

The more things we know what not to look for the closer we get to our answer :)

headphone_jack

08 May 2021, 21:54

Just a quick word on TB1855:
Apparently, the lube wears off extremely quickly, after about 2 months of use or so. I'll have to confirm this myself, but I think we can cross that one off the list.

andresteare

11 May 2021, 00:06

Need your opinion, I was thinking of posting this research on geekhack to reach a larger community and have more people helping solve this faster. The largest community is on r/mechanicalkeyboards but Reddit is not made for this kind of threads (maybe a little post asking for help with a link of the post?).
What do you guys think, should we keep the effort here or look for help in larger communities?

headphone_jack

11 May 2021, 01:47

andresteare wrote:
11 May 2021, 00:06
Need your opinion, I was thinking of posting this research on geekhack to reach a larger community and have more people helping solve this faster. The largest community is on r/mechanicalkeyboards but Reddit is not made for this kind of threads (maybe a little post asking for help with a link of the post?).
What do you guys think, should we keep the effort here or look for help in larger communities?
I say crosspost to Geekhack only, because leaving Reddit out of this keeps the average IQ here above room temperature. The more smart people we get in on this, the higher chance we have of getting it spot-on.

User avatar
raoulduke-esq

11 May 2021, 05:14

headphone_jack wrote:
11 May 2021, 01:47
leaving Reddit out of this keeps the average IQ here above room temperature
Truth. I created a keyboard channel in the company Slack and it was just taken over by “keeb” people preaching from the book of taeha, extolling the virtues of band-aids/yoga mats/film, debating the nuances between two types of gateron yellow, showing off illuminated display cabinets filled with SFF boards indistinguishable from each other save for the color of the GMK set on each or the price, hating any sort of spring ping, and all questing for a “keeb” that sounds like smacking two dice together on each key press.

There goes the neighborhood…

User avatar
NeK

17 May 2021, 09:10

Great news guys! I have some very interesting information coming directly from ThreeBond.
I contacted Threebond directly, asking for information about any lubricant that they used for the original SKCM switches and after 1-2 weeks they finally replied with a wealth of information. Here is the message I sent and their reply along with the attachment that contains the precious information:

My message that I sent to ThreeBond through their contact us form (I don't remember the exact date, but it was at least 1-2 weeks ago)
Dear sir or madam,

I am desperately trying to find the lubricant or grease that was used with ALPS SKCM keyboard switches, which were manufactured in the 1980s decade.

ALPS SKCM Switches information
wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series

I *know* that they used a Threebond product as a lubricant or grease.

I need it because I have old collectible keyboards, that the grease has dried out and is not working well and they must be fixed by applying a fresh product.

Please, could you help me to find which Threebond product was used?

Thank you very much in advance,
XXXXXXXXXXX
REPLY from ThreeBond 17 May 2021
Dear Mr. XXXXXXXX

Thank you very much for your inquiry to ThreeBond.
I am XXXXXXX from ThreeBond Europe.

I would like to apologize for the delay in contacting you regarding your inquiry.

I have checked with my Japanese colleague in charge at that time about the Tangent Point Conductive Revival Agent that was used for the keyboards manufactured by the ALPS.

It seems that some of our products were used, but now all of them have been discontinued except for TB2501L.

Since it was a very old product, there was no accurate data, but I compiled the product information from the specifications.

We apologize for the inconvenience, but we recommend that you evaluate the products of other manufacturers.

We look forward to your continued support of ThreeBond.
Best regards,
XXXXXXXXXXX

ThreeBond Europe S.A.S
n-suzuki@threebond.fr
(I have removed any personal information for privacy reasons)

Attachment: The attachment lists 3 (!) different ThreeBond Products along, with their name and their specifications (yeah!!).

Some first things that I notice:
  • they list these products TB2501L, TB2511G, TB2581P
  • One of them IS the famous TB2581P. And now we have its specifications! 8-) :D :D :maverick: :maverick: :maverick: :!: :!: :!:
  • the TB2501L which was discussed earlier in this thread, is listed as well! So there is at least one of them available, even after all of those years
  • I have no idea where they used each one of them and how. I'll reply back to ask if they know.
  • Look at those ingredients, :shock: they are way out of anything we have thought of. Except for the famous 2581P which turns out to be a PARAFFIN based oil, i.e. it is WAX!!! :shock: Yes, it is wax just as I thought at some point. Unbelievable!!! People in DT discord will remember me putting actual wax on a switch to try it out and finding that it did gave almost the exact same original feeling. LOL You can't make these things up man, you really just can't. :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D
Wow, we have SO much info now, I feel good and a bit overwhelmed. Lets hear what you all have to say too.

User avatar
Lalaland124

17 May 2021, 09:18

Holyyyy mother of god, that are indeed overwhelmingly good news :lol: That will change quite a lot and I am more than desperate to try those that still are available. Thank you for your effort and work Nek and everyone else that has been digging into this topic for so long!

User avatar
Bjerrk

17 May 2021, 09:22

NeK wrote:
17 May 2021, 09:10
Wow, we have SO much info now, I feel good and a bit overwhelmed. Lets hear what you all have to say too.
An absolute game changer! :-O

shallot

17 May 2021, 11:04

I hope this is a step towards finding a lube that makes good switches better, rather than just bad ones. Nice find!

kelvinhall05

17 May 2021, 13:54

Kinda weird thought but has anyone tried just rubbing a candle with an alps slider to get a super thin coating of "lube" on it?

User avatar
NeK

17 May 2021, 16:26

kelvinhall05 wrote:
17 May 2021, 13:54
Kinda weird thought but has anyone tried just rubbing a candle with an alps slider to get a super thin coating of "lube" on it?
Yeap, that's what I did :lol: It really works. But it is not exactly the same (of course) as the OG lube though, it felt very mushy. Probably needs a very very thin layer, and the paraffin oil of OG is probably of a different quality.

andresteare

17 May 2021, 16:41

NeK wrote:
17 May 2021, 16:26
kelvinhall05 wrote:
17 May 2021, 13:54
Kinda weird thought but has anyone tried just rubbing a candle with an alps slider to get a super thin coating of "lube" on it?
Yeap, that's what I did :lol: It really works. But it is not exactly the same (of course) as the OG lube though, it felt very mushy. Probably needs a very very thin layer, and the paraffin oil of OG is probably of a different quality.
It's funny, because the other day I say a guy on reddit that lives in a 3rd world country so he can't afford the shipping cost of getting Krytox, he came up with a solution which is cheapo silicone grease which is way too light and to make it thicker he mix it with with regular candle wax (which are paraffin based) and got promising results.
He use a wax-silicone mix, 50-50 for switches, and an something like 75-25 for stabs (based on volume), so maybe someone here could experimenting with somethin like 90-10.

You can get silicone grease in AliExpress for dirt cheap and wax candles in any supermarket.

User avatar
JP!

17 May 2021, 18:40

I've sort of wondered if paraffin wax could be applied in an application such as this. In the cycling community there is a niche practice of dipping bicycle chains into a molten pot of hot wax to achieve the cleanest and best performing bike chains. With a traditional wet lube a bike chain can become black with road grime after a single ride. :cry:

I don't know anything about looking at the specs but wonder if something like this could be applied to these Alps switches (does not require a heat like the crock pot method does as this uses alcohol as a carrier).
Here: https://silca.cc/collections/silent-tre ... chain-lube

User avatar
NeK

18 May 2021, 18:46

Here are my preliminary thoughts (of course I ask you to correct me if I'm wrong anywhere).

From what I have read on the net, Paraffin oil, which is the oil of the OG lube (TB 2581P), is simply mineral oil that is consistent only of heavier hydrocarbon molecules. Mineral oil is a by-product of petroleum (that is extracted during gasoline processing) and is composed of all kinds of hydrocarbon molecules of various forms and number of atoms, from as low as 1 atom to 50 or more.
Paraffin oil therefore, is simply a Mineral oil that has been refined, to have all low atom HC molecules removed from it (I think every HCs under 15-17 atoms are removed), so it contains only heavier HCs.

Now things start to make sense. :)

Polyalphaolefin (PAO) oils (such as those in NyoGel 767A and OKS 477 and others), are actually synthetic (meaning they have been man-made) hydrocarbon molecules.

Here is a quote from a very informative article:
"Polyalphaolefin is by far the most common major synthetic base oil used in industrial and automotive lubricants. It is a synthetic hydrocarbon (SHC) that mimics the best hydrocarbon (branched) structure found in mineral oils."
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Re ... lubricants

So, those greases that use PAO oils, are actually pretty similar to paraffin oil, and Especially if the PAO oil has HC molecules that are heavy (high atom number) then they are practically almost the same. And this is why PAO greases are working well with ALPS SKCM, because their base oil is essentially very similar to the Paraffin oil of OG lube. :!:

Besides that, PAO may be considered of even higher quality than paraffin, because they are entirely made of the best heavy HC molecules, as the above quote states. I guess Paraffin will include more structures of HC molecules like for instance closed looped ones, branched ones etc. Where PAO only includes the branched ones. This may be better for ALPS but it also may be worse. I guess this is a point that we need to find more info about.

Therefore, what remains as a noticeable difference between the OG and these new PAO greases, is their Thickener. The OG Lube uses Lithium Soap where NyoGel, OKS etc use Silica instead.

And here is the big clue: It is entirely possible that Lithium Soap may "bond" or adhere better to the plastics of SKCM parts than Silica. So I guess, if my hypothesis is right, then if we can find a heavy PAO oil grease thickened with Lithium Soap, it will be very similar to the OG lube, the TB2581P.

Having said that, of course, the most obvious next move, is to first try to find a lube with Lithium Soap thickener and Paraffin oil as base oil and test it.

dc76

20 May 2021, 03:37

NeK wrote:
18 May 2021, 18:46
Here are my preliminary thoughts (of course I ask you to correct me if I'm wrong anywhere).

From what I have read on the net, Paraffin oil, which is the oil of the OG lube (TB 2581P), is simply mineral oil that is consistent only of heavier hydrocarbon molecules. Mineral oil is a by-product of petroleum (that is extracted during gasoline processing) and is composed of all kinds of hydrocarbon molecules of various forms and number of atoms, from as low as 1 atom to 50 or more.
Paraffin oil therefore, is simply a Mineral oil that has been refined, to have all low atom HC molecules removed from it (I think every HCs under 15-17 atoms are removed), so it contains only heavier HCs.

Now things start to make sense. :)

Polyalphaolefin (PAO) oils (such as those in NyoGel 767A and OKS 477 and others), are actually synthetic (meaning they have been man-made) hydrocarbon molecules.

Here is a quote from a very informative article:
"Polyalphaolefin is by far the most common major synthetic base oil used in industrial and automotive lubricants. It is a synthetic hydrocarbon (SHC) that mimics the best hydrocarbon (branched) structure found in mineral oils."
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Re ... lubricants

So, those greases that use PAO oils, are actually pretty similar to paraffin oil, and Especially if the PAO oil has HC molecules that are heavy (high atom number) then they are practically almost the same. And this is why PAO greases are working well with ALPS SKCM, because their base oil is essentially very similar to the Paraffin oil of OG lube. :!:

Besides that, PAO may be considered of even higher quality than paraffin, because they are entirely made of the best heavy HC molecules, as the above quote states. I guess Paraffin will include more structures of HC molecules like for instance closed looped ones, branched ones etc. Where PAO only includes the branched ones. This may be better for ALPS but it also may be worse. I guess this is a point that we need to find more info about.

Therefore, what remains as a noticeable difference between the OG and these new PAO greases, is their Thickener. The OG Lube uses Lithium Soap where NyoGel, OKS etc use Silica instead.

And here is the big clue: It is entirely possible that Lithium Soap may "bond" or adhere better to the plastics of SKCM parts than Silica. So I guess, if my hypothesis is right, then if we can find a heavy PAO oil grease thickened with Lithium Soap, it will be very similar to the OG lube, the TB2581P.

Having said that, of course, the most obvious next move, is to first try to find a lube with Lithium Soap thickener and Paraffin oil as base oil and test it.
I wonder if something like a wax based bike chain lube would be viable. They are relatively low priced and available.

User avatar
:Dön:

20 May 2021, 05:41

Hello. I am a resident of Japan.
I have contacted them before and they have suggested TB2501S and TB2585G as alternatives, TB2581P is the oil type while TB2585G is the grease type. I'm not an expert so I don't know what these mean.
The 2585G is not sold individually and is not normally available for purchase.
If you have any questions for ThreeBond, I can communicate with them by email.
Last edited by :Dön: on 20 May 2021, 15:39, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TheInverseKey

20 May 2021, 07:12

Spoiler:
dc76 wrote:
20 May 2021, 03:37
NeK wrote:
18 May 2021, 18:46
Here are my preliminary thoughts (of course I ask you to correct me if I'm wrong anywhere).

From what I have read on the net, Paraffin oil, which is the oil of the OG lube (TB 2581P), is simply mineral oil that is consistent only of heavier hydrocarbon molecules. Mineral oil is a by-product of petroleum (that is extracted during gasoline processing) and is composed of all kinds of hydrocarbon molecules of various forms and number of atoms, from as low as 1 atom to 50 or more.
Paraffin oil therefore, is simply a Mineral oil that has been refined, to have all low atom HC molecules removed from it (I think every HCs under 15-17 atoms are removed), so it contains only heavier HCs.

Now things start to make sense. :)

Polyalphaolefin (PAO) oils (such as those in NyoGel 767A and OKS 477 and others), are actually synthetic (meaning they have been man-made) hydrocarbon molecules.

Here is a quote from a very informative article:
"Polyalphaolefin is by far the most common major synthetic base oil used in industrial and automotive lubricants. It is a synthetic hydrocarbon (SHC) that mimics the best hydrocarbon (branched) structure found in mineral oils."
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Re ... lubricants

So, those greases that use PAO oils, are actually pretty similar to paraffin oil, and Especially if the PAO oil has HC molecules that are heavy (high atom number) then they are practically almost the same. And this is why PAO greases are working well with ALPS SKCM, because their base oil is essentially very similar to the Paraffin oil of OG lube. :!:

Besides that, PAO may be considered of even higher quality than paraffin, because they are entirely made of the best heavy HC molecules, as the above quote states. I guess Paraffin will include more structures of HC molecules like for instance closed looped ones, branched ones etc. Where PAO only includes the branched ones. This may be better for ALPS but it also may be worse. I guess this is a point that we need to find more info about.

Therefore, what remains as a noticeable difference between the OG and these new PAO greases, is their Thickener. The OG Lube uses Lithium Soap where NyoGel, OKS etc use Silica instead.

And here is the big clue: It is entirely possible that Lithium Soap may "bond" or adhere better to the plastics of SKCM parts than Silica. So I guess, if my hypothesis is right, then if we can find a heavy PAO oil grease thickened with Lithium Soap, it will be very similar to the OG lube, the TB2581P.

Having said that, of course, the most obvious next move, is to first try to find a lube with Lithium Soap thickener and Paraffin oil as base oil and test it.
I wonder if something like a wax based bike chain lube would be viable. They are relatively low priced and available.
The go to for a long time was FinishLine Dry Lube. it works ok and I found that on simplified Alps it works great. That being said RO-59 is still being produced and I still prefer that as an Alps lube.

User avatar
NeK

24 May 2021, 21:56

Allright guys and girls, I have more news and some more conclusions/thoughts.

Here is a follow up of my communication with ThreeBond (I really get to like this company, they are so willing to help and actually put in the effort too, for an individual like me, just wow! kudos to them). I replied back with two different emails, because the first one was not answered for many days. In my second email I just wanted to ask about a technical important detail, so I thought I should sent a second email, asking just that and only that because I think it was even more important and hoped that they will quickly give an answer for a simple question like that. So here are the emails we exchanged:

My first reply:
Dear mr. XXXXXXX,

I am very pleased from your response. I greatly appreciate the trouble and effort that you and your colleagues spent, in order to provide me with this valuable information. Your support for your products and customers is excellent and unprecedented.

I would like to ask for one last thing, if that is not a big trouble for you, which would be very helpful for me.

Were all 3 products mixed into one lubricant and used inside the switches, or each one of them was used in different parts of the whole keyboard? It would be very helpful to know which one was actually used inside the switch. And also do you have any other general information about those 2 discontinued products? i.e. their product brochure? Their intented uses?

Thank you so very much, I really appreciate it.
XXXXXXXX
And here is my second reply, after waiting 3-4 days, asking about the temperature of the viscosity rating, which is essential but was missing in the excel file:
Dear mr. XXXXXX,

I just really need a very simple answer to a quick question:

In the excel file that you sent me, the "Viscosity" values, are measured at what temperature? 20c, 40c?
And here is his reply, which came almost the same day:
Dear Mr. XXXXXXXXXXX,

I am sorry for the delay in my reply.

First of all, about the viscosity, we measure it at 25℃.

Also, I couldn't know the exact fact for your previous question.
However, I believe that they usually use different products depending on the intended use.
We can supply customized products, so they probably won't mix and use in the Alps.

Also, since these products were more than 30 years old, we did not have any documentation left.

The previous data was also specially compiled from the database we had.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

Best regards,
XXXXXXXXX

ThreeBond Europe S.A.S
(for the record I replied with thanking him for the info and his trouble)

So now we have plenty of info, I would say almost sufficiently enough, to be able to find a similar lube to the OG one.

Lets analyze the information that we have.

We know from two independent sources, one from ALPS themselves, and one from ThreeBond themselves that the product they used for SKCM Switches of the 80s was the TB2581P. The information is extremely reliable, because it is cross-checked independently and the sources are directly from the 2 main manufacturers that were involved in making those ALPS keyboards and switches. Therefore we can safely consider that this is indeed the OG Lube, the holy grail, without any doubt.

There is one other thing that is confusing though. The specialist of ThreeBond stated 3 different products, instead of only one. One of them is indeed the OG Lube, but what are those other two? Where did ALPS used them on their keyboards? Did they used them on the switches too? Did they used a different lube for different parts of the switches? Or perhaps they used those two on different keyboard components, that are unrelated to the switches themselves?

Well I think I have the answer:

According to the second reply from the specialist of ThreeBond, he stated that there was no reason for ALPS to "mix" any of those 3 products together, because if they wanted something special, TB would custom-made it for them in the first place. That seems logical and it probably is true.

So where did ALPS use those two other products? Well, I thought and thought about it and then suddenly looking at the excel, it came to me hitting me like a rock on my head. The phrase that the specialist used to refer to the products was "Tangent Point Conductive Revival Agent", and that phrase was written on the top line of the excel file, like a title. That's a weird title to be honest and I googled it to see if it is mentioned anywhere in the net. There was no mention of that anywhere, which is even weirder. Looking at the product names and the fact that they are all part of the 2500 series, it occurred to me that he was actually referring to the 2500 series by that title. However on the ThreeBond website, on their brochures and on other material, they refer to the 2500 series as "Electrical Contact-Point Rejuvenating products". And there it clicked to me, that the specialist must have translated himself the japanese title they use. And he came up with "Tangent Point Conductive" instead of "Electrical Contact-Point" and "Revival Agent" instead of "Rejuvenating product". :D :D :D :lol:

So in simple words, he gave 3 products of the 2500 series that ALPS used, at some point in time, for manufacturing their switches and keyboards. And the fact that the TB2501L is still in production, hints that they were used in succession and not at the same time.

And here is another hint: TB2501L, that is still in production, is a SPRAY, and this is why in the excel file it states appearance "liquid". And the important thing is that it states the TB2581P as "liquid" too. Therefore this suggests that TB2581P was also a spray too, and that they probably did not use them together, but they had replaced it with the newer TB2501L, at some point (perhaps when they switched to the newer stem material?).

So if this is true and that TB2501L was not used for the early SKCM with the older material, then only the other 2 remaining products were used instead.

And now comes the part where I don't know: What was the role of the TB2511G? Was it used in succession from the TB2581P and then replaced by the TB2501L? Or was it used at the same timeframe but for other parts of the keyboard, besides the switches?

Given that ALPS only provided one product for the SKCM switches, the TB2581P and they didn't say anything about those other two, it suggests, at least to me, that the only lube they used at that timeframe, was the TB2581P.

phew, that was a lot to process but I think this is probably the case and that we should focus on only that product.

Any one else has any comments or can shed some light to this?

andresteare

25 May 2021, 03:01

My gut is telling me that Threebond's naming nomenclature indicates the format of the solution in the las letter, S=spray, L=liquid=oil, G=grease, P=putty?paste? I don't have much faith for 2501S and 2501L, they're probably too light. So probably we're stuck with 258X variants, which are hard to find, dang it.

This is all the info I could find on 2500 series:
2500 series.pdf
(61.78 KiB) Downloaded 91 times
BTW is there any chance of sharing your excel?

User avatar
:Dön:

25 May 2021, 05:24

Since I am Japanese, I contacted them.
They claimed that the TB2511G was not produced for Alps Electric or for keyboard switch lubrication. TB2511G was the green grease type.

User avatar
NeK

25 May 2021, 07:09

:Dön: wrote:
25 May 2021, 05:24
Since I am Japanese, I contacted them.
They claimed that the TB2511G was not produced for Alps Electric or for keyboard switch lubrication. TB2511G was the green grease type.
Interesting. Can you ask ThreeBond if TB2581P was a spray? And if there is any Technical Datasheet for it? Or any information about it at all?

Since you are Japanese, can you ask ALPS Japan about SKCM switches lubrication? Did they use the TB2581P for the them, and how? Did the used any other lubricant and how?

Note please that we are talking about the early SKCM switches of the 80s.

User avatar
NeK

25 May 2021, 07:12

andresteare wrote:
25 May 2021, 03:01
My gut is telling me that Threebond's naming nomenclature indicates the format of the solution in the las letter, S=spray, L=liquid=oil, G=grease, P=putty?paste? I don't have much faith for 2501S and 2501L, they're probably too light. So probably we're stuck with 258X variants, which are hard to find, dang it.

This is all the info I could find on 2500 series:

2500 series.pdf

BTW is there any chance of sharing your excel?
Of course I already did! It is in my previous post here.

User avatar
NeK

25 May 2021, 08:26

One more note: It turns out that "Paraffin Oil" is nothing more than just another term for refined "Mineral Oil". Which has even more names, like for instance as wikipedia states:
The name 'mineral oil' by itself is imprecise, having been used for many specific oils over the past few centuries. Other names, similarly imprecise, include 'white oil', 'paraffin oil', 'liquid paraffin' (a highly refined medical grade), paraffinum liquidum (Latin), and 'liquid petroleum'. Baby oil is a perfumed mineral oil.

Most often, mineral oil is a liquid by-product of refining crude oil to make gasoline and other petroleum products. This type of mineral oil is a transparent, colorless oil, composed mainly of alkanes[2] and cycloalkanes, related to petroleum jelly. It has a density of around 0.8–0.87 g/cm3 (0.029–0.031 lb/cu in).[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil

and
In lubricating oils, mineral oil is termed from groups 1 to 2 worldwide and group 3 in certain regions. This is because the high end of group 3 mineral lubricating oils are so pure that they exhibit properties similar to polyalphaolefin – PAO oils (group 4 synthetics).[5]
So Mineral Oil, Paraffin Oil and the synethic PAO Oil are all essentially the same thing, at least for the lubrication we are interesting in. They all consist of high-number-of-carbon-atoms hydrocarbon molecules.

So any lubricant with any of the above oils as base oil, will be essentially very very similar to what the TB2581P used.

What we are looking for to replace TB2581p is:

A lubricant with Lithium Soap as thickener, and a highly refined/high quality/high number of atoms Mineral Oil or a full synthetic (PAO) oil as base oil, having a viscosity of about 656 cSt at 25C and lastly having the "appearance" of a "luquid" meaning it should probably be a Spray, or an NLGI 1 and lower grease (which are very thin, more like liquids).

That's it, nothing special or mysterious. And from what I found looking around the net, there are like hundreds of greases with Lithium Soap and a Mineral Oil base. Most of them are thick though, with NLGI 2 rating and it is rare to find an NLGI 1 or lower. And the difficult part is to find one that is highly viscous because most of the regular ones are ~100 cSt, and we need something closer to 656 cSt.

In details, these are the specs of what we are looking for:
NLGI: 1
Thickener: Lithium soap
Base oil type: Highly refined Mineral Oil or synthetic PAO
Viscosity at 25C: 656 cST

However I did managed to find a few that match or are close enough!

Here they are:

KLUBER MICROLUBE GL 261, GL 262
klueber-microlube-gl-261-special-lubricating-grease-datasheet(1).pdf
Kluber GL 261
(120.89 KiB) Downloaded 81 times
NLGI: 1
Thickener: special lithium soap
Base oil type: Mineral
Viscosity at 25C: 862 cST
It comes as a spray too

SKF LGWM 1
0901d1968006348f-12055EN_LGWM1_tcm_12-31222.pdf
LGWM 1
(74.47 KiB) Downloaded 79 times
NLGI: 1
Thickener Lithium
Base oil type: Mineral
Viscosity at 25C: 560 cST

KLUBER BEM 41-141
Kluberplex BEM 41-141.pdf
Kluber BEM 41-141
(98.94 KiB) Downloaded 78 times
lithium complex soap
synthetic hydrocarbon oil, mineral oil
315 cSt

And don't forget that there are probably many others out there.
Last edited by NeK on 25 May 2021, 08:48, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NeK

25 May 2021, 08:46

I just found the SKF LGWM1 in 400g in a local store, which is pretty cheap at 15.70 euro incl. tax. I'm gonna grab one today as I go to work and test it asap. wish me luck :D

Post Reply

Return to “Keyboards”