Alps Lubricant FOUND!

[hellothere]

[obvious_joke] So, were you in denial? [/obvious_joke]

Well this keyboard, or at least its switches, was in denial. Myself I haven't been quite that far east; something about Albuquerque?

I heard they have splendid chicken.

Remember to turn left, too.

[hellothere]

Ok so I read through most of the thread, and my brain started to hurt. Rather badly. So someone, please sum it up for me please. Can I restore my SKCM Whites (linearmodded, to see how bad they are, 7-9 of 10, they bind very very litle) with an ultasonic cleaner, and some...magic lubricant we still havent quite found?

TL;dr Yes, sort of. A couple folks had some good experiences. A couple folks didn't. Below is a wordy summary of what I did.

============

1. The first rule of Fight Club Alps switches, and I got this from Chyros' videos, is probably still, "If they're working great for you, don't do anything."
2. I had some really bad pine whites in a really beat keyboard. I took everything apart, cleaned the case, ultrasonic-ed the entire switches (distilled water for the metal parts), then used Krytox or something else that's white-ish and cost $16+ for a little bottle (I can't find the bottle or order; sorry). After that, the keys were magnificent.
3. I ultrasonic-ed everything but the bottom housings -- i.e. I didn't desolder the switches -- on a salmon Alps keyboard that had some bindy keys and some keys that clicked on the upstroke. I then lubed both the top housings and sliders with Nyogel 760. After about a week, I could tell there was a noticeable improvement. There was more improvement over the next two weeks. They still feel great. As of this AM, I still had about 5 keys that were clicking on the upstroke. I cleaned the tactile leaves and added a bit more Nyogel to the top housing. They now don't click, so this is probably a 9 of 10 keyboard.
4. I tried Nyogel and Super Lube (PFTE) on a cream damped Alps keyboard and there was some improvement, but it took a few weeks. IMO, I think the Super Lube didn't help anything.
5. I have another cream damped Alps keyboard that was in pretty good shape, but I ultrasonic-everything, including the bottom housings, and tried the Super Lube, anyhow. There was enough of an improvement that I don't think I need to touch it further.
6. I have two orange Alps keyboards. They didn't need anything, as far as I can tell. I'm moving the switches to a different case, so I'll be able to tell more when that project's done.

I will again note that all the boards, except the one with pine white Alps, were pretty clean before I did anything. On the bottom housings that weren't removed, I cleaned with "compressed air."

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Are SKCM Pine and damped Ivory sliders lubed in any way, shape or form, out of the factory? I want to restore an AEK II that feels sprisingly stiff and sluggish, not scratchy, but a bit bindy. I can't really use it at the moment due to this small annoying issue. Also, they feel like they would clean up well in the ultrasonic cleaner.

I also have a few keys that won't register properly (SKCM White). Can I do something about them as well? Also, I know why I didn't really like white alps so far... They sound amazing, but the feel very brutal and stiff imho. Maybe I just need to adjust it... I'll clean up the housings after I got my ultrasonic, and see if anything changes... Hopefully yes, because I really seem to like the linearized version here.

I also have a bag of cr*p, again, from an SKCM White NTC board. Mostly they would be OK, but I don't have ANY good and useable switchplates anymore. Swapped the switches for unknown green tactile leafless tactile switch...stuff. They do feel good, but the tactile is on the very bottom. It feels good, but not my cup of tea. (Silently sayin', I'd trade them for any kind of SKCM switches...) At least the NTC works for now... They came from an Adesso aftermarket ADB keybaoard.

[hellothere]

Are SKCM Pine and damped Ivory sliders lubed in any way, shape or form, out of the factory? I want to restore an AEK II that feels sprisingly stiff and sluggish, not scratchy, but a bit bindy. I can't really use it at the moment due to this small annoying issue. Also, they feel like they would clean up well in the ultrasonic cleaner.

I currently have 4 AEK IIs. I haven't seen factory lube for cream. I'm pretty sure orange did. I'm not sure about blue, as I don't have one. My early pine white didn't, but that might be because they weren't in that good of shape. I didn't see any on my salmon.

I also have a bag of cr*p, again, from an SKCM White NTC board. Mostly they would be OK, but I don't have ANY good and useable switchplates anymore.

I've got a couple NTCs listed for sale, ATM, if you're looking for just something to mount stuff in. They work and have keycaps. I'll ~probably~ have a case/pcb/etc. ready in a couple weeks. You could also post on either WTB or WTT in the Marketplace area. I've had some decent luck, there. I'd recommend to wait until after Christmas, though. Hey, a very small package of mine has been stuck in the CONUS mail since November. You could also look through ebay and look for a cheap board that has your minimum requirements.

Swapped the switches for unknown green tactile leafless tactile switch...stuff. They do feel good, but the tactile is on the very bottom. It feels good, but not my cup of tea. (Silently sayin', I'd trade them for any kind of SKCM switches...) At least the NTC works for now... They came from an Adesso aftermarket ADB keybaoard.

I have an Adesso lying here. I bought it primarily because it was cheap and all the keys would fit a Mac keyboard, excepting the function keys. IIRC, it has green Xiang Min switches. It was all of $30, so I don't think you'd have folks trading SKCM switches for yours .

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Well that's the closest anyone has come to the throuth it seems... It was unidentified so far. The thing is, I'd like to swap them to SKCM. I mean, desolder them, and solder in some useable switches. I juts need around 15 more switchplates that either I can restore, or maybe I have to buy some....

[ntv242ver2]

Yeah i have had bad whites, lots actually. They are not factory lubed, sometimes they are exactly what you have been describing: brutally stiffs and binds.
I think there are a few factors attributing to it. Some alps do need breaking in, believe it or not. Of course, it could also be that the switch needs restoring, tho since it was not lubed in the past, by lubing them now you are improving it actually arent cha?

I would say ultrasonic cleaning all the parts except switch plates ( and bottom housing if you dont like desoldering). Then lube slider and/or sliding rails on top housing. Now by lubing, imo dry lube would do. This thread is about nyogel i get that but claiming that it is a magic lube that restore your alps fully or the best thing ever is so laughably stupid. People have been restoring alps to a great extent waaaay before the discovery of this lube.

@hellothere: yes blue alps were factory lubed, white were not iirc

[NeK]

SKCM whites, are not pre-lubricated, their stems are made from different polymer plastic that is, simple terms, lubricated by it-self. The thing is that they degenerate with age and especially with humidity and heat. So they actually need a good cleaning, therefore ultrasonic does wonders for them. However because they have developed asperities in their surface contacts, they bave lost their original smooth slide and feeling, but not entirely.

OTOH Blue SKCM were prelubed. When new, that lube in conjunction with their plastic being new without any asperities, they are even smoother and have unbelievaly good sliding feeling. But age, humidity and heat also deteriorates their plastic surface and ,most importantly, their lube also loses its properties. This makes them feel worse than detariorated whites, and the problem is that these must never be cleaned, as the lube will come off and then they will exhibit stick-slip as they slide, which is objectively worse than aged but cleaned whites.

Btw I am doing my own research about this as we speak, so hold on, maybe I come up with something. (Tribology is an interesting "science" but it definetely is not a mature or exact science)

My 2eurocents

[Lynx_Carpathica]

I have actually found some black stuff on the sliders. I might be able to find one that still has that. It was presumably lube. Skcm whites, still.

[mcmaxmcmc]

I have actually found some black stuff on the sliders. I might be able to find one that still has that. It was presumably lube. Skcm whites, still.

That's probably gunk or plastic dust; I don't think that's lube.

[ntv242ver2]

I have actually found some black stuff on the sliders. I might be able to find one that still has that. It was presumably lube. Skcm whites, still.

I am guessing that those black stuffs are where the switch plate contacts with the slider correct? That should be just stain, you can tell right away with prelubed alps slider, the lube were applied all over the slider

[NeK]

I concur, those dark spots are just stains from the metal leaf. Probably caused oxidation from age, and that left its mark on the stem.

Note: However, I do not completely exclude the possibility that it is actualy a lube just for this leaf <-> plastic stem contact. But it is highly unlikely.

[NeK]

To get back on topic, I want to report that I have studied a bit about Tribology (the discipline that studies friction and lubrication in general). I learned the very basics, enough to begin to understand, in a basic level, what the Technical Data Sheets of lubricants mean.

Armed with that knowledge, I realized that there has been a misunderstanding about comparing Nyogel 760G and TB2853G/TB1855. We have completely overlooked/missed 2 important factors, while comparing them.

1. The Base Oil of the lube
2. And the Viscosity of that base oil

I learned, that these 2 factors are the most basic and important for a lube and are detrimental on how it actually behaves. The rest of the specs, are only supplementary at best, by tackling smaller issues, for instance how long it will last, how it behaves in high or low temperatures etc. Whereas the base oil, is the heart of the lube - the actual lubricant itself - because it is the main ingredient that makes the lube perform the actual reduction of friction. There are numerous and various oils, each with different properties and behavior, that determine if they are suitable or not, for the lubrication of various types of materials. For instance, petroleum based oils, are not suitable for use with plastics as they will corrode them over time etc. The viscosity of the base oil, is also fundamentally important, as this is what makes a lube actually able to reduce the friction (make the two surfaces slide smooth).

Also especially for greases, there is one more factor that is important, the Thickener. By thickener, we mean an another substance that is mixed in the lube, that its role is to "wrap" the base oil and hold it from running off, and only release it when it gets under pressure (i.e. when a force is applied and friction happens), and then right afterwards to "suck it up" again like a sponge. The thickener is the ingredient that transforms the oil to a grease. And is also important, because it also has its own properties and factors. i.e. how stiff the grease will be, if is itself compatible for the materials to be used on and more.

Sadly, when a grease is said to being "silicone" it actually refers to the Thickener used and not - the more fundamentally important - Base Oil that actually does the lubrication. Which is very misleading, to say the least.
Because this makes the situation to sound that all "Silicone greases" to be the more or less the same, but in reality it actually can be worlds apart on how different they are. For instance you can have one Silicon grease, with a low viscosity mineral oil as the base oil, that will not lubricate the plastics at all - it will not reduce their friction - but on the contrary, it will deteriorate and chemically burn the plastics in no time. And on the other hand, have another "Silicone grease" that has a plastic friendly synthetic base oil instead, with proper viscosity for the materials, and with additional dry PTFE additives in it for even more friction reduction, that will never harm the plastics in any way, will stay put practically forever, will also protect the plastics against corrosion from the environment, it will also repel water and dust, and will actually make them slide smoothly like butter. Two exactly opposite things, but... with the same name. It is surprisingly baffling to me, how this has gone on - unpunished - for so many years in the lube market.

Anyway, getting back to the lubricants discussed, unfortunately the TB2853G Technical Data Sheet lacks any mention of the what its base oil is and how viscous it is. It could be anything! It could be a mineral oil for all I know. And what about its viscosity? Is it low? Is it extremely low? or Is it high? or even extremely high? We have no idea.

Therefore, we know the two most important factors for the lubes, are not compared, nor verified that are the same or similar between Nyogel 760G and TB2853G. In conclusion, Nyogel 760g may be completely differrent from the TB2853G that ALPS suggested us to use.

My opinion after my basic study, is that the original lube, probably had a synthetic - and plastic compatible - base oil, that had almost certainly* high viscosity. This is in accordance with the conclusions and recommendations of a published scientific paper researching the proper lubrication of two plastic (polymer) surfaces that slide against each other, and how to prevent stick-slip friction. And also on an old TB page that I found (https://web.archive.org/web/20030408143 ... 0list.html page archived on archive.org) it gives a viscosity of 550 P (unit "poise", measures viscosity) for the, then current in the series, TB2501S.
550poise is 50000 CentiStokes (cSt another unit of viscosity). From my research* probably the TB measurement is done at 25c. Nyogel 760G data sheet, states 213788.5 cSt at -30c, 400 cSt at 40c, and 39.4 cSt at 100c, considering the rate of change as temperature goes up, we can calculate that at 25c, using a very crude and probably not very accurate method, it should be about ~1550 cSt at 25c.

So based on the above, the viscosity of TB2501S is 50000 cST at 25c and the viscosity of Nyogel 760G is at merely 1550 cSt at 25c. Which means that the TB2501S is far more viscous (think honey vs water) than the Nyogel 760G.

Totally different.

* I'll expand on that in a later post.

[Polecat]

NeK, thank you for the detailed reply! I'm glad to see someone making the effort to really understand this subject.

In my opinion any kind of wet lubricant will attract dust and foreign matter and sooner or later destroy the switches. Dry lubricants were and still are available, but I seriously doubt there's anything that would restore plastic that has been damaged by extreme wear or heat and humidity. All I can think of is my imbecile boss at the hardware store picking out the cheapest best lube, then desperately spraying profuse amounts into every keyboard he owned (he doesn't own any, but he's the poster chimp for bad judgement, and I'm trying to make a point), destroying them all in the process. Then trying to sell them on ebay, conveniently not mentioning what he had done. Sure hope I'm wrong, but we'll find out soon enough...

[NeK]

NeK, thank you for the detailed reply! I'm glad to see someone making the effort to really understand this subject.

In my opinion any kind of wet lubricant will attract dust and foreign matter and sooner or later destroy the switches. Dry lubricants were and still are available, but I seriously doubt there's anything that would restore plastic that has been damaged by extreme wear or heat and humidity. All I can think of is my imbecile boss at the hardware store picking out the cheapest best lube, then desperately spraying profuse amounts into every keyboard he owned (he doesn't own any, but he's the poster chimp for bad judgement, and I'm trying to make a point), destroying them all in the process. Then trying to sell them on ebay, conveniently not mentioning what he had done. Sure hope I'm wrong, but we'll find out soon enough...

Thanks. I did a small update of that post with more info, so please re-read it. I still have more to say and clarify and some more information coming in, so I'll do a post later too.

As for the wet lubricant that you mention, I will say that your thinking is logical and it seems that a "wet" lube would not be right, but greases come in so many different forms and types that there are ones that are hydrophobic and repel liquids (water) and dust doesn't stick on them. From what I read, Nyogel is one of them and I am confident that the original ALPS lube was one of them also. I still need more research though to confirm this. However you are absolutely right about throwing in any random lube and call it a day, it is now very clear to me, that this method will never work. It's better to play the lotto.

[ntv242ver2]

Good analysis @Nek. Now the question what should i look for in my ptfe srpay to determine if it is mineral base or safe for plastic XD

[NeK]

Good analysis @Nek. Now the question what should i look for in my ptfe srpay to determine if it is mineral base or safe for plastic XD

good question! Most mainstream lubes state nothing about their true ingredients, so what you need to get is the Technical Data Sheet (TDS) of the specific spray model - if it even exists, which many do not have one as this is considered too advanced for mainstream - and hope that it states somewhere the "base oil". If it is Polyalphaolefin (PAO), or Silicone Oil, then it is safe for plastics. If it says "mineral oil" run away screaming. There is plenty of info in the web about base oil compatibility with all kinds of plastics. Remember that ALPS housings are ABS and that the stems are some kind of a polymer nylon.

Also beware of any additives that they add in (for instance, graphite, or copper) for better friction reduction. Graphite and copper is abrasive, so it probably will cut away the plastics and wear them out over time. (don't know by how much, maybe it will take thousands of years to even make any difference, but that's another story)

[Polecat]

Thanks. I did a small update of that post with more info, so please re-read it. I still have more to say and clarify and some more information coming in, so I'll do a post later too.

As for the wet lubricant that you mention, I will say that your thinking is logical and it seems that a "wet" lube would not be right, but greases come in so many different forms and types that there are ones that are hydrophobic and repel liquids (water) and dust doesn't stick on them. From what I read, Nyogel is one of them and I am confident that the original ALPS lube was one of them also. I still need more research though to confirm this. However you are absolutely right about throwing in any random lube and call it a day, it is now very clear to me, that this method will never work. It's better to play the lotto.

Interesting explanation of the base oil, and how "inert silicone" lube can destroy plastics. Neat trick if they can make a grease that will stay on a surface but that dust and dirt won't stick to. I'm still betting that Alps used a dry lube of some sort, but that's purely a guess at this point.

Another problem with graphite and copper (or any metal) is that anything conductive will affect the switch electrically if it gets into the contacts, which in this case is the switchplate.

[hellothere]

haha Nyogel 760G go brrrrr ...

Anyhow, for me, I just look at Nyogel as, "This was suggested. I tried it. It worked." I'm not really worried if the lube is the one used on original Alps switches. If all the above leads to finding a better solution than Nyogel 760, though, I'm interested.

The reason I went with Super Lube on my first time or two around is because I read a very long post on r/MK where a whole slew of lubricants were tested and Super Lube was the best price/performance: Krytox and Tribosys are about $9 for 0.5ml, Nyogel is $20 for 50g ("50ml," if Nyogel was being sold as a liquid), and Super Lube (PTFE) is $4 for 118ml (4oz).

I did a somewhat quick Google trip. There is a dry lubricant that's supposed to be safe for "most" plastics, called B'laster (PTFE). 29ml, $4.50. If someone else wants to try it first and tell me if it melts their switches or not, I'm interested.

[NeK]

Interesting explanation of the base oil, and how "inert silicone" lube can destroy plastics. Neat trick if they can make a grease that will stay on a surface but that dust and dirt won't stick to. I'm still betting that Alps used a dry lube of some sort, but that's purely a guess at this point.

Well, neither have I concluded if the original lube was dry or not. I just popped open a "virgin" (never opened before) orange SKCM switch and shot a video of the stem and the lube on it and also showing how I smear it around using the tip of a tweezer. Note that I didn't put any pressure at all, just lightly slide it around the surface, notice how the lube gets smeared.

From the way the lube appears, tacked on the surface like that, and how it has this dark color, suggests and makes me think that it is in fact a very thin film of a grease lube. That dark color is probably from the thickener that has aged, and also considering the way the lube gets smeared with the tip and gets "rejuvenated" again. However, I can't rule out the possibility that it is in fact a film of dry lube, for the simple reason that I simply I don't know how that is supposed to look and behave.

Anyway I hope the above video is helpful somehow.

Another problem with graphite and copper (or any metal) is that anything conductive will affect the switch electrically if it gets into the contacts, which in this case is the switchplate.

Yeap, I'm pretty sure they will never have used any kind of those. So if it actually is a dry lubricant, then we are talking about a chemical that is inert, like PTFE. However I think that PTFE was not even invented at 1985 yet. So what could it be?

A good question therefore is: Where there dry lubricants, that were plastic safe and available on 1985?

[Polecat]

Well, neither have I concluded if the original lube was dry or not. I just popped open a "virgin" (never opened before) orange SKCM switch and shot a video of the stem and the lube on it and also showing how I smear it around using the tip of a tweezer. Note that I didn't put any pressure at all, just lightly slide it around the surface, notice how the lube gets smeared.

From the way the lube appears, tacked on the surface like that, and how it has this dark color, suggests and makes me think that it is in fact a very thin film of a grease lube. That dark color is probably from the thickener that has aged, and also considering the way the lube gets smeared with the tip and gets "rejuvenated" again. However, I can't rule out the possibility that it is in fact a film of dry lube, for the simple reason that I simply I don't know how that is supposed to look and behave.

Anyway I hope the above video is helpful somehow.

Yeap, I'm pretty sure they will never have used any kind of those. So if it actually is a dry lubricant, then we are talking about a chemical that is inert, like PTFE. However I think that PTFE was not even invented at 1985 yet. So what could it be?

A good question therefore is: Where there dry lubricants, that were plastic safe and available on 1985?

Interesting, I'm not sure if any of my early Alps switches were factory lubed, but that's one of the things I can check. I'd like to see this stuff up close. I'm a lot more comfortable soldering and unsoldering Alps switches than I am taking them apart, but I have done that in the past.

There were definitely TFE/PTFE lubes back in the '80s for electronic work. GC (General Cement) was one of the brands I used. I believe they sold four aerosol spray products at that time; the PTFE was one of the four and came in a red can. It was used to lube rotary TV tuners and controls, and was colorless and odorless once the propellant evaporated. Definitely not dark-colored.

Have you considered the possibility that Alps used a wax-based lube? Just throwing that out as another possibility.

edit: wikipedia says PTFE was discovered by Dupont in 1938! (just a big word for Teflon)

[E3E]

Remember that ALPS housings are ABS and that the stems are some kind of a polymer nylon.

I really like the amount of information in this discussion, especially by people with expertise and experience in this area, so with that as a disclaimer, all I want to add is this:

Alps top housings are not ABS; they will not react at all to acetone. I believe they are a type of nylon if I were to guess.

[Polecat]

I really like the amount of information in this discussion, especially by people with expertise and experience in this area, so with that as a disclaimer, all I want to add is this:

Alps top housings are not ABS; they will not react at all to acetone. I believe they are a type of nylon if I were to guess.

Both early and late SKCM?

[NeK]

Remember that ALPS housings are ABS and that the stems are some kind of a polymer nylon.

I really like the amount of information in this discussion, especially by people with expertise and experience in this area, so with that as a disclaimer, all I want to add is this:

Alps top housings are not ABS; they will not react at all to acetone. I believe they are a type of nylon if I were to guess.

Thank you for correcting me in this. I just read it, somewhere in some thread here that they were ABS, and took it as granted.

So I guess it could be anything... as I know almost nothing about plastics. I think though that it would be helpful to find out exactly what materials are both the housings and the stems made of.

[NeK]

Interesting, I'm not sure if any of my early Alps switches were factory lubed, but that's one of the things I can check. I'd like to see this stuff up close. I'm a lot more comfortable soldering and unsoldering Alps switches than I am taking them apart, but I have done that in the past.

That would be really helpful. Opening an ALPS switch is a pure joy! It's IMO one of the best features they have, because it's so easy! Really, it is such a marvelous design, I highly praise those that did it, they must have been exceptional engineers, which really loved what they were doing.

I plan to make a video on the other thread, showing my methos that I learned to open them very quickly and without doing any damage to them. I can do it with my eyes closed.

There were definitely TFE/PTFE lubes back in the '80s for electronic work. GC (General Cement) was one of the brands I used. I believe they sold four aerosol spray products at that time; the PTFE was one of the four and came in a red can. It was used to lube rotary TV tuners and controls, and was colorless and odorless once the propellant evaporated. Definitely not dark-colored.

Have you considered the possibility that Alps used a wax-based lube? Just throwing that out as another possibility.

edit: wikipedia says PTFE was discovered by Dupont in 1938! (just a big word for Teflon)

Yeah, you are right, PTFE is actually very old. But when was dry PTFE invented and used as a lubricant though? I havent heard of dry lube at all, before these recent years, to be honest.

Also wax seems a good candidate, I assume we refer to paraffin. I know nothing about that, however a sufficiently stiff grease (NLGI 3+) should be almost the same as a soft wax. So who knows...

[Polecat]

That would be really helpful. Opening an ALPS switch is a pure joy! It's IMO one of the best features they have, because it's so easy! Really, it is such a marvelous design, I highly praise those that did it, they must have been exceptional engineers, which really loved what they were doing.

I plan to make a video on the other thread, showing my methos that I learned to open them very quickly and without doing any damage to them. I can do it with my eyes closed.

Yeah, you are right, PTFE is actually very old. But when was dry PTFE invented and used as a lubricant though? I havent heard of dry lube at all, before these recent years, to be honest.

Also wax seems a good candidate, I assume we refer to paraffin. I know nothing about that, however a sufficiently stiff grease (NLGI 3+) should be almost the same as a soft wax. So who knows...

A bit of casual reading turned up Nylon compounds with dry lube included as part of the plastic. Nylatron is one trade name. There are dozens or possibly hundreds or even thousands of different formulations:

https://www.alro.com/divplastics/Plasti ... amily.aspx

Presumably other plastics have a similar story.

Teflon is by nature "dry", and becomes "wet" only when it's included in an oil or grease mixture.

Wax (paraffin) is a complex organic compound that's inert and a wax coating has lubricating properties and can resist water and dirt/dust.

There has been talk here in the past about testing original Alps lube to determine what they used. But I don't remember anyone posting any followups on this. Heck, we still don't know for sure what kind of plastic(s) they used (do we?).

I'm actually ok taking Alps switches apart. It's putting them back together again that really makes me crazy.

I'm no expert on any of this. I just did some very preliminary reading. But the idea of "something-in-a-can" that will magically fix bad switches is becoming more unlikely by the minute.

[NeK]

Something-in-a-can is surely out of the question, IMHO. Especially for those switches which their stems have been corroded. Finding the right lube will be one of the ingredients for use with a restoration process, that will certainly include opening, cleaning, possibly polishing any obvious corrosion/roughness of the stems and then applying the lube.

That's not really bad, so don't let that stop you, it means that we will finally have a way to actually restore them to their original condition. That's a big thing.

Currently, we have only subjective claims, based on snake oil and placebo. That is a way worse situation that distorts the whole ALPS "community".

Now about nylatron, this is probably what they used on the later iteration of the stems (white pines) which they don't come with any lube. This is evident from the fact that whites are much more slippery compared to blues/oranges (with their lube cleaned off).

The housing on the other hand, remained the same as far as I know. I don't think they ever changed its material at all. Whatever that was, nylon, POM, or whatever else, it is certain that it had no lubricant mixed in, because they are not slippery. So there is nothing to worry about them. The focus should be on the stems, and only on them.

As for testing the lube - assuming analyzing the chemical ingredients in a lab - will just be overkill. It's not needed really. With a small bit of research we can, and dare I say we already have, narrow down the posible lube types. There aren't that many after all that fit the requirements, especially knowing some restrictions on what was known and used back in '85.

So lets say for instance the testing reveals a mixture of silica and silicone. So that will mean that they used a grease with silica thickener and silicone oil as the base oil. Now what? We will stil won't know the viscosity of the base oil, or the stiffness of the thickener and we should then use trial and error to try out various greases with different viscosities and thickener stiffness, unti we finally find one that match the original.

However we can arrive at the same result, without the chemical analysis, just by using our knowledge, observation of new-like switches and our logic. Again using trial and error ee will find the right base oil, its viscosity and the right thickener. There aren't that many possible combinations after all.

I now doubt that it was pure dry lube. Because that would mean no other substance mixed in, and dry lube can only "stick" to the surface's crevices, purely by getting inside them and stay there. As my video shows this is definately not the case. The lube was on top of the surface, not inside it, sticked on to it. This highly suggests a wet substance of some kind.

I tried dry graphite and dry tugsten disulfide. It is a completely different thing. 99% just comes off by just shaking the stem. The remaining 1% is microscopically stuck inside the micro crevices, and it looksbcompletely different from what is shown in the video I posted.

So my bet is a grease with a thickener, stiff enough like soft wax that sticks on to the surface and has a high viscosity oil, that lubes and also dampens the sliding and movement.

Back at that age, dampening greases were all the craze, they were used on many rotary dials, especially japanese ones, to make them feel very high quality as uou rotated them. They probably used it on the switches too, to dampen them and feel like velvet. Just like new-like ALPS are!

[Polecat]

The housing on the other hand, remained the same as far as I know. I don't think they ever changed its material at all. Whatever that was, nylon, POM, or whatever else, it is certain that it had no lubricant mixed in, because they are not slippery. So there is nothing to worry about them. The focus should be on the stems, and only on them.

This quote from the wiki suggests at least some pine Alps switches might have had a different housing material:

"Some switches around the end of the 80s had dark grey-blue upper shells instead of black; the timeframe for this remains uncertain, but SKCM Orange, White and Cream Damped are known to be amongst those affected"

I tried dry graphite and dry tugsten disulfide. It is a completely different thing. 99% just comes off by just shaking the stem. The remaining 1% is microscopically stuck inside the micro crevices, and it looksbcompletely different from what is shown in the video I posted.

Graphite and molybdenum disulphide, and presumably tungsten disulphide, are conductive, so those materials would affect the switches electrically sooner or later.

Back at that age, dampening greases were all the craze, they were used on many rotary dials, especially japanese ones, to make them feel very high quality as uou rotated them. They probably used it on the switches too, to dampen them and feel like velvet. Just like new-like ALPS are!

Alps in particular was known for those "smooth" controls, so it's no surprise that they would put the same effort into making their switches feel nice.

edit: I looked up tungsten disulphide, and indeed it's a semiconductor like graphite and molybdenum disulphide.

[NeK]

So there indeed are waxes for lubrication, just got across this one:

Lubricating Wax
https://www.klueber.com/global/en/produ ... 295/10388/

It is for industrial use though, but it claims that it lubricates well and it is great against dust and dirt. I will keep an eye on those, maybe we can find something similar (and cheap) to try it out.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

was the thing that you sraped off waxy?
I presume it was an oragne slider in the video

[NeK]

I didnt scrap it off; that's the point of the video. I smeared it in place, just like how you smear butter on a surface - transitioning from a semi-solid to a semi-fluid state. I believe that wax doesnt behave like that - it stays solid/semi-solid. Also powder dry lubricants that I tried (not shown in the video) do not behave like that.

However, some of it did get "scraped off". Part of the substance turned into a small white particle (about the size of a very thin grain of salt) and stuck on the tweezer. I haven't yet figured out what that means.

The above fact destroys my theory (my guess), which I analyze later on and this is where I have gotten stuck at the moment.

And yes indeed, the stem is an Orange SKCM.

To summarize, I believe that I can safely say, that it is not a dry powder lubricant (i.e. graphite, molybdenum, tungsten sulfide, PTFE etc.) because, those get "blended" into the surface, by filling its microscopically small asperities, and do not stay on top of it, as they are completely dry and cannot stick on it, (they fall off).

In the video, however, it is clear that the substance is concetrated, darkened and, most importantly, stuck on top of the surface. And also gets smeared around (except for the aforementioned exception) into a liquid that stays on top of the surface.

My guess therefore, is that the original lubricant could only be a "wet" one i.e. grease or sprayed "dry PTFE" - which is not really dry, but is actually a grease-like thin film holding dry PTFE particles - and finally a pure oil. I highly doubt about the last one though, because oil just runs off, no matter how viscous it is, in almost no time. This is why I guess that a thickener with a base oil, is probably the best candidate (i.e. grease) and maybe even a thickener that holds solid PTFE particles ("dry PTFE" film).

I have a feeling that this "dry PTFE film" is just marketing gimmick for a sprayed on grease that holds solid PTFE particles. Take for instance the popular WD40 Dry PTFE spray, or the Finish Line one.

I focus on dry PTFE, because I haven't found any other dry lubricant that is plastic safe and non conductive. The major ones according to wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_lubricant
Emphasis mine

Dry lubricants or solid lubricants are materials that, despite being in the solid phase, are able to reduce friction between two surfaces sliding against each other without the need for a liquid oil medium.

In fact, there are some solids with non-lamellar structures that function well as dry lubricants in some applications. These include certain soft metals (indium, lead, silver, tin), polytetrafluroethylene, some solid oxides, rare-earth fluorides, and even diamond.

polytetrafluroethylene is PTFE.

It continues on to state that the most common solid lubricants are:
Graphite. Molybdenum disulfide. Hexagonal boron nitride. Tungsten disulfide.

Out of all of them, only PTFE is plastic safe and non conductive, and I am pretty confident that ALPS would never use anything that is not plastic safe and non conductive.