Model F XT Spewing Junk on hid_listen using Soarer's Converter

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Pastenseolith

29 Jun 2020, 19:33

Hello! I created a thread two days ago talking about the badge on my Model F I was restoring. I have finished the restore since then, but have ran into some issues. I have a Soarer's Converter made by "orihalcon" on eBay. I have bought from him the past, never had a bad experience (nor do I believe this is bad either.) I have plugged in everything, did the space bar thing, all of the tabs are on tight, the screws are in good, the cable is in snug, but I have been slam dunked with some errors from Converter. This is the full output from the converter. Keep in mind, if I plug in the Model F first into the converter and then the converter into the computer, it won't work. I have tried on both Linux and Windows (on two separate machines) and get the same errors. I have to plug in the converter first, wait for it to be recognized by hid_listen, then plug in the model F:

Code: Select all

Waiting for device:
Listening:
wEE

remaining: FFFC


Keyboard ID: 0000
Code Set: 1
Mode: PC/XT


r8F r48 +1A rF0 R06 r3C +2B R06 r3E r1E rF0 +1E r7F r07 +04 R06 R06 rC7 R06 r9F R06 rA9 R06 R06 rFC +2B R06 R06 r3E +04 rF1 +07 r00 r1F -2B R06 rF8 +2B R06 r8F +1F rF8 +3D r8F +14 r3C r11 +B6 R06 r08 rF8 r10 +3B R06 rFA +00 R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 r02 +5F R06 rFA R06 R06 r3C +92 R06 rFF R06 rFC -92 r88 r00 -04 r10 rCF +85 R06 r71 r1E R06 R06 rE3 +24 R06 R06 r8F rF4 R06 r0F r04 R06 R06 r1E +C0 r78 R06 r07 rF1 +E2 R06 R06 r81 R06 rE0 +3F r71 +36 r07 +B1 rF8 +04 rF1 R06 rE0 +1F r3C +16 R06 r3F -E2 rF0 +5F rE0 +40 r7C +2B R06 R06 r8E R06 r78 +6B r3C -2B rFC R06 R06 rE2 R06 R06 r07 +E2 R06 r00 r07 +28 r78 +05 R06 r8E +33 R06 R06 rF8 R06 r4F +92 R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 r83 r3C +3B r3F r7D +2B R06 rC7 r3C +23 R06 R06 R06 r3F +3D R06 R06 r3F r0F -2B R06 r8F R06 R06 r02 r3C +2B r7F R06 r8E rF8 +2F R06 rFE -92 R06 R06 R06 rCF r1C R06 rE3 +92 rDF r4F r0E -04 rA7 -92 r1C +00 r7F +3E r0E +92 r0F +2A r48 R06 r18 rF0 R06 r1E r4F r38 r8E r7F rFF R06 R06 R06 r07 -5F r03 +43 rC7 +8C r00 R06 r3F -92 r47 +70 rFE +59 r3C +61 rF1 r0F +0D R06 rFA +1E R06 R06 R06 r07 r03 r79 +06 R06 r38 +04 R06 r1C +12 r1F r79 rFF +C0 r71 -3E r67 -3F R06 r38 +25 R06 R06 r1C +B9 R06 r07 R06 R06 r8A r00 r78 -2B r07 -25 r71 R06 r0E R06 rFF rFF R06 R06 rF8 +2B r78 R06 r4F r2E +B1 rFC R06 rC9 R06 R06 rC9 +61 r4F R06 rCF R06 R06 R06 rFF +B6 R06 rBC +8A R06 R06 r3F +23 rE3 +2A rCF rE2 R06 r07 R06 rA7 R06 rC7 rFF +89 r1E r52 +92 rFC R06 r07 R06 rC1 +3B r27 R06 R06 R06 R06 r03 +BC rE2 +20 R06 R06 r27 R06 R06 R06 rC1 +04 r07 +E2 rF1 rC0 R06 R06 R06 r4E -B6 rC7 r48 +20 R06 r4D rC7 +23 r0E r6C +04 r8E R06 R06 R06 r07 R06 r1C r9E rF9 +92 rFA -92 rE5 R06 r0E +92 rF9 -92 R06 R06 R06 R06 r3C R06 R06 r49 +6B r78 R06 rFF +0B rCF rC7 rF8 +33 R06 R06 rF3 R06 R06 R06 r0E R06 r27 +40 r3C +0A r3F +5F R06 rC9 +C0 R06 r0E +89 rC0 rF3 +00 R06 r8E R06 r79 -00 rBC r07 R06 r38 -89 rE1 +60 R06 r3C +45 rFC +92 r38 +28 r0E R06 r38 R06 rFC -5F R06 R06 rC7 +E2 R06 r78 r03 R06 r1C +8A R06 rCF R06 r3C r9E r87 +B1 r79 -28 r63 +00 r8F r8F +61 rF8 +2B R06 R06 R06 rE0 R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 r9E R06 R06 R06 rF0 R06 R06 R06 rCF +28 R06 R06 r90 R06 R06 rE3 r3C R06 R06 R06 r7F R06 r67 r78 +53 r1E rE2 +3E R06 R06 R06 r9E R06 rF6 +3B r9C -3E R06 R06 R06 r07 +C0 R06 r00 +E2 R06 r9C r03 +2A R06 r38 r40 r8F +23 rC7 +04 r99 r3C +09 R06 R06 R06 R06 rFA -2A R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 rFE rFF R06 r03 +3C r19 -04 rBC -23 R06 r0F +B3 r60 R06 R06 R06 R06 rFB -3B r5C r4F r1E r7F R06 R06 r1C r0E +00 R06 r78 +BA R06 rE2 +92 r3C rF1 R06 R06 R06 r90 -92 R06 rE2 -E2 rC0 R06 R06 R06 r3C +12 r88 -12 rF2 R06 rFE R06 R06 r4E R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 r0F rFE +E2 R06 r9E rC3 +00 R06 r00 +92 R06 rCF +61 rFE R06 R06 R06 r9E +3E rF8 R06 R06 R06 r71 +68 R06 R06 r8E r07 R06 r4F +3C r27 r00 +5F r03 -92 rFF +28 R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 r67 +E2 r81 -00 R06 r9E +3B rFF R06 R06 R06 r8E R06 rE3 +92 r07 +12 rF8 r8E R06 R06 R06 R06 r3F R06 R06 R06 R06 r3C R06 R06 R06 r71 +28 rCE +3B r07 +92 rA8 +04 R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 R06 rFF rFF R05
I have located the following errors from this so far (according to the Soarer docs:)
R05 - timeout - started receiving clock from the board, but didn't receive enough for a full code
R06 - start bit - read a start bit, but it was incorrect

This output was from my Windows, I would use Linux for the output but for some reason when I plug in my keyboard, the mouse kicks the bucket. This is what my keyboard looks like (please see attachments.) The screw holding the PCB to the metal seems to be in quite well. When testing I did have the keyboard outside of the case, so the grounding part was not attached to the case screws, I don't know if that would prove to be an issue. I took as high definition photos of the PCB as I could, if you need a better look at a certain part please ask. I don't have a multi meter on me to check for continuity on the board and on the cable, but I can get one later to check if something obvious isn't seen.
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Last edited by Pastenseolith on 30 Jun 2020, 21:07, edited 1 time in total.

kmnov2017

29 Jun 2020, 20:21

Sounds like a typical ground issue

User avatar
Pastenseolith

29 Jun 2020, 20:35

Sounds like a typical ground issue
Do you attach ground here? If so, then that would have to be an issue with ground on the internal XT cable itself or the converters ground. What do you think?
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User avatar
Weezer

29 Jun 2020, 20:43

The ground is that bolt in the center of the board where the shiny back plate extends to the PCB. You have a close up of it in your fifth pic. Make sure that's tightened like a mug.

Check with another cable if you can. You can get the pinout online and tape or somehow affix a spare ps/2 cable to the correct pins. It's possible you have a bad ground or other short there in the cable.

User avatar
Pastenseolith

29 Jun 2020, 20:55

The ground is that bolt in the center of the board where the shiny back plate extends to the PCB. You have a close up of it in your fifth pic. Make sure that's tightened like a mug.
Forgive my ignorance if what I am doing is wrong, I went off of both assumptions with little progress. I first just tightened that as tight as I could get it (without feeling like I was going to destroy the PCB) and still, same jarbled mess. Next, I attached that ground wire from the cable to that screw and tried it, and still, the same problem.
Check with another cable if you can. You can get the pinout online and tape or somehow affix a spare ps/2 cable to the correct pins. It's possible you have a bad ground or other short there in the cable.
This uses XT, not PS/2 and sadly I don't have a spare of either. I can get a multimeter and check if the cable has a short if you would like. I don't know how to check for a bad ground though.

User avatar
Weezer

29 Jun 2020, 21:29

Pastenseolith wrote:
29 Jun 2020, 20:55
The ground is that bolt in the center of the board where the shiny back plate extends to the PCB. You have a close up of it in your fifth pic. Make sure that's tightened like a mug.
Forgive my ignorance if what I am doing is wrong, I went off of both assumptions with little progress. I first just tightened that as tight as I could get it (without feeling like I was going to destroy the PCB) and still, same jarbled mess. Next, I attached that ground wire from the cable to that screw and tried it, and still, the same problem.
Check with another cable if you can. You can get the pinout online and tape or somehow affix a spare ps/2 cable to the correct pins. It's possible you have a bad ground or other short there in the cable.
This uses XT, not PS/2 and sadly I don't have a spare of either. I can get a multimeter and check if the cable has a short if you would like. I don't know how to check for a bad ground though.
Yeah I believe the ground from the cable attaches to that bolt if my memory serves. The case can't act as a ground because it's plastic.

Yeah try to perform a continuity test using a multimeter.

PC/XT refers to the protocol that uses the set 1 scancode set. The 5 pin DIN cable that came with that 5150 keyboard can be replaced with a ps/2 cable because it has the same amount of pins. If you have a passive Ps/2 to 5 pin DIN adapter you can use it with your 5 pin DIN soarers converter which can interpret all three IBM scancode sets to the USB scancode set. I recommended the PS/2 cable because if the cord is the issue ps/2 cables are easy to come by and cheap

User avatar
Pastenseolith

29 Jun 2020, 22:23

Yeah I believe the ground from the cable attaches to that bolt if my memory serves. The case can't act as a ground because it's plastic.
I see, when I took it apart I recall it being attached to the case with the screw, but that does make a lot more sense if it was that on the PCB.
Yeah try to perform a continuity test using a multimeter.
Alright that sounds good, I will bump this when I get the results from that. I will check continuity on both the internal cable and the Soarer's Converter just incase that is it, but I think it is the internal cable.
PC/XT refers to the protocol that uses the set 1 scancode set. The 5 pin DIN cable that came with that 5150 keyboard can be replaced with a ps/2 cable because it has the same amount of pins. If you have a passive Ps/2 to 5 pin DIN adapter you can use it with your 5 pin DIN soarers converter which can interpret all three IBM scancode sets to the USB scancode set. I recommended the PS/2 cable because if the cord is the issue ps/2 cables are easy to come by and cheap
Yeah I see now, you mentioned that I should get a passive PS/2 to 5 pin DIN cable. The Model F is internal, using what seems to be a 7x2 pin connector, where only 4 are used + ground. These connector specs are seen here:
Image

Would I need to solder directly to the connector as I don't believe 7x2 to DIN connectors are made anymore? At that point, why not just buy a DIN cable, open it up, and then solder to the connector. Heck, making an internal Soarer's Convert may be advantageous.
What I am getting at is that I don't see how a PS/2 to DIN connector would help here? Am I mistaken? Getting something like this may be the best option, just cut one side and solder properly. The only issue I can see is that it doesn't support PE, though that may not be an issue. Please correct me if I am wrong though, as more often than not I am ;P

User avatar
Weezer

29 Jun 2020, 22:49

Sorry in my first response to you I got a little ahead of myself. Do what I'm saying ONLY if the issue is found to be with the cable after the continuity test. What I meant was that you can harvest the cable from say a $1 PS/2 mouse and then snip the connectors off the end of the cable, and then solder the connectors onto the PS/2 cable. If you match the clock, data, GND and V using the bottom part of that chart you can create a new working cable on the cheap. I believe the pinout for the 7x2 connector can be found online as well. Again this is is only a good solution if the issue is determined to be the cable.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

30 Jun 2020, 02:30

I thought that the mouse cable only has 3 wires.

edit - I guess not. It seems like they are wired differently somehow.

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Pastenseolith

30 Jun 2020, 03:28

Sorry in my first response to you I got a little ahead of myself. Do what I'm saying ONLY if the issue is found to be with the cable after the continuity test. What I meant was that you can harvest the cable from say a $1 PS/2 mouse and then snip the connectors off the end of the cable, and then solder the connectors onto the PS/2 cable. If you match the clock, data, GND and V using the bottom part of that chart you can create a new working cable on the cheap. I believe the pinout for the 7x2 connector can be found online as well. Again this is is only a good solution if the issue is determined to be the cable.
Yeah that makes a lot more sense thank you! I plan on getting a new fuse for my multimeter tomorrow, it blew out some time ago haha.
I thought that the mouse cable only has 3 wires.

edit - I guess not. It seems like they are wired differently somehow.
I don't know what you mean by "mouse cable," I am not all in with the terminology so forgive me.

JBert

30 Jun 2020, 14:10

Why do you connect the model F to the converter after the converter is already plugged into the computer? The converter is not built for that, you should connect the USB plug to the computer when the keyboard is already attached.

The XT keyboard is not hot-pluggable and the converter may fail to properly detect the type of keyboard when nothing is connected (see mode 1, 2, or 3).

User avatar
Pastenseolith

30 Jun 2020, 16:38

Why do you connect the model F to the converter after the converter is already plugged into the computer? The converter is not built for that, you should connect the USB plug to the computer when the keyboard is already attached.
It doesn't recognize anything otherwise, it only responds if I plug in USB first then keyboard. If I do the keyboard first then USB in the computer, it doesn't come up in hid_listen. If I plug in the converter itself though, it does recognize the converter, then I plug in the keyboard.
The XT keyboard is not hot-pluggable and the converter may fail to properly detect the type of keyboard when nothing is connected (see mode 1, 2, or 3).
Indeed it is not, but I have noticed that it defaults to set 1/mode 1, which is the XT keyboards layout, so at least I know it interpreting the data properly, though it may be messed up. I don't know how to get it to recognize the converter with the keyboard though.

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Weezer

30 Jun 2020, 17:47

What happens if you plug everything in while the computer is off and then turn on the computer? <- just curious

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Pastenseolith

30 Jun 2020, 21:04

What happens if you plug everything in while the computer is off and then turn on the computer? <- just curious
Good idea, sadly still no results. This did lead me to check everything with a fresh mind though, and I was able to gather some new information that may help diagnosis.

1.) The issue is most likely not with the converter, rather the cable or the board itself (praying it's just the cable.) This is because even when I plug in the board first and then the convert. So Keyboard -> Converter -> Computer, it doesn't recognize anything as expected, but when I unplug the keyboard, hid_listen works like intended and will recognize the converter. I don't know what "Remaining: FFFC" means, but it throws that as well as a keyboard id (0000) and the code set, which is 1, and the mode, PC/XT. This same output is on the original post.

2.) The ground that y'all recommended will not work/isn't right, the cable sadly doesn't reach:
Image

You can see that black lead running off from the cable (separate from the 7x2 connector) is connected to that PCB spot, but when you take the cable and put it in it's intended spot:
Image

The ground connector fits perfectly with the case screw location. Just an FYI, the case back is metal, and so is the screw, so that should ground...?
I am still learning electronics and such, so correct me if I am wrong, but that is a functioning ground, and I believe it is the correct spot, as the DIN cable does say "IBM" so I know it is not after market.
The metal backing (painted):
Image

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Pastenseolith

05 Jul 2020, 02:42

Alright status updates:
The cable is not the issue, it has continuity through the cables. Along with this, that connector thing isn't for the ground at all, but for PE, the ground is supplied through the cables <3. I was confused at first though, as I couldn't locate the proper cable format, this was when I realized that the cable connector diagram I sent earlier was wrong. This is the actual output (don't mind the bad handwriting:)

Image

This was confirmed by this. The resistors are as follows, and in ohms, all of which were true:

Image

There are other components obviously, but I am not sure how to test for them, all of the contacts are in good shape, no corrosion at all. Next, I check continuity throughout the board, looking for sections that may have broken/aren't connecting, and couldn't find anything. Each point means it has continuity with the cable and its respective connection:

Reference:
Image

Ground:
Image

VCC:
Image

Clock:
Image

Data:
Image

From here, I was able to tell that these pads could be soldered directly to and correlate to the cable, which I believe is by design:
Image

I honestly don't think there is an issue with the board that I could test offhand, all of the connections are good. Any idea how I can test the other components to see if they work? I think the issue is with the converter, to be honest, but I have no way of checking this.

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hasu

05 Jul 2020, 03:02

You can use your "IBM Model M 1390120" your profile are refering to test the converter hardware and its cable connection at least?

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Pastenseolith

05 Jul 2020, 03:07

You can use your "IBM Model M 1390120" your profile are refering to test the converter hardware and its cable connection at least?
I don't have a converter for the IBM Model M, It uses a PS/2 cable already, so PS/2 to USB. It doesn't require a soarers converter.

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Pastenseolith

05 Jul 2020, 03:15

Though, I might add I do have an RJ45 to USB Soarers converter, but that is RJ45 not XT

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Polecat

05 Jul 2020, 05:01

Pastenseolith wrote:
05 Jul 2020, 03:07
You can use your "IBM Model M 1390120" your profile are refering to test the converter hardware and its cable connection at least?
I don't have a converter for the IBM Model M, It uses a PS/2 cable already, so PS/2 to USB. It doesn't require a soarers converter.
...but if your XT Soarers supports DIN5 AT you can test it using the Model M and a simple DIN5 to PS/2 adapter.

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Pastenseolith

05 Jul 2020, 17:17

...but if your XT Soarers supports DIN5 AT you can test it using the Model M and a simple DIN5 to PS/2 adapter.
Ah that makes a lot more sense, I ordered a cable to convert PS/2 to DIN 5, I will report back when that gets here and I test it.

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Pastenseolith

09 Jul 2020, 19:01

So, very very bad news, but still heading towards a solution. The converter works, I am typing with my Model M using the converter as we speak! Meaning there is an issue with the board directly, not the converter or the cable. Does anyone know where I would even begin to diagnose the board? I will take all the tips I can get as I barely know what the issue is. I know it's an issue with the actual circuitry of the board, as I am testing the actual PCB directly without any switches, and it still spews out that nonsense. Would anyone know anybody who has experience repairing and diagnosing Model F boards?

kmnov2017

09 Jul 2020, 20:29

I once had a dead controller on one of my Fs. It wasn't worth the effort to try figure out the dead part. I found it easier to just replace the controller. However, in the case of an XT, replacing the controller requires you to cut off the controller from the PCB and solder in a replacement controller.

You can check my post on building a cheap model F/beamspring controller.

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Pastenseolith

09 Jul 2020, 20:56

I see, I believe you are referring to this? I see you have BOM. How hard would it be to use something like this from here? Would it be the same thing just built already, so I would just have to snip the PCB, solder it all up, and then we're golden? I also notice that there is an option to add a solenoid, if I was going to do this I think I might just be stupid enough to add that as well :lol:

Edit:
Oh I see that it has model f "new model" and model f "old model F" I bet that means that one is for the newer model Fs and the other the older Model Fs (like the one I have.) Thing is, the "old model " part is like $250 dollars unless I am mistaken here and the difference between them isn't that and instead is just an older model part. I don't think so though, so most definitely going to build one then.

Edit 2:
After researching, I think that the new model f controller is just that, a new controller style, and should still work. Was a bit confused as it is coming from the same guy who made the repos, but then I realized that would be stupid to sell as they ship with USB iirc...

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