Need help with new Model F keyboard

Tristor · 01 Mar 2021, 02:46

Howdy All,

I received my new production Model F77 keyboard yesterday and assembled it last night. I've run into a few issues, which I'm not really sure how to resolve. I read through the technical guide thoroughly, but wasn't able to answer my questions. I'm using the keyboard plugged into a Macbook Pro, which is how I typically work.

1. When I press the "I" key, it also registers the "7" key. I'm not sure if this is a physical issue or a firmware issue?
2. The command and Opt/Alt keys are switched vs their normal positions. I believe this is a keymap/layer/firmware issue.
3. Several keys do not registered anything when pressed. I've reseated the keycaps and verified they /sound/ correct when pressed, but nothing happens.

It was my belief based on reading the technical manual that #2 and #3 above could potentially be resolved by tweaking the settings of the firmware. I'm on a Mac, however, which presents a challenge. Atmel Flip doesn't run on Macs. It looked like QMK Toolbox might provide me the answers I'm seeking according to the manual, but when I run it, there's no device listing for this keyboard and the same is true on the configurator at qmk.fm. I saw a mention that QMK support might be in beta, and to ask on Deskthority about that.

Assuming I want to reflash to QMK and set this up with a proper Mac keymap, what would I need to do? I believe that might resolve my issues because I'm guessing that #3 is calibration related and #2 is keymap related. I still don't know what to do about #1 though.

Thanks

Bjerrk · 01 Mar 2021, 10:05

Tristor wrote: ↑
01 Mar 2021, 02:46
Howdy All,

I received my new production Model F77 keyboard yesterday and assembled it last night. I've run into a few issues, which I'm not really sure how to resolve. I read through the technical guide thoroughly, but wasn't able to answer my questions. I'm using the keyboard plugged into a Macbook Pro, which is how I typically work.

1. When I press the "I" key, it also registers the "7" key. I'm not sure if this is a physical issue or a firmware issue?
2. The command and Opt/Alt keys are switched vs their normal positions. I believe this is a keymap/layer/firmware issue.
3. Several keys do not registered anything when pressed. I've reseated the keycaps and verified they /sound/ correct when pressed, but nothing happens.

It was my belief based on reading the technical manual that #2 and #3 above could potentially be resolved by tweaking the settings of the firmware. I'm on a Mac, however, which presents a challenge. Atmel Flip doesn't run on Macs. It looked like QMK Toolbox might provide me the answers I'm seeking according to the manual, but when I run it, there's no device listing for this keyboard and the same is true on the configurator at qmk.fm. I saw a mention that QMK support might be in beta, and to ask on Deskthority about that.

Assuming I want to reflash to QMK and set this up with a proper Mac keymap, what would I need to do? I believe that might resolve my issues because I'm guessing that #3 is calibration related and #2 is keymap related. I still don't know what to do about #1 though.

Thanks

Some of the new Model F keyboards have had somewhat dodgy electrical tape on the controller, causing some solder contacts to poke through and short. It is easily fixed by slapping one some better tape. See e.g. the discussion here. This could be the cause of the issues you're experiencing.

-Space-NATO- · 01 Mar 2021, 16:18

Hmm I don't know about the new model F, but on the originals you have to triple check if the grounding wire is properly attached. Try that.
I've never used mac, so can't help you with that!

Muirium · 01 Mar 2021, 16:43

I never use anything but Mac (and iOS) so I may be more help! USB converted Model Fs work great. Here’s one of my very favourite boards, the IBM original yours is inspired by:

I use Xwhatsit’s controller which is re-programmable on Mac (at least up to and including Catalina) with it’s own app. Originally, Ellipse was going to use the same firmware in his remake keyboards. Quite likely the hardware is still compatible, though I’m just guessing here.

Xwhatsit’s GUI is broken on M1 running Big Sur. I haven’t tried Intel. So, long term we need a new solution on the software side.

Tristor · 01 Mar 2021, 18:40

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to dig into this again after work today. I'll disassemble the casing and check the electrical tape, that seems an easy/quick fix if that's the issue. I have some liquid electrical tape and do electronics work myself, so I can figure that out if that's the issue. I was trying to avoid disassembly unless it seemed necessary just to reduce variables I introduce myself.

I am nearly certain this has Xwhatsit's controller in it, based on the technical manual, but will visually identify which one it is when I disassemble the case tonight to check the board tape. Either way, the tool recommended to use on Mac for flashing is QMK Toolbox which doesn't seem to have this keyboard listed. I'm guessing I can blind-flash an existing firmware download from their downloads page without needing to work with the keymaps stuff, so I'll start by doing that in order to ensure it has a valid firmware and keymap setup.

I'll report back once I've done those things. If anyone else has any ideas, I'm open to suggestions. I'm also going to test and reseat and "dead" keys keycaps again tonight, although they all feel / sound correct from a click perspective.

Tristor · 01 Mar 2021, 20:05

I had a bit of free time during my lunch break and disassembled the keyboard. The tape looks visually okay, but it's hard to tell if there's a minute pierce-through. I've got polyamide electronics tape on hand, so will cover it over in another layer. Everything looks visually okay otherwise. The soldering looks alright, although a little inconsistent (I'm guessing these were soldered by hand?). The controller is marked as "Keyboard Controller based on work by Tom Wong - Cornall" so I believe it's an Xwhatsit controller.

Let's hope the tape fixes it.

Tristor · 01 Mar 2021, 21:08

Update: I'm typing this message on the F77. I was able to resolve all the issues, except for one. I still have the Cmd and Alt/Opt keys switched, which I believe is a keymapping issue. One of the previous problem keys "c" sometimes doesn't register or will repeat several times, so I think I need to do some tuning there, but otherwise this is a dream to type on. Brings me back to my youth

Tristor · 01 Mar 2021, 21:15

Muirium wrote: ↑
01 Mar 2021, 16:43
I use Xwhatsit’s controller which is re-programmable on Mac (at least up to and including Catalina) with it’s own app. Originally, Ellipse was going to use the same firmware in his remake keyboards. Quite likely the hardware is still compatible, though I’m just guessing here.

I downloaded ibm_capsense_usb and got it working on Catalina, but when I launch it it says there's multiple beamspring controllers found. How do I know which one to select? Is there a way to tell? I'm going to try some process of elimination, but I'd like some guidance to know for the future if there's some knowledge I'm missing.

Tristor · 01 Mar 2021, 21:17

Hmm, their identities change every time I launch the utility. If I select the first one in the list, it never loads, it becomes unresponsive and I must forcequit. Will try the second one.

Same behavior for the second device ID. Application becomes unresponsive and requires a force quit.

Muirium · 01 Mar 2021, 21:47

It’s a bug and it’s not getting fixed.

Xwhatsit’s GUI has always been that way in the Mac. I don’t know why, and he’s not been around for years to try to fix it. The app is built on some cross platform framework: Qt if I recall. It was all his work and he never got to the bottom of that behaviour.

For what it’s worth: if you have 2 Model Fs connected, you’ll see 4 entries in that selector! Even with the more ordinary case of 1 keyboard, I’ve never been much good at guessing which one to select. Trial and Force Quit is the only way.

We could really use an updated build of the GUI. It’s not perfect, but it’s so graphical it’s a dream when it is working. Sadly, it doesn’t seem to run at all now on Big Sur.

Bjerrk · 01 Mar 2021, 22:08

But, Tristor, if you only just received your New Model F, shouldn't you be on the QMK firmware? You should talk to pandrew about getting access to the software, including the little utility that allows you to view thresholds and voltages.

Tristor · 01 Mar 2021, 22:27

Muirium wrote: ↑
01 Mar 2021, 21:47
Trial and Force Quit is the only way.

What do you do when both options cause a lockup?

Tristor · 01 Mar 2021, 22:28

Bjerrk wrote: ↑
01 Mar 2021, 22:08
But, Tristor, if you only just received your New Model F, shouldn't you be on the QMK firmware? You should talk to pandrew about getting access to the software, including the little utility that allows you to view thresholds and voltages.

I wasn't sure how to tell. I think this is correct, but QMK Toolbox doesn't list our boards as an option. I will ping @pandrew into the thread, and send him a DM to see what I should do.

Thanks

Bjerrk · 02 Mar 2021, 07:12

Tristor wrote: ↑
01 Mar 2021, 22:28
I wasn't sure how to tell. I think this is correct, but QMK Toolbox doesn't list our boards as an option.

Yeah, you need the custom version for now, I'm sure pandrew will get you sorted.

swedishpiehole · 02 Mar 2021, 18:33

Chiming in here because I was able to flash my F62 using QMK (with help from @pandrew and @tentator) successfully last summer on a Mac using xwhatsit's beta firmware + QMK Configurator, the ibm capsense util to enter into bootloader, and QMK Toolbox to flash. I did have that issue of the util detecting multiple controllers, and I remember it being trial and error to get the right one selected—the wrong one would cause the app to hang and crash. However today I wanted to make a change to my keymap, and when I tried to enter bootloader mode using the capsense util, it just won't work. The GUI acts the same, but I've tried randomly selecting the first or second controller from the popup like 20 times and it hangs every time and won't got into bootloader. Is this to do with the fact that I'm now running Big Sur? Muirium mentioned above that it doesn't work at all on Big Sur, but it's unclear whether this is M1 related or not, and whether or not if the GUI acts "normal" that means that it should be working...

Any help would be appreciated, as I'm now a bit worried that my $400+ keyboard is stuck on this keymap forever...

Burton · 02 Mar 2021, 18:47

Bjerrk wrote: ↑
02 Mar 2021, 07:12

Tristor wrote: ↑
01 Mar 2021, 22:28
I wasn't sure how to tell. I think this is correct, but QMK Toolbox doesn't list our boards as an option.
Yeah, you need the custom version for now, I'm sure pandrew will get you sorted.

Interesting idea. My brother has a similar situation, I will give him your recommendation. I think it should help if he still hasn't figured it out.

Tristor · 02 Mar 2021, 19:23

Just an update, other than my keymap issue for Command / Opt/Alt, everything seems okay except my "c" key. It inconsistently registers, often requiring multiple strikes to work. I've checked the spring and re-seated the keycap several times and it doesn't seem to help. Should I consider ordering extra springs / first aid kit and trying to replace the spring?

darkcruix · 02 Mar 2021, 20:04

Tristor wrote: ↑
02 Mar 2021, 19:23
Just an update, other than my keymap issue for Command / Opt/Alt, everything seems okay except my "c" key. It inconsistently registers, often requiring multiple strikes to work. I've checked the spring and re-seated the keycap several times and it doesn't seem to help. Should I consider ordering extra springs / first aid kit and trying to replace the spring?

A good option is to remove the spring and turn it upside down (if it is the spring). Normally you can feel and hear, if there is an issue with the spring.

First: try to actuate it with the keycap removed. just pressing down on the spring with the finger should do.
Also - try to wiggle the spring a bit.

Tristor · 02 Mar 2021, 20:40

I've taken the keycap off and wiggled the spring, pressed down on it a few times with tweezers, and actuated it with my pinky finger. Then I reinstalled the keycap. It seems to work okay now, I guess we'll see if it continues to behave as expected or if issues return. Thanks.

Tristor · 03 Mar 2021, 17:24

Anyone know if there's someone else besides @pandrew that could get me the QMK beta for the Model F? I think they've been offline for awhile.

Bjerrk · 03 Mar 2021, 18:31

Tristor wrote: ↑
03 Mar 2021, 17:24
Anyone know if there's someone else besides @pandrew that could get me the QMK beta for the Model F? I think they've been offline for awhile.

Tristor: I'll send you a PM with the details, I'm guessing pandrew wont mind.

Tristor · 03 Mar 2021, 23:55

Bjerrk wrote: ↑
03 Mar 2021, 18:31

Tristor wrote: ↑
03 Mar 2021, 17:24
Anyone know if there's someone else besides @pandrew that could get me the QMK beta for the Model F? I think they've been offline for awhile.
Tristor: I'll send you a PM with the details, I'm guessing pandrew wont mind.

Thanks very much for the info. I was able to get everything working. It's all 100% now and setup for Mac

Awesome

darkcruix · 04 Mar 2021, 00:15

Tristor wrote: ↑
03 Mar 2021, 23:55

Bjerrk wrote: ↑
03 Mar 2021, 18:31

Tristor wrote: ↑
03 Mar 2021, 17:24
Anyone know if there's someone else besides @pandrew that could get me the QMK beta for the Model F? I think they've been offline for awhile.
Tristor: I'll send you a PM with the details, I'm guessing pandrew wont mind.
Thanks very much for the info. I was able to get everything working. It's all 100% now and setup for Mac Awesome

Glad to hear !!! Thanks for the update

jun19inf · 13 Mar 2021, 08:47

Hello everyone,

I'm new to Deskthority and I just received my modern model f. I saw this post and I am wondering if I too can get the QMK beta? Thank you.

Muirium · 13 Mar 2021, 09:41

Have a read at this:

XMIT wrote: ↑
12 Mar 2021, 17:50
I don't know where pandrew is and I hope all is well with him. I heard from him a few days ago.

The document that he shared has a CC BY-SA 4.0 and GPL v2 license. So, I have forked it and made it available here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B6Y ... sp=sharing

pandrew, I do this only out of the greatest respect for you and your incredible work, to unblock others who might want to try this out.

Muirium · 13 Mar 2021, 12:35

So, here I am, having just followed those instructions myself with my Xwhatsit powered AT. Built my own firmware using the interface within. So far so good!

I didn't need to open the keyboard up—or find an older Mac to run Xwhatit's old GUI on—just to enter the bootloader for flashing. Simply using XMIT's build of the config tool and QMK Toolbox has me all set. Impressive work!

One weird thing is the Caps Lock LED is lighting up momentarily on every keypress, which feels even more oldschool than this AT! Those LEDs were working fine with Xwhatsit's firmware immediately before I reflashed to this, so it's not a wiring issue.

Muirium · 13 Mar 2021, 12:46

p[p[l/'
kl/jg'.p[iug-090-7096=-/'
gkj/'
≥≥/
/'
/'
/'
.mmmhh.≥

Ahem. The Kishsaver's going to need more work. The firmware loads fine but all the keymappings are wrong. This is what the key tester looks like once I've thoroughly mashed the keyboard:

: Screenshot 2021-03-13 at 11.43.19 am.jpg (108.04 KiB) Viewed 21893 times

It's a basic matrix mapping issue in the LAYOUT_ansi_regular_shift_split_backspace definition. All the keys seem to trigger something in the levels test, shown here after a comprehensive mashing:

: Screenshot 2021-03-13 at 11.52.21 am.jpg (183.59 KiB) Viewed 21887 times

For what it's worth: my Kishsaver actually has Xwhatsit's prototype Model F controller installed. He sent it to me for testing before the rev.1 production run. Maybe the pins are mapped differently? It is a bit smaller than the final model, as I recall. I wonder how I'll fix it in software…

Here's my Xwhatsit config file, showing the correct matrix mapping:

Code: Select all

# Base Layer
0x02 0x02 0x1e 0x1f 0x21 0x23 0x25 0x27 0x2e 0x35 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02
0x02 0x02 0x29 0x14 0x20 0x22 0x24 0x26 0x2d 0x31 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02
0x02 0x02 0x2b 0x1a 0x15 0x1c 0x0c 0x13 0x2f 0x30 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x01
0x02 0x02 0xe4 0x04 0x08 0x17 0x18 0x12 0x31 0x2a 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x01
0x02 0x02 0xe1 0x16 0x09 0x0b 0x0d 0x33 0x34 0x28 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02
0x02 0x02 0x02 0x1b 0x07 0x0a 0x0e 0x0f 0x38 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02
0x02 0x02 0xe2 0x1d 0x06 0x05 0x11 0x37 0xe6 0xe5 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x01
0x02 0x02 0xe0 0xe3 0x19 0x2c 0x10 0x36 0xe7 0xd0 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02 0x02

# Layer 1
0x00 0x00 0x3a 0x3b 0x3d 0x3f 0x41 0x43 0x45 0x4c 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0xa5 0x00 0x3c 0x3e 0x40 0x42 0x44 0x49 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0x39 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x46 0x48 0x52 0xda 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x01
0x00 0x00 0xe4 0x81 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x47 0x32 0x31 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x01
0x00 0x00 0xe1 0x80 0x00 0x55 0x54 0x50 0x4f 0x58 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0x87 0x00 0x7f 0x4d 0x4a 0x4b 0x51 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0xe2 0x00 0x00 0x03 0x57 0x4e 0xe6 0xe5 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x01
0x00 0x00 0xe0 0xe3 0x4e 0x2c 0x56 0x4d 0xe7 0xd0 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02

# Layer 2
0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x60 0x62 0x67 0x31 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0x29 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x5f 0x61 0x56 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0x2b 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x5d 0x55 0x58 0xd8 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x01
0x00 0x00 0xe4 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x5c 0x5e 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x01
0x00 0x00 0xe1 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x59 0x57 0x00 0x58 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x5a 0x5b 0x54 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0xe2 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x63 0xe6 0xe5 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x01
0x00 0x00 0xe0 0xe3 0x00 0x2c 0x62 0x85 0xe7 0xd0 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02

# Layer 3
0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0x29 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x01
0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x01
0x00 0x00 0x39 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02
0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x39 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x01
0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x02

# Layer Conditions
(1 0 0)	1
(0 0 0)	1
(0 0 0)	1
(0 0 0)	1
(0 0 0)	1
(0 0 0)	1
(0 0 0)	1
(0 0 0)	1

# Column Skips
[1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 0]

# Expansion header
+ 1 50 60

Note those column skips! The Kish definitely skips many of them, but not contiguously. By my count that's 9 pins in use for its columns. More than the Signal Level Monitor shows, in its f62/xwhatsit setup. I bet that definition is what needs tweaked.

Anyway, these new tools are pretty nifty! Love seeing the capsense stuff running in realtime.

pandrew · 13 Mar 2021, 14:29

Muirium wrote: ↑
13 Mar 2021, 12:46
Note those column skips! The Kish definitely skips many of them, but not contiguously. By my count that's 9 pins in use for its columns. More than the Signal Level Monitor shows, in its f62/xwhatsit setup. I bet that definition is what needs tweaked.

You're the first original F62 kishsaver tester for my firmware. I wrote the original kishsaver keymap based on a picture from kishy.ca ( http://kishy.ca/?attachment_id=951 ), And it's not 100% clear, but looking at it again now it does look like the first two columns are skipped. (first two are in the middle of the ribbon cable next to the two ground pins). I missed this while first implementing the keyboard.

I pushed fixes, please try again.

Btw the extra column (on the left of the picture) is calibration pads, which I don't use. So effectively there are only 8 useful columns.

Muirium wrote: ↑
13 Mar 2021, 12:46
One weird thing is the Caps Lock LED is lighting up momentarily on every keypress, which feels even more oldschool than this AT! Those LEDs were working fine with Xwhatsit's firmware immediately before I reflashed to this, so it's not a wiring issue.

My intent was to support solenoid drivers by default, that's why it's behaving like that. Normally I would say that you have to build from sources to achieve the old behaviour, but you're not the first one complaining about this, so I just created, Just for the AT, "wcass_locklights" and "xwhatsit_locklights" variants of the firmware. Please test them. You will need new util.exe for these.

swedishpiehole wrote: ↑
02 Mar 2021, 18:33
I tried to enter bootloader mode using the capsense util, it just won't work.

Just to clarify: The Ibm capsense util that comes with the original xwhatsit firmware will only work with original xwhatsit firmware. It is not expected to be able to send the keyboard into bootloader mode with that ibm capsense util.
There are many ways to send a QMK-sporting keyboard into bootloader mode, the easiest is pressing leftshift-rightshift-B.
It's also possible to send it into bootloader mode with MY util (not ibm capsense util), but that particular feature might go away once my work is upstreamed. (for security reasons, see automated malware could flash badusb firmware onto your keyboard if this feature is supported. So having bootloader entry controlled from the host is technically a security flaw. )

Muirium · 13 Mar 2021, 15:01

Oooh! Thanks Pandrew!

I just rebuilt my Kishsaver map on your new configurator, and it's getting there. All keys in the matrix now show up, but several are still in the wrong spots. The ASDF and ZXCV rows both need some work, and Left Shift and Return keys are like this:

: Screenshot 2021-03-13 at 1.54.08 pm.jpg (185.83 KiB) Viewed 21852 times

Left Shift is showing up in the hidden pad under that key, while Return is showing up in the hidden pad under Right Shift.

Here's the jiggled keys:

S is mapped to X
D to F
F to D
G to H
H to G
J to K
K to J
L to ;
; to L
' to /
X to S
/ to '

Flip those around and it's looking mighty fine!

Oh: none of these alpha key presses show up outside of (XMIT's Mac build of) your tools. I know they block the keyboard when running in monitor mode but this is also true when they're closed. Yet pressing Command + Tab works just fine for app switching. I don't know what that's all about.

Edit: oh, they do all work *before* running the tools. But they're all disabled after quitting, including Cmd+Tab. Huh… I probably need a new build to match these firmwares.

XMIT · 13 Mar 2021, 18:27

I rebuilt the util based on pandrew's most recent commits.

https://www.xmitkeyboards.com/wp-conten ... 210313.dmg

This was built on an Intel Mac, namely a MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015) running macOS Catalina Version 10.15.7 (19H524).