Vintage Increases Value?

[E3E]

I wonder what OG unmodified F62/77 would go for on eBay these days

There's a broken and bootleg industrial painted one for $3k that started for several thousand higher that continues to not sell, so it would seem people wanting to empty their bank accounts on a keyboard would like it at least original and working.

Yep, that poor board though, eck.

[XMIT]

There's a broken and bootleg industrial painted one for $3k that started for several thousand higher that continues to not sell, so it would seem people wanting to empty their bank accounts on a keyboard would like it at least original and working.

That's MrDuul's board. MrDuul was a huge troll here on DT, we rode him out on a rail.

[Polecat]

Kishsavers, meanwhile, were strictly corporate—banking terminals, right?—so all the OG hardware is used, and fairly rare. Owners chucked it all out, decades ago. Scarcity surely makes the prices rocket, but when I got mine for a hundred bucks or so, the demand wasn't there yet. The legend was busy being born.

Some or all of the IBM corporate hardware was leased rather than sold, and IBM was very strict about having it returned for destruction when the term was up. I ran into that decades ago when I first saw an IBM POS terminal in a department store, with what looked like a 9 inch mono VGA monitor (which you could not buy at the time). I desperately wanted such a thing, because I was building a 386 into a Keypro case to use as a portable data logger. I ended up making my own monitor using the guts from a 14 inch mono VGA monitor and an early Mac CRT, but not long after that I found a guy who was an agent for IBM who had pallets of the 4683 and 4707 IBM monitors in his yard. He told me he couldn't sell them even broken, they had to go back to IBM, but since he knew me he let me take about ten of them after I promised him they would not reappear in any recognizable form. In that same yard were hundreds and hundreds of corporate terminals and printers, and yes, keyboards, presumably doomed to the same fate. I'm guessing that many or most of the corporate IBM keyboards that have survived went out the back door at some point, like the monitors I ended up with.

[Go-Kart]

Destruction of such things should be criminal.

[micmil]

Just buy a Unicomp man.

bUt ThE qUaLiTy!!??!

I have an IBM M122 and a Unicomp New Model M. I have no idea what people are talking about with the quality. Maybe the Unicomp Classic wasn't as good. The only real difference now is that the Unicomps don't waste money on pointlessly heavy metal panels. I got the M seemingly just as the price jumped on the terminal models. Haven't seen one in similar condition go for less than $120 while I bought mine for about $70 THREE MONTHS AGO. It's insane.

[lhutton]

Just buy a Unicomp man.

bUt ThE qUaLiTy!!??!

I have an IBM M122 and a Unicomp New Model M. I have no idea what people are talking about with the quality. Maybe the Unicomp Classic wasn't as good. The only real difference now is that the Unicomps don't waste money on pointlessly heavy metal panels. I got the M seemingly just as the price jumped on the terminal models. Haven't seen one in similar condition go for less than $120 while I bought mine for about $70 THREE MONTHS AGO. It's insane.

The quality compared to a keyboard that's likely seen 20+ years of hard service and will good cleaning at a minimum and most likely a bolt mod? There's a lot to be said for take it out of the box and it works. Unicomps are different than IBM Ms in sound or feel but neither is bad IMO.

I have an UltraClassic, New 2020 M and the Mini M along with more original IBM Ms that I should admit too. Terminal, original, SSK and I even have one with Sabre Travel legends made for American Airlines. The UltraClassic is probably the worst of the three in my collection but IMO it's not awful or anything. You could have certainly a lot done worse for $90 (cough cough Razer cough) when I bought it new. The New M is definitely a step up in terms of quality though coming from the UltraClassic I will admit.

I think most of the complaints about Unicomp comes from the classic styled M they make. I don't own one but I've seen a few over the years and some were kind of rough. But IIRC they were using the same nearly 20-30 year old molds and tooling or those as for the original M. The UltraClassic and EnduraPro were newer and had newer case molds.

[fohat]

Unicomps don't waste money on pointlessly heavy metal panels.

What? Heavy plates are probably the most coveted component of early Model Ms. Personally, I think that the heaviest plates in the pre-1988s really improve both sound and feel, especially after a bolt mod.

[lhutton]

I've got a few 86-88 Ms in my collection and the sound is noticeable different from the plate but I think 80% of the sound difference between classic Ms and Unicomp Ms is down to fact they replaced the rubber sheet with a mylar one in the Unicomps. Not sure why they did that but it would interesting if they offered the old rubber sheet assembly as an option. Also the case acoustics play a big roll. With the Unicomp original designs they cases are smaller and I think that lends to a higher pitched sound over the cavernous classic M cases.

Typing feel on the other hand is due to the springs and admittedly looser barrel plates Unicomp ships. I feel like my Unicomps are a bit stiffer than my classic Ms too but I've not measured. The new 2020 and Mini M definitely tightened up the loose key feel problem though.

[XMIT]

Just buy a Unicomp man.

bUt ThE qUaLiTy!!??!

I have an IBM M122 and a Unicomp New Model M. I have no idea what people are talking about with the quality. Maybe the Unicomp Classic wasn't as good. The only real difference now is that the Unicomps don't waste money on pointlessly heavy metal panels.

The key caps were better, sharper edges. The dye sub legends were better. The cases were thicker and not prone to defects from being super thin. The springs were better too. It's not just the plate. It's everything.

The newer boards have for the most part better behaved controllers since they take less power.

I'd take an '86 M over a new Unicomp M any day.

[micmil]

How were the springs "better?" I highly doubt they've ever been anything but a commodity component sourced from whoever was making that size the cheapest at the time. I just measured the springs on my New Model M, M122, and M2. They're the same thing, at least as far as OD and wire thickness go. Apologies to the rest of the world but I only have Imperial calipers that are worth a damn. .11" on the OD, .014" wire thickness on my crap calipers that I'm sure are not super accurate. I'm unsure of the length on the M122 and NMM springs as they're all installed and I'm not pulling them for this. Given that they're all interchangeable, I'll wager they're also the same. Is the material composition massively different?

This is the kind of inane drivel that drives prices up. Old shit takes on this mythical quality where everything is magically better. Are there aspects where the old stuff is better? Yes. Would I automatically steer someone towards the old one? Hell no. I had people warn me off of the NMM before buying it and I'm glad I ignored them as I get way more use out of my NMM than M122. Better keys, better keyfeel, better printing... and I'm sure someone would gladly take the M122 over the NMM and that's absolutely fine.

What's not fine is propping up old shit as the end-all-be-all then being surprised when people believe you and start buying it all up, raising demand, lowering supply, and driving prices through the roof.

Someone just paid nearly ten grand for a janky Space Cadet keyboard, the keyboard propped up as the most key to ever board. Just consider that for a while.

[Tritian]

You don't buy a space cadet because it's the most key to ever board. it's a collection piece, and people who buy it for $10k are making an investment.

I have no problem recommending someone a New Model M or Mini M that just want a great daily driver for a good price and dont want to deal with any of the headaches of an old Model M. However, objectively, the older Model M's ARE built significantly better, minus any rivets that have fallen out. The old Model M's are for people who want to collect one, or the nostalgia, or want the ones with the best build quality/sound, and dont mind dealing with the issues of a 35 year old keyboard.

[fohat]

they replaced the rubber sheet with a mylar one in the Unicomps.

Not sure why they did that but it would interesting if they offered the old rubber sheet assembly as an option.

Unicomp sheets ("blankets" in their parlance) are thin white latex, and are, in my opinion, the one positive innovation that Unicomp has made. I think that it adds a quality that I would call "crispness".

My main 2 Model Ms are carefully bolt-modded 1986-88 Models (a 1390131 and an SSK) into which I transplanted latex Unicomp mats (which they sell for $10).

[raoulduke-esq]

Folks talk about all kinds of firmware and aesthetic changes Unicomp could make and I’m over here just wishing they would get all their available products and couch listed and photographed on their site. Didn’t know they have “blankets”.

[micmil]

You don't buy a space cadet because it's the most key to ever board. it's a collection piece, and people who buy it for $10k are making an investment.

Yes, because the market has been so hyped up that the speculators are rolling into town. May they all crash and burn. Understand, however, that the reason speculators are jumping on this particular model is because of the way it's hyped up in the community. There are dozens, if not hundreds of models of keyboards that are far rarer and which will never command this kind of price... but nobody makes YouTube videos about most of those because so many of them are massively uninteresting and have no real history. "Oh look, it's a DEC branded Key Tronic!"

I have no problem recommending someone a New Model M or Mini M that just want a great daily driver for a good price and dont want to deal with any of the headaches of an old Model M. However, objectively, the older Model M's ARE built significantly better, minus any rivets that have fallen out. The old Model M's are for people who want to collect one, or the nostalgia, or want the ones with the best build quality/sound, and dont mind dealing with the issues of a 35 year old keyboard.

"They're objectively better, except in the ways they're objectively worse." Which is my entire point. Too many people will not even entertain the idea that the old keyboards are objectively worse in many ways so they make up nonsense about how the membrane was stiffer or the ROM stored bits harder or the switches that are still made the same way by the same company in the same factory are somehow worse now because reasons. "Good Ol' Days Syndrome" is strong regardless of topic but from an objective standpoint the old days were rarely better.

Although it must be said that the "Much Older Days" of the 80's and early 90's were objectively better than the "Much Rubber Days" of the late 90's through early 2010's.

[phwog_]

I know I'm a month late, but this happens with all tech in a way. if you don't wanna get scammed out of 50$ look at local craigslist listings. side note with crt monitors and tvs, even though basically everybody for the most part has one in their basement collecting dust, people can put a 100 dollar price tag on it, as long as they justify it as being "retro" like cmon man

[hellothere]

> Yes, because the market has been so hyped up that the speculators are rolling into town. May they all crash and burn. Understand, however, that the reason speculators are jumping on this particular model is because of the way it's hyped up in the community. There are dozens, if not hundreds of models of keyboards that are far rarer and which will never command this kind of price... but nobody makes YouTube videos about most of those because so many of them are massively uninteresting and have no real history. "Oh look, it's a DEC branded Key Tronic!"
There are "speculators" in any hobby that involves purchasing something. Think about it. I'll randomly pick Lego. Old and/or discontinued sets cost a lot. Same with hubcaps. Same with salt and pepper shakers. Records. Stickers. Bottles. Cans. Buttons. Collecting retro TVs is even a thing.

For the following comments, please note that while I'm looking for "endgame" keyboards, my hobby is fixing keyboards. I don't collect. If I fix a KB isn't an "endgame," I re-sell it.

The reason why, specifically, Key Tronic isn't more popular is because a lot of folks don't seem to like foam and foil switches. Unless I find an exceptionally good looking Key Tronic f&f, I won't buy one because of the comments I've seen. I probably wouldn't buy a Mitsumi Miniature Mechanical, although the non-Mini ones aren't bad. There are a couple of others that I'm just not remembering ATM.

FWIW, I really like my modern linear and my modern clicky keyboards. I'm even going to call my linear an "endgame" for me in that category, although I might go for heavier springs. I like my clicky as much or more than a Model M and a Model F. I haven't tried a beamspring, though.

[lhutton]

Unicomp sheets ("blankets" in their parlance) are thin white latex, and are, in my opinion, the one positive innovation that Unicomp has made. I think that it adds a quality that I would call "crispness".

I think the new mats improve the feel a bit but at the cost of the sound. Unicomps are more pingy and higher pitched and that's at least partially due to the mylar/latex/whatever mat they're using. I don't mind it too much but it's something I've noticed.

I rather like the updated color scheme myself. Ever since they came out with that black/bright white/grey color combo I've been a fan. Beige is neat from a retro perspective but I think the the newer look is a bit more timeless. It doesn't look out of place on a modern desk so much. The black M13 looks more contemporary than the OG Ms IMO.

[Bjerrk]

Unicomp sheets ("blankets" in their parlance) are thin white latex, and are, in my opinion, the one positive innovation that Unicomp has made. I think that it adds a quality that I would call "crispness".

I think the new mats improve the feel a bit but at the cost of the sound. Unicomps are more pingy and higher pitched and that's at least partially due to the mylar/latex/whatever mat they're using. I don't mind it too much but it's something I've noticed.

Have you factored in the keycaps? I tried switching between Unicomp and some 1987 IBM keycaps, and the IBM ones sounded noticeably lower pitched.

(Not that I have any reason to doubt that the mats affect the sound as well!)

[Tritian]

IMO unicomp keycaps are louder, looser, and also smoother than the OG 2-piece M caps.

[lhutton]

Unicomp sheets ("blankets" in their parlance) are thin white latex, and are, in my opinion, the one positive innovation that Unicomp has made. I think that it adds a quality that I would call "crispness".

I think the new mats improve the feel a bit but at the cost of the sound. Unicomps are more pingy and higher pitched and that's at least partially due to the mylar/latex/whatever mat they're using. I don't mind it too much but it's something I've noticed.

Have you factored in the keycaps? I tried switching between Unicomp and some 1987 IBM keycaps, and the IBM ones sounded noticeably lower pitched.

(Not that I have any reason to doubt that the mats affect the sound as well!)

Are you comparing apples to apples, that is do both have single piece or two piece? That might explain the difference if not as a lot of Unicomps had single piece and classics had two piece. I find there is a difference in sound and feel between the two and TBH I prefer the feel of single piece keycaps to two piece key caps. I think there's some give and flex in the double piece that isn't there in the single piece. Cool factor and sound goes to the double piece though IMO.

I've not switched keycaps between IBM and a Unicomp but I have both versions with single piece and double piece keycaps. My OG SSK and a Dell branded Model M from 1994 or 1995 have single piece and my UltraClassic from 2018 has two piece. My other two Unicomps have single piece and the rest of the classics have two piece.

[an_achronism]

I wonder what OG unmodified F62/77 would go for on eBay these days

There's a broken and bootleg industrial painted one for $3k that started for several thousand higher that continues to not sell, so it would seem people wanting to empty their bank accounts on a keyboard would like it at least original and working.

I'm seeing quite a lot of vintage boards that are priced into the stratosphere and remain overpriced long term even though nobody's biting, even just bog standard mid-90s Model Ms and the like. When you see multiple sellers shifting the same thing you have for around $100 or so and you're asking $900, *surely* you have to think "perhaps I'm overestimating the value of this"? Apparently not...

If there is such a thing as – to use an irritating Redditty term – an "endgame" board for me, I suspect it's probably that 107-key model 400 for the 4704. But I fully expect that if one were ever to surface again, it would be priced in thousands rather than hundreds, and there's no bloody way I can do that. So I'll probably never get one, and it makes me rather sad.

[raoulduke-esq]

So I'll probably never get one, and it makes me rather sad.

Same. I love my Pingmaster and I love the feel of my Ellipse boards so like put those two things together AND add the left function cluster that I also adore and the 107 is a dream board for me. However, it is still an F. I would spend hundreds on an F but not thousands, no matter how rare it is. I’ll keep you company in probably never getting one land.

[headphone_jack]

Especially as prices continue to skyrocket, I have made it my mantra to never buy a board at market price. Even for things people would consider rare, like F107, certain expensive Alps boards, and beamsprings can be had at well under "market" value if you just wait long enough. I hope the bubble collapses soon and we can revert back to reasonable prices, but for now the only way to get a decent board at a decent price is to deal hunt.

[E3E]

It is very unfortunate seeing prices become so astronomical these days. Back when I got into the hobby even as late as 2015, things were still relatively underground and prices are a fraction of what they are today.

I remember passing up an original IBM kishsaver in 2016 on eBay for $450 and it's a big regret. I remember when F107s sold for a little more than $300, and when beamsprings just started rising in price, not even going above $500 for ages.

Crazy seeing how it is now.

Such are things.

[Bjerrk]

I hope the bubble collapses soon and we can revert back to reasonable prices, but for now the only way to get a decent board at a decent price is to deal hunt.

Would be nice, wouldn't it?
But given how mechanical keyboards are seeing a definite resurgence, and these vintage boards are not getting any younger or more numerous, I wouldn't be so sure.

One (simplistic) way to think about it: Let's say you have a product which is no longer produced. Let's then say that an (average) remaining specimen has a chance p of being thrown out each year. Then the number of remaining specimens at year t+1 is
N(t+1) = (1-p)*N(t). If you solve that equation, you find that the number decreases exponentially.

(Of course, such a simplistic model can be criticized for a million good reasons, but you get the idea)

[headphone_jack]

I hope the bubble collapses soon and we can revert back to reasonable prices, but for now the only way to get a decent board at a decent price is to deal hunt.

Would be nice, wouldn't it?
But given how mechanical keyboards are seeing a definite resurgence, and these vintage boards are not getting any younger or more numerous, I wouldn't be so sure.

One (simplistic) way to think about it: Let's say you have a product which is no longer produced. Let's then say that an (average) remaining specimen has a chance p of being thrown out each year. Then the number of remaining specimens at year t+1 is
N(t+1) = (1-p)*N(t). If you solve that equation, you find that the number decreases exponentially.

(Of course, such a simplistic model can be criticized for a million good reasons, but you get the idea)

My hope is that typing itself eventually becomes obsolete, so the demand for keyboards of any kind drops through the floor. Meanwhile stubborn bastards like me will just keep collecting and watch people unload years of collected boards at cheap prices. Lets be real though, that's a few decades in the future. But it will certainly happen, at some point.

[Weezer]

What will the replacement for typing be? Will be submitting our brainscans to google? How would general typing going obsolete cause collectors to stop collecting?

[headphone_jack]

What will the replacement for typing be? Will be submitting our brainscans to google? How would general typing going obsolete cause collectors to stop collecting?

BCI devices will, whether we like it or not, probably become as standard as smartphones are today within the next decade or two. Tom Scott had an excellent talk about it, you can watch it here: https://youtu.be/_kBlH-DQsEg

[E3E]

I find the above a bit amusing, mostly because it fails to consider the fact that what is driving the market up is the niche of collectors who are loaded and really desire these input devices.

Demand isn't going to change in the collector's market regardless of where technology goes. There will never be enough supply of original coveted equipment to meet the ever-growing demand. As the community grows and more eyes are on these items, the trend will only continue like in many other collector's markets that have grown out of control (retro gaming, cars, sneakers, etc).

The only way I see this stopping is through another economic crisis like what happened in 2008 which tanked prices on everything for ages. That wouldn't be good either.

[Weezer]

What will the replacement for typing be? Will be submitting our brainscans to google? How would general typing going obsolete cause collectors to stop collecting?

BCI devices will, whether we like it or not, probably become as standard as smartphones are today within the next decade or two. Tom Scott had an excellent talk about it, you can watch it here: https://youtu.be/_kBlH-DQsEg

Im not so sure the general public will submit themselves to something like that.

Infact if you want to get really out there, i almost wonder if something like that would be outlawed because it would cause a threat to power. If people can interface their brains with equipment, whats stopping them from becoming a bunch of vigilante super soldiers, controlling firearms with hyper precision and bionic suits with their minds?