Blue Alps?

A_Person

29 Apr 2021, 07:30

Based on what I've heard throughout the vintage keyboard enthusiast community, this is a difficult question to answer as the answer in question varies a lot based on certain factors, which, as I might add, are pretty much completely random, but I encourage more knowledgable people than myself to try and answer it. Is there any good way to find blue alps switches? This can include finding old keyboards discarded by others(although I don't know who would throw away a blue alps kb based on what I've heard(literally :lol: ) and seen about these switches), or being able to find them for cheap, and/or something completely different. Keep in mind, your answer doesn't have to be perfect and I would be happy to recieve any information you have on the topic, as I am not planning to put blue alps in a keyboard anytime soon unless I find a great opportunity, and this is just for furthur reference/curiosity. Thank you!

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Muirium
µ

29 Apr 2021, 09:32

Patience. Much patience.

Keep a very close eye on what the blue snipers are up to. They often share model names and stuff after they’ve bought them. Spread a wide net, and don’t give up when you don’t get what you want.

Besides, you’ll likely gather some other awesome vintage switches by accident along the way. And some lousy ones too. It’s like what the Buddha said about a box of chocolates, or whatever it was. Expect nothing! Let them come to you.

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Myoth

29 Apr 2021, 15:16

A_Person wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 07:30
Based on what I've heard throughout the vintage keyboard enthusiast community, this is a difficult question to answer as the answer in question varies a lot based on certain factors, which, as I might add, are pretty much completely random, but I encourage more knowledgable people than myself to try and answer it. Is there any good way to find blue alps switches? This can include finding old keyboards discarded by others(although I don't know who would throw away a blue alps kb based on what I've heard(literally :lol: ) and seen about these switches), or being able to find them for cheap, and/or something completely different.
Mate, it's the same game for everyone, I don't know what makes you think there's some kind of cheat code, but it's really just the same game for everyone. It's a game where your knowledge is the DT wiki and the one you get with the years and loads of time to camp on ebay or whatever site you think has the best chances of having one of these boards listed

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Bjerrk

29 Apr 2021, 15:29

Yeah, it's not tremendously complicated, but requires some patience.
I bought a keyboard with what turned out to be nice, clean blue Alps switches for 35 bucks or so off eBay. I just got lucky. The guy didn't know what he had, put it up for 60 bucks, I made an offer for 35 (almost hubris, when you think of it ... ). And here I am, happily clicking away.

However, there are some things which help tremendously when browsing for keyboards, IMO.
* Learn to quickly recognize the signs (design-wise) that a keyboard may be rubber dome over membrane.
* Learn to quickly recognize if a keyboard belongs to a certain era
* Familiarize yourself with the most common models which have interesting switches
* Familiarize yourself with the physical layouts of the keyboards you're interested in. There are some things that many (but not all) blue Alps boards (for instance) have in common.

A_Person

29 Apr 2021, 15:58

These are the xact answers I was looking for, thanks! Some criticism:
Myoth wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 15:16
A_Person wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 07:30
Based on what I've heard throughout the vintage keyboard enthusiast community, this is a difficult question to answer as the answer in question varies a lot based on certain factors, which, as I might add, are pretty much completely random, but I encourage more knowledgable people than myself to try and answer it. Is there any good way to find blue alps switches? This can include finding old keyboards discarded by others(although I don't know who would throw away a blue alps kb based on what I've heard(literally :lol: ) and seen about these switches), or being able to find them for cheap, and/or something completely different.
Mate, it's the same game for everyone, I don't know what makes you think there's some kind of cheat code, but it's really just the same game for everyone. It's a game where your knowledge is the DT wiki and the one you get with the years and loads of time to camp on ebay or whatever site you think has the best chances of having one of these boards listed
To which I respond, I didn't think there would be, I just wanted to see what kind of answers people would give me, and also maybe there would be some useful skills that I would be told to pick up, which you did with your statement of the DT wiki, and also just curiosity. I didn't think that there would be a surefire way to find them, but if there was for some reason, then I would be pleasantly surprised.

A_Person

29 Apr 2021, 15:59

Some skills that I would be advised to pick up:
Bjerrk wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 15:29
Yeah, it's not tremendously complicated, but requires some patience.
I bought a keyboard with what turned out to be nice, clean blue Alps switches for 35 bucks or so off eBay. I just got lucky. The guy didn't know what he had, put it up for 60 bucks, I made an offer for 35 (almost hubris, when you think of it ... ). And here I am, happily clicking away.

However, there are some things which help tremendously when browsing for keyboards, IMO.
* Learn to quickly recognize the signs (design-wise) that a keyboard may be rubber dome over membrane.
* Learn to quickly recognize if a keyboard belongs to a certain era
* Familiarize yourself with the most common models which have interesting switches
* Familiarize yourself with the physical layouts of the keyboards you're interested in. There are some things that many (but not all) blue Alps boards (for instance) have in common.
This was very useful and I couldn't thank you enough, Bjerkk, you have always been super helpful on this forum, thanks again!

A_Person

29 Apr 2021, 16:01

And from Muirium, as always, some plain old good advice:
Muirium wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 09:32
Patience. Much patience.

Keep a very close eye on what the blue snipers are up to. They often share model names and stuff after they’ve bought them. Spread a wide net, and don’t give up when you don’t get what you want.

Besides, you’ll likely gather some other awesome vintage switches by accident along the way. And some lousy ones too. It’s like what the Buddha said about a box of chocolates, or whatever it was. Expect nothing! Let them come to you.
Plus a cool pronoun I didn't know about before*


*and that's saying something because I read a lot of books

A_Person

29 Apr 2021, 16:01

All in all, thanks everyone!

(I would still welcome any further answers though, because information is priceless)

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fohat
Elder Messenger

29 Apr 2021, 18:22

A_Person wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 16:01
Muirium wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 09:32

Keep a very close eye on what the blue snipers are up to. They often share model names and stuff after they’ve bought them. Spread a wide net, and don’t give up when you don’t get what you want.

Besides, you’ll likely gather some other awesome vintage switches by accident along the way. And some lousy ones too. It’s like what the Buddha said about a box of chocolates, or whatever it was. Expect nothing! Let them come to you.
Plus a cool pronoun I didn't know about before
What pronoun is that?

It took me about 2 years to get a keyboard with blue Alps, but then I got 2 more within a year. Leading Edge 2014 is possibly the easiest to find that is certain to have blue Alps, at least in the US. Otherwise, there are many keyboards that might or might not have them, and sellers are often reluctant to pull a key cap.

In my opinion, the Leading Edge 2014 exists as a donor, it is not something that I would or could use regularly. If you want a really good keyboard, you will need something to put them in, and the Northgate Omnikeys have the best bodies, hands down. Also the 101 is straight-ANSI if that is what you prefer.

Other options exist, for example I got a like-new Omnikey 101 and an excellent Apple Extended Keyboard, and I put the orange sliders and springs into the white bodies without even desoldering the switches. That is a wonderful keyboard that I rotate in fairly often.

A_Person

29 Apr 2021, 18:28

[/quote]

What pronoun is that?


[/quote]


Idk but I think that the "thing buddha said about a box of chocolates" was it.

A_Person

29 Apr 2021, 18:29

Also, thanks for the advice about the leading edge 2014, and I almost certainly will be using it as a donor if I ever get my hands on one, for a multitude of reasons, but thanks anyway.

A_Person

29 Apr 2021, 18:34

I have pretty much searched up every kb on the dt wiki on ebay and nothing came up so it looks like I'll just have to keep looking! Wish me luck!

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hellothere

29 Apr 2021, 19:09

Check out viewtopic.php?f=66&p=484877 and, really, all of the topics in viewforum.php?f=11. I'm one of the members of the Blue Alps Club only because I found the keyboard was posted in Great/Interesting finds.

I don't think it was mentioned, so I'll mention it: most keyboards came with a bunch of different switches, so if you don't see a switch pictured, ask for a up-close picture. As an easy example, the first generation, gold-label, Omni Key came with either blue Alps (say, 2/3rds of the time) OR white Alps. Later OmniKeys had white Alps. Really late OmniKeys had simplified white Alps. Note that there are some blue Alps clones out there, too. You also had blue Alps made by Forward Electronics.

Also note that very early white Alps switches feel a lot like blue Alps. As far as I've been able to tell, the main difference is the spring -- blue is heavier -- and the slider. The early white switches have the Alps logo on the bottom of the switch, have stainless steel/silver-colored springs, and the bottom housing is slightly different. Yes, blue is a bit better, but if you have to choose between an $800 blue Alps KB (there's one on ebay right now) and a $50 early white Alps KB in equal condition, go for the $50 one and see how much you like it.

I don't know how many switches you've tried. You might be happier with a tactile keyboard, like an orange or salmon Alps, or linear, like a yellow, green, or brown Alps. You also might prefer an IBM model F or Model M.

A_Person

29 Apr 2021, 19:57

I have so far only 2 switch types, both modern. box pale blues, and box royals. So far, this is what I like about each switch:

Royals. I looooooooooooooooooooooooooooove the huge amount of tactility that are in those switches. I bet there are more tactile switches, but even to me, I can tell that they are pretty tactile compared to most switches(at least modern ones). And I love that. I love the sharp, really noticable tactile feedback that they present, and honestly I can't stop typing away on them(I haven't soldered anything yet, just put them in the plate*)

Pale blues. I really do like the clicky noise, and I think that it would be really cool, but I would like it to be deeper if possible. I think that the tactility is very lackluster, and it is a tad heavy for me, but I suppose that is because I have never typed on mechanical keyboards before and that I am used to bottoming out, so I will eventually not need to press the key down as far and it will require less force.

I have some box jades on the way, and I hope that they will be good.

I might try some of those early white alps, thx for that advice. Thanks for the links too!




*I am handwiring my kb so no pcbs for me.

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Palatino

29 Apr 2021, 22:22

A_Person wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 18:28
What pronoun is that?


[/quote]


Idk but I think that the "thing buddha said about a box of chocolates" was it.
[/quote]

You mean 'proverb', not 'pronoun'.

Extra tip: if you're asking an eBay seller to remove a keycap, get him to send you the picture if possible, not post it on the listing. It once happened that I requested a picture of the switch, he added it to the main listing, it was Blue Alps, and it went within minutes. The pain is just beginning to ease!

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Muirium
µ

29 Apr 2021, 22:43

Blues snipers is not a pronoun? Aw! ;)

As for the proverb: it’s a mashup of two real sources. One is the Bhagavad Gita (best known for its line about ten thousand suns, popularised in America by Oppenheimer, though I prefer the version where his first reaction was “thank god, it works!”) and Forrest Gump, a philosopher who knows the value of the chocolates left behind.

Buddha’s not in it. But c’mon, he’s always there.

A_Person

29 Apr 2021, 23:00

Yep. I had a brain fart there. Mixed up proverb with pronoun.

motoko

29 Apr 2021, 23:44

Start learning all the make and model numbers (and OEM variants) of boards with blue alps; then bookmark searches for them, and research their going rate. Establish a price range for each, then see if you want to pay that or wait to snipe something underpriced. That's pretty much it.

The early/late White Alps pointer above is good. White Alps boards go for half or less the cost of a blue alps board. And within those will be early vs late White Alps, for more or less the same prices, but most would agree early White Alps in good condition are nicer than late White Alps in the same condition.

Again, you need to learn make and model numbers of boards and be able to guestimate their condition from pictures and close-ups, e.g. it's highly unlikely if a board looks like it has been run over by a bus and burned with a cigarette lighter, that the switches will be OK.

If you're not just going to treat a board as a donor, then you want to think about key layout, build quality, connection protocol and quality of keycaps - the whole package.

A_Person

30 Apr 2021, 05:08

"Yep" is all I can say. Thanks for the good advice everyone, and I think I generally have the gist of how to find retro switchest that are rare, or any rare thing in general.

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Tritian

30 Apr 2021, 08:20

A_Person wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 05:08
I generally have the gist of how to find retro switchest that are rare, or any rare thing in general.
Yes, but can you find the rarest thing of all?
Spoiler:
true love

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TNT

30 Apr 2021, 09:49

Tritian wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 08:20
A_Person wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 05:08
I generally have the gist of how to find retro switchest that are rare, or any rare thing in general.
Yes, but can you find the rarest thing of all?
Spoiler:
true love
It isn't rare. It's impossible to find... Because it doesn't exist.
Wake up, Sheeple! True love hasn't been spotted in any major and minor civilization for the past 6000 years. Only a fool would continue to waste his and other people's time trying to find it.

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Palatino

30 Apr 2021, 10:24

motoko wrote:
29 Apr 2021, 23:44
Start learning all the... model numbers... and research their going rate... then see if you want to pay that... you need to be able to guestimate their condition from pictures and close-ups... it's highly unlikely if a [model] looks like [she] has been run over by a bus and burned with a cigarette lighter, that [she] will be OK... you want to think about... build quality... and quality of the whole package.
And if it is true love you're after, I wouldn't recommend this method for a lasting relationship ;)

Rayndalf

30 Apr 2021, 11:51

I had a [board] with a cigarette burn and she turned out ok. You can't always find perfect (given your budget, geographic location or eccentric taste), but avoid [boards] that look like they've spent most of their life yellowing in the sun at the frontdesk of an motel before it abruptly closed and all they've had to shield themselve from the elements in a pile of damp newspaper which is later stolen by a particularly determined squirrel.

Or do. Space invader boards will still work after you bury them <I'll find the link to that post tomorrow>. Alps... not so much.

It's worth buying from someone you trust. Don't try to save $40 on switches that are total trash.

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Bjerrk

30 Apr 2021, 13:32

Rayndalf wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 11:51
I had a [board] with a cigarette burn and she turned out ok. You can't always find perfect (given your budget, geographic location or eccentric taste), but avoid [boards] that look like they've spent most of their life yellowing in the sun at the frontdesk of an motel before it abruptly closed and all they've had to shield themselve from the elements in a pile of damp newspaper which is later stolen by a particularly determined squirrel.
Indeed - the blue Alps keyboard I found was not particularly clean either, but the switches were good. I've had other Alps boards that superficially looked OK, but had bad switches.

What's important is that the motel receptionist was a particularly lazy one, who didn't actually type on the keyboard while dirty. Similarly, the squirrel can have the ragged newspapers, as long as he doesn't jump around on the keys too much.

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Muirium
µ

30 Apr 2021, 13:36

It's really more of a phone job than a computer job. Leave that thing be!

Image

A_Person

30 Apr 2021, 15:53

I just came back to look at what people have posted, and.... I am very confused at what is going on here :D

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joebeazelman

30 Apr 2021, 17:18

Remember, there were literally millions of keyboards with Blue Alps manufactured. While a good number of them are buried in landfills, there are still a ton of them hidden away in attics and garages. Surprisingly, they are among the more common SKCMs you can find, certainly not as rare as vintage Pine Blacks, Salmons, undampened Creams or even some SKCM clones.

The perceived dearth of Blue Alps switches stems primarily from the insanely high demand for them, which drives up the prices beyond what most people are willing to pay. Frankly, Blue Alps are great, but personally they're not my favorite Alps switch. Amber Alps are more tactile and stiffer. Orange Alps are less tactile and lighter. I prefer them to Blue alps, but the vintage pine Black Alps, however, are my favorite! They feature a fairly stiff actuation force with a unique and delightful tactile feel. Unfortunately, you rarely find them in good condition, which may explain why they're not more popular. When ultrasonically cleaned and lubed, they rival the very best of the Alps switches.

I highly recommend you keep an open mind and try other switches such as the SKCM, SKCL and SMK 2nd generation switches while hunting for Blue Alps. While Blue Alps are definitely popular, one size doesn't fit all. I keep several keyboards with different switches on rotation to keep from getting board with the same switch. Every once in a while, I'll even switch over to a rubber dome for a few days to lower my tolerance even further. It turns an otherwise ho-hum Alps experience into an orgasmic one.

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hellothere

30 Apr 2021, 18:38

joebeazelman wrote:
30 Apr 2021, 17:18
I highly recommend you keep an open mind and try other switches such as the SKCM, SKCL and SMK 2nd generation switches while hunting for Blue Alps. While Blue Alps are definitely popular, one size doesn't fit all.
While they're more difficult to find, SMK 2nd generation ("Monterey blue") and NEC blue oval switches are pretty nice. Both remind me of different percentage mixtures of Alps clicky and IBM Model M. If you want much harder to find -- and this is one other clicky I want to try -- go Omron B3G-S amber. I hear the tactility in those is outstanding. There's also a clicky Hall Effect switch from Ace Pad Tech that I'm trying to resist buying. The extreme goodness that is my salmon Alps keyboard is keeping me from doing that.

Note that the SMK, NEC, and Omron switches aren't anywhere near as user-friendly as Alps to open and clean.

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joebeazelman

21 Jan 2022, 21:00

Intriguing. I've never tried the Omrons, but everything I've heard about them are in agreement with you. It's considered to be one of the most tactile switches ever made, with a few claiming it goes over the top. It's kind of hard for me to imagine too much tactility, since tactile switches are my favorite.

It makes me wonder if Omrons were trying to emulate the Amber orange, which in turn was trying to emulate the hairpin switch used in the very first batches of the Apple //c. To the surprise of many here, hairpin switches are similar to the Alps amber and I suspect it may have been specially made for the //c. It's a very tactile switch with a nice abrupt bottoming to them. They are worth trying as well if you can find them in decent condition.

I will definitely add the Omron Ambers to my shopping list. Thanks.
Last edited by joebeazelman on 21 Jan 2022, 21:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Bjerrk

21 Jan 2022, 21:03

joebeazelman wrote:
21 Jan 2022, 21:00
I will definitely add the Moron Ambers to my shopping list. Thanks.
Harsh :D

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