Buckling Spring Heresy!

SunshineRag_DT

25 May 2021, 04:20

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First post so please be gentle. I would like to present my CAN-5001W. Wait, I just heard the collective groans from all the oldtimers, Chyrosran already reviewed these Cantech/Syncan keyboards, they are cheap Chinese buckling spring knock-offs of the IBM Model M switch technology with awful keyfeel, yada yada. Yawn, moving on.... But if you can hold on for a bit I might be able to add a tidbit or 2 you may not know.

First I would like to say that I own and use a Model M (1391401) so I know what a buckling spring really feels like. Second I actually have had a couple of these Cantech keyboards because they were interesting to me, so I have seen and felt what they are like over multiple keyboards. Finally I wanted to make a post that added something to the community knowledge so hopefully I can share something interesting.

So what can I add? Well I have never seen a discussion of the different versions of these Cantech/Syncan keyboards and the fact that there are first generation and second generation hammers. The first generation hammers were white or clear with a large lip in the front. The second generation hammers are clear without a lip, basically flat like the IBM hammers (but much smaller). Chyrosran seem to have reviewed a very early model with the first gen hammers that you see in his video, also the keyboard uses a hideous font on the function key and lock light text. Both the font and the hammers tell me the one he reviewed was a pretty early version.

First Gen Cantech Hammer
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Second Gen Cantech Hammer
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Another interesting thing are the springs themselves. All Cantech/Syncan springs have a tight winding section at the bottom near where they connect to the hammer. I think the spring design was actually the main patented feature of the technology. I think the tight winding at the bottom of the spring reduces the buckle force, but maybe someone can add in the appropriate spring science to make sense of it. Model M springs are consistent all the way up.

First generation hammers were very loud as you can tell from the Chyrosran video. Second generation hammers are MUCH quieter, quieter than the sound of a Model M. I think that lip and winding position on the first generation really increased the sound of the spring snap, the spring would buckle right into it, and I suspect they realized it was way to loud so they removed it on the second generation.

Travel is about 4mm with actuation around the middle at 2mm. Actuation force on these is much less than an Model M about 55g. This is likely due to the spring design. This was the major positive Chyrosran noted that if the keyboard was a little better executed the key weight is more daily usable than a Model M.

Cantech Calc Function
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Finally what about this specific keyboard? For starters my keyboard is actually fairly rare example for a couple reasons. I think this keyboard was one of the last models before Cantech dropped this technology around 1996. It has 2 distinct features. First notice the ANSI layout and that Enter key. I might have seen one other example that has it but almost all the Cantech keyboards I see out there have a big-ass Enter or Iso Enter. The other thing is you will notice is it is a calculator model, which is much less common. But even more interesting, it is a WORKING calculator model, and may be the only working one in the wild. I say this because I know for a fact that after 25 years none of these calculator models will be working properly unless someone has modified them, and I doubt anyone but me would have taken the time. There is a NiCD battery soldered on the circuit board and these will degrade, outgas and become fuzzy. I cant imagine that there are any that are in wild that are still working without fixing that. Additionally the outgassing will eat the circuit board, LCD and membrane over time. So I suspect most of these calculator versions where destroyed electronically after a decade or two. I had to clean up the traces on the membrane near the battery with conductive tape and replace the NiCD with a Lithium 2025 button cell holder and battery, and even had to remove about 1/5 of the button holder to get it to fit. I was lucky that the circuit only had surface corrosion and one bad trace to bodge. Although the calculator might seem useless if you have the Calc app icon handy or macro'd, I work in a field where a simple addition or multiplication every once in a while is actually a timesaver as you can use the "Screen" function and it actually copies the output from the keyboard by emitting the answer as keystrokes and basically works like a paste from the keyboard. A very little thing that probably most people would not care about, but is helpful in what I do. I actually use it alot.

Furry Battery
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Button Cell Mod
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Whew, probably got the TLDR by now from most folks but if you made it this far here is the heresy! Actually with a little work this specific keyboard is really fairly nice, for a daily driver. I PREFER it to the Model M for daily typing, for tactility, and sound and actuation force. Sure, the build feels a little cheap and flimsy, but with the second generation hammers, and fixing the lube, it really comes to its own. Certainly you have to do a little work. From the factory there is lube everywhere, not as bad as Chyrosran's video but still alot in "some" keys. I think it gets squirted in per key and there is more than some keys than others, which is what creates uneven key feel and sound from the factory. Some keys seem flooded with lube, others just fine, some with nothing. If you take it as is the keyfeel is uneven and off-putting. You have to clean all that up and then lube the slides. The slide/stem design tends to be scratchy but a proper lube cleans most of that up, you can feel it slightly but with lube even that right shift is perfectly fine.

Is it worth the effort? For me it was, but YMMV. I hope this was an interesting post, apologies for the length.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

25 May 2021, 04:31

Interesting. I have had a couple of these over the years but didn't like them and sold them off.

These rare 2nd-generation variants look to be much better and now I am curious to try one.

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Rami

25 May 2021, 05:20

Nice work on that battery mod! Those NiCd batteries are such a pain. Had one of my vintage computers wrecked by one.

I've actually never come across any buckling spring keyboards other than IBMs and I'd love to try some of these Cantech ones someday. How to they compare?

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Polecat

25 May 2021, 05:35

Thanks for sharing this! I have one of the early examples, which I saved it because it was interesting, more of a novelty than anything else. I've never used it other than to see if it actually worked (it did). I like the Focus layout, so perhaps I'll dig it out and give it another try.

edit: how did you keep the 5 volts from trying to charge the lithium cell? I once had a (Mac) lithium memory battery erupt, for no apparent reason, what a mess that made!

SunshineRag_DT

25 May 2021, 09:01

Polecat, yes that is probably important. Schottky diode below in front of the positive end of cell holder, voltage drop looks to be ok to hold the clock. Current goes out but cant go in. If you dont care about holding the clock you can probably remove the battery completely. The batteries are only on the Calc models, so on something like the CAN-3001W without the calculator, you would not have to worry about it.

Rami, to be honest all these keyboards are fairly rough from the factory. The randomness of the lube makes the key sound and tactility a mess out of the gate. It is very weird out of the box with key feel varying from key to key. You have to want to go through the hassle of cleaning all that out an relubing manually which is a chore. I think if they had better quality control for the lube, and a slightly improved stem and slider design to fix a bit of the scratchiness I really think this could have been a reasonable option for some to a Model M.

One last comment on where key feel winds up with second gen hammers after reworking the lube. Maybe to put it in terms of
MX, basically you get something that is more tactile than an MX brown (not saying much, anything would be better), and quieter but still clicky like a MX blue. I really like it. The feel is nowhere near a quality Model M that just gives that firm and powerful response for typing, but that is a little stiff and loud for my office usage. This gives a nice, but not over the top, gentle snap and click. It is really different from anything else I can think of. You can hear and feel the buckle but not be overwhelmed by it. And 55g of actuation is just right for me.

Likely not worth the effort for most folks but with work might have its place for a few.

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Muirium
µ

25 May 2021, 11:37

The IBM it reminds me of is the Model M2. I've always quite liked those. No lighter than "M1", however, so this still has that edge.

Oh, another buckling spring worth checking out is Brother. I've never had one but I've heard good things from those who do. Including even tasty IBMs with Brother inside!

4_404

26 May 2021, 09:19

I have one of these. It's a TK-M501C, but is totally different to the wiki example (wiki/Syncan_TK-M501C). Mine doesn't have the screen or any other fancy features, and in general is very conservatively styled.
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When I first got this board, I was amazed at how different it was from the model that Chyros reviewed. It is not very loud or rattly, and in fact was very smooth, apart from a couple of keys that had very bad binding, which was fixed with cleaning. Sure enough, it uses the 'Gen 2' hammers. However, my board is winkeyless, and has a 1993 controller date with 1992 on the controller PCB. To me this casts some doubt on the these being a later hammer design, as this board with 'Gen 2' is clearly older than the board with 'Gen 1' reviewed.
Spoiler:
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The board itself is pretty thick, and certainly looks mechanical. There is a metal plate plate behind the membrane, screwed into the barrel plate. The barrels plate is black, and the barrels themselves are different as well, and allow the springs to be inserted facing up or down. Despite these different barrels, the keycap mount is the same, and the keycaps are the same as those on the wiki, unfortunately just pad printed.
Spoiler:
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By far the strangest thing about this keyboard though is that it uses a dummy white ALPS switch, complete with logo, as the upper stabiliser for the BAE. It's actually just a top housing and slider, with no spring. The top housing clips into an integrated bottom 'housing' which is part of the plastic plate.
Spoiler:
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All in all, this board is significantly better in build, keyfeel and sound than the TK-105M reviewed, but it retains most of the same advantages, making it a much more real alternative to the Mode M. To echo the sentiments of the OP, I also PREFER this to my Model Ms for every day use. The M still obviously has much better build, and the switches on my good ones are slightly smoother, but not enough to overcome the lighter Syncan weighting, which I like better.
Last edited by 4_404 on 27 May 2021, 14:35, edited 1 time in total.

SunshineRag_DT

26 May 2021, 17:27

You certainly could be right and both hammers existed in parallel. These were rebranded a lot and maybe hammer choice was a branding option. I think there were also a Tawain and Canadian factories so maybe that is a factor too. But "gen 2" hammers are far and away nicer.

Edit: Dang I just saw that separate black barrel plate, that is a new one for me. I think I have only seen white integrated barrels. And that barrel design looks like it would be less scratchy since there would be less surface area for the stem to contact. So much variation in these boards, they must have been trying alot of different things. They might have eventually settled on something reasonable if the lube quality control was better to make these boards more consistent in feel.

SunshineRag_DT

26 May 2021, 20:25

@4_404, one other very interesting thing that I have to comment on. Do you notice that your springs seem UPSIDE DOWN as that tight winding section is positioned by the hammers in every other instance I have seen. Did you flip them over or was it that way from the factory? Thanks for sharing your example because this seems to be something new.

4_404

27 May 2021, 14:34

SunshineRag_DT wrote:
26 May 2021, 17:27
You certainly could be right and both hammers existed in parallel. These were rebranded a lot and maybe hammer choice was a branding option. I think there were also a Tawain and Canadian factories so maybe that is a factor too. But "gen 2" hammers are far and away nicer.

Edit: Dang I just saw that separate black barrel plate, that is a new one for me. I think I have only seen white integrated barrels. And that barrel design looks like it would be less scratchy since there would be less surface area for the stem to contact. So much variation in these boards, they must have been trying alot of different things. They might have eventually settled on something reasonable if the lube quality control was better to make these boards more consistent in feel.
I forgot to share the label. Mine proudly states it's made in Malaysia. Not sure if that helps or complicates things.
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I did think about this barrel design having less friction. For what it's worth, from the couple of switches I lubricated, only the four corners of the rectangular keycap stem make contact with the barrel. Lubricant applied to the pair of middle rails does not rub off onto the keycap, so I'd say these middle rails are just there to hold the spring/hammer in place. The label does have the standard patent numbers that all of these boards seem to have though.
SunshineRag_DT wrote:
26 May 2021, 20:25
@4_404, one other very interesting thing that I have to comment on. Do you notice that your springs seem UPSIDE DOWN as that tight winding section is positioned by the hammers in every other instance I have seen. Did you flip them over or was it that way from the factory? Thanks for sharing your example because this seems to be something new.
I did not notice the upside down springs. These are exactly as they were from the factory. Out of interest, I reversed a couple of the springs, and most of them functioned just the same, although they did sound a bit more clattery and less pingy, but that may just be me looking for something different. They springs are pretty fragile though, and the tolerances must be reasonably tight, as I pulled one spring slightly too much, and now it doesn't click either normally or reversed, even though it looks identical to the rest of the good springs to my eye.

For further experimentation, I tried putting the hammer in the lower part of the slider. Sure enough, this works if you reverse the keycap direction as well, so on this board you can type with upside down keycaps, if you're so inclined. Sadly, the stabiliser prevents reversing the spacebar, so dreams of meme spacebar buckling spring will have to remain dreams for now.

SunshineRag_DT

27 May 2021, 15:29

I have poppped springs off before and fyi I believe there is a lip on the bottom to set it. So you can pop it off without pulling the spring using you fingernails to unseat it from this lip. Also if they aren't buckling push down with fingernails to reset on this lip. Dont know if it will help but that has worked for for me when I thought I broke a spring playing around.

Also I highly suspect the sticker will say "Made in Taiwan" under that Malaysia sticker as it looks just like mine. But maybe they licensed the tech as that barrel plate is different from any known example I have ever seen myself or online. Will take a pic of my sticker when I get a chance.

4_404

27 May 2021, 16:30

SunshineRag_DT wrote:
27 May 2021, 15:29
I have poppped springs off before and fyi I believe there is a lip on the bottom to set it. So you can pop it off without pulling the spring using you fingernails to unseat it from this lip. Also if they aren't buckling push down with fingernails to reset on this lip. Dont know if it will help but that has worked for for me when I thought I broke a spring playing around.

Also I highly suspect the sticker will say "Made in Taiwan" under that Malaysia sticker as it looks just like mine. But maybe they licensed the tech as that barrel plate is different from any known example I have ever seen myself or online. Will take a pic of my sticker when I get a chance.
Yeah I worked out the thing about the lip on the bottom after a couple. Fortunately, I think you were right and it wasn't seated properly, as after pressing the key a bunch, it appears to be behaving correctly now.

It look like there is writing under the Malaysia sticker, but it appears to be just the FCC ID. I can't see it that well though.

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Polecat

28 May 2021, 03:16

Dug mine out, and it is the same as 4_404's except for the lack of branding on mine. Key feel is smooth and consistent. I'd describe it as a lighter Model F. No sign of overlubing. The springs on mine also have the bunched end facing up, with a black barrel plate, and Gen2 hammers. The most interesting thing to me is being able to install the caps in two ways by tilting the whole keyboard, to give either clicky or linear action. Assuming that's what the instruction sheet in the wiki is suggesting as I haven't confirmed that it actually works in "non-clicky non-tactile" mode.
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SunshineRag_DT

28 May 2021, 08:44

Now I want one of those black barrel models, they seem the most refined. I have 3 and they all are integrated white barrels. I will have to flip the springs and see a side by side sound difference.

Here is my model label, which is a Key Touch brand.
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I just dived down a rabbit hole by digging further and cannot believe how much variation there is with Cantech buckling spring technology.
As far as I can tell there is not a sign on the internet until now of the black barrel version, but we have two examples right here. This technology must have been rebranded all over the place. It might still be sold in Eastern Europe and Russia. I am actually amazed how far this thing went.
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Bjerrk

28 May 2021, 08:49

SunshineRag_DT wrote:
28 May 2021, 08:44
Now I want one of those black barrel models, they seem the most refined. I have 3 and they all are integrated white barrels. I will have to flip the springs and see a side by side sound difference.

I just dived down a rabbit hole by digging further and cannot believe how much variation there is with Cantech buckling technology.
And these all have integrated barrels, and as far as I can tell there is not a sign on the internet of the black barrel version, but we have two examples right here. This technology must have been rebranded all over the place. It might still be sold in Eastern Europe and Russia. I am actually amazed how far this thing went.
Hmm, there seems to be an important difference between the Mitsumi and the translucent one. The Mitsumi has less-than-full-size keycaps on the top row. This makes me sceptical about its buckling springiness :P

SunshineRag_DT

28 May 2021, 09:09

That is why I had a bit of doubt, BUT the shell screw attachment around the edge and 3 circuit screws are WAY too similar to be discounted. The 4 screws down the centerline of the backshell is a trademark of the Cantech boards. It is not a perfect match but much too similar to other Cantech boards to be discounted. That and it says outright that is it a IZITK-105M which is a Cantech FCC ID for these boards.

With the shocking amount of variation I am seeing I cannot discount a half key model, but I cannot imagine how that would work. Could be standard rubber dome for that row maybe. Note the media buttons model would definitely show that other key types were used.
Last edited by SunshineRag_DT on 28 May 2021, 09:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Bjerrk

28 May 2021, 09:19

SunshineRag_DT wrote:
28 May 2021, 09:09
That is why I had a bit of doubt, BUT the shell screw attachment around the edge and 3 circuit screws are WAY too similar to be discounted.
[...] not a perfect match but much too similar to other Cantech boards to be discounted. That and it says outright that is it a IZITK-105M which is a Cantech FCC ID for these boards.

With the shocking amount of variation I am seeing I cannot discount a half key model [...]
Oh, no, I am not arguing for discounting it :) Just that I would be a bit vary of buying one without any further confirmation.
On the other hand: "For keyboard science!" and all that :D
but I cannot imagine how that would work. Could be standard rubber dome for that row maybe. Note the media buttons model would definitely show that other key types were used.
Yes, it is a bit unclear. They also seem to have made models with some sort of MX clone switches, but since these buckling spring switches already incorporate a membrane, I guess the most likely bet is rubber domes. But, God, it would be weird having a buckling spring keyboard with rubber domes for the entire top row?!

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Tritian

28 May 2021, 17:43

Hello, I found these while browsing ebay... it's a TK-M501C under the brandname Identity

https://www.ebay.com/itm/114590164195

It's shaped like a Model M, but has omnikey-esque locklights and a focus layout.

Interesting...

SunshineRag_DT

28 May 2021, 19:03

@Tritian yeah have been watching these he is offering a couple Identity Systems branded ones. He has some cheaper at 40ish+shipping but that is still a bit pricey for me and I cant tell if they are gen1 or gen2 hammers. They are definitely not like Polecat's as you can tell they have an integrated white barrel. They have been there for at least 2 months. Unfortunately he is a volume seller and is shotgunning the prices to see where the level is and does not seem to negotiate to a price that I think is reasonable. There are also 2 models IDK-FM and IDK-FMW but heck if I can tell a difference. "W" usually means Windows but that is obviously not the case.

There is another one right now that I am pretty sure is gen2, but has a terrible picture (but new in box), and is Spanish key layout. It was my "secret" watch since I am more sure of this one a gen 2 since it is a Key Touch like two of mine and looks the same. But I already have 2 of those and dont need a Spanish one. FYI it has an AT connector and I can bet you it will be awash in lube so it will have a pretty inconsistent key feel out of the box.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/120897590785

Fyi I am pretty sure if anyone has a louder gen1 you can swap the hammers with each other, but I have yet to verify.

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Polecat

29 May 2021, 04:58

Just a couple more comments on these.

First, what's with the low serial numbers? The "translucent case" one is 200002, and the "media buttons" one is 200005!

Second, a couple more links to other examples posted here in the past:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10405&p=424221

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21646&p=442502

Third, I plugged mine in and tried it with a couple keycaps installed as "non tactile non clicky" and they do not work that way. I guess that's not surprising, and I was foolish to assume it was a user option rather than just the wrong way to install the caps. To install them properly ("tactile clicky") you need to tilt up the front of the keyboard by about 45 degrees when installing the caps, at least on some versions.

SunshineRag_DT

29 May 2021, 05:14

@Polecat, I have that exact instruction card and I dont think the interpretation is that you can turn these around as it would not be possible with the integrated barrels (they only go one way). The instruction on the card is basically what you state, ensure the spring is in the cap and properly seated or it wont work. If you flip the keycap in the integrated barrel the spring seating is all wrong and no buckle or keypress.

Now.... with your black barrels, you can flip the hammer since you have 2 cross locations. But to do it you would have to turn the keys upside down also, as noted by 4_404, to ensure seating against the top of the keycap for correct buckling. But it should still buckle just do it backward.

FYI did you catch my serial number 60,515,293.....

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Polecat

29 May 2021, 05:39

SunshineRag_DT wrote:
29 May 2021, 05:14
@Polecat, I have that exact instruction card and I dont think the interpretation is that you can turn these around as it would not be possible with the integrated barrels (they only go one way). The instruction on the card is basically what you state, ensure the spring is in the cap and properly seated or it wont work. If you flip the keycap in the integrated barrel the spring seating is all wrong and no buckle or keypress.

Now.... with your black barrels, you can flip the hammer since you have 2 cross locations. But to do it you would have to turn the keys upside down also, as noted by 4_404, to ensure seating against the top of the keycap for correct buckling. But it should still buckle just do it backward.

FYI did you catch my serial number 60,515,293.....
Exactly correct on all counts.

I made a bad assumption about being able to use the keyboard with the caps installed as "non clicky non tactile". I'll correct that in my old replies if it will let me.

I just flipped a couple of the hammers on mine, and flipped the caps to match, and it does indeed work that way (as clicky/tactile). No difference in the sound or feel that I can tell.

The serials don't make a lot of sense, but with enough examples some pattern may emerge.

SunshineRag_DT

29 May 2021, 06:17

@Bjerrk. I think I have solved the mystery of that Mitsumi keyboard with the Cantech FCC ID of FCC IZITK-105M. And sadly I dont think now it is buckling spring, but I suspect it is actually using a Cantech controller (or identical Cantech controller design) with a rubber dome over membrane, hence the same FCC ID. And I have a very good reason to suspect this other than the obvious FCC ID. In addition to the back shell and controller mounting being very Cantech like, there is the Fn key by the right shift and it does exactly what the Cantech Fn key does, Fn+F1-F8 sets repeat rate, and Fn+F12 is a keyboard lockout. But no discussion of click and the keys dont seem tall enough. And none of the other FQ models have that Fn key with such Cantech specific function.

This keyboard is still available for purchase as I found it as the Mitsumi Classic FQ100/KSX4 (only in Europe):
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LZ2HGU7
wiki/images/9/92/Mitsumi_Keyboards_FQ-F ... y_Line.pdf

If anyone in Europe has this board I would be interested to get a pic of the inside guts and controller, and see if this actually rubber dome and has the IZITK-105M FCC id.

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Polecat

29 May 2021, 06:40

Black barrel plate version, on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/402848693462

SunshineRag_DT

29 May 2021, 06:43

I like it, but I dont think I $180 like it.

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Polecat

29 May 2021, 06:56

SunshineRag_DT wrote:
29 May 2021, 06:43
I like it, but I dont think I $180 like it.
Make offer option on that one; can't hurt to ask.

4_404

29 May 2021, 14:54

The Can Tech history page on their website among other things mentions that a related factory/company/sub-brand President made both 'low-range keyboard... for Mitsumi' and 'rubber membrane keyboard for Logitech'. It doesn't say whether the keyboards they made for Mitsumi were mechanical or membrane, but given 'low-range' and the fact that they mention 'mechanical' on most of the other keyboards on that page, it seems implied to me that the Mitsumi boards they were making were rubber dome. http://www.can-tech.com.tw/html/history.html

As a side, it also mentions that the related company Precision Great Plastic (PGP) developed and produced a mechanical keyswitch for Acer. I only know of one Acer 'developed' switch...

SunshineRag_DT

29 May 2021, 19:50

That would be a kick if the Acer switch is Cantech design. I picked up an Acer board with those for 5 bucks from a recycling center, it was scratchy as heck.

It could be that any 90's board mechanical or not with that extra key after the right shift is likely a Cantech design. Other than the modern 60-70% craze with condensing the nav cluster into the shift key, I am hard pressed to think of any use of that key layout other than Cantech. Might explain that silly TurboTrax Turbo button who knows.

Anyone seen the Cantech designed TRUST mechanical keyboard mentioned?

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Polecat

29 May 2021, 20:23

SunshineRag_DT wrote:
29 May 2021, 19:50

It could be that any 90's board mechanical or not with that extra key after the right shift is likely a Cantech design. Other than the modern 60-70% craze with condensing the nav cluster into the shift key, I am hard pressed to think of any use of that key layout other than Cantech. Might explain that silly TurboTrax Turbo button who knows.
Do you mean specifically as a Fn key, or just having a key there in general? If the latter there are lots of non-Cantech examples. Focus, Northgate, Datacomp, DTK, Zenith all come to mind, and probably others.

SunshineRag_DT

29 May 2021, 20:55

That extra Fn key is very much a Cantech thing. Looking at their later model numbers they might have been copying Focus, for example my model is CAN-5001W is a calc model (too similar to FK-5001 calc model to say coincidence). Some of the "Turbo" buttons could be Cantech, as the Cantech Fn+F1-F8 set repeat rates like the Turbo keys. They also seemed to use "Power/Sleep/Wake" function buttons when Windows 95 rolled around which was only used on a couple of boards as far as I can tell.

You are correct the extra "\" after shift is pretty common layout so just having a key there doesn't mean anything but if it is a Fn key most certainly.

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