Soarers map for IBM model M - UK layout

Mips

03 Jun 2021, 17:03

Apologies for my ignorance, I'm new to all this.

I've just bought my first vintage keyboard - an almost mint silver badge 1987 model M and I'm loving it. The eBay seller converted it to USB with the Soarers converter. I'm trying to ascertain how the converter maps the inputs to the physical layout & ideally find a list or map that explains all the functionality.

As is, it maps the £ key to shift-3 (usually #) which is very useful as I'm in the UK. I guess that means Soarers is applying a default UK layout. Some of the other keys (symbols etc.) are mapped differently to the physical keys, but there's plenty others I don't know.

A link to a map or list would be very much appreciated.

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an_achronism

03 Jun 2021, 18:48

Mips wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 17:03
Apologies for my ignorance, I'm new to all this.

I've just bought my first vintage keyboard - an almost mint silver badge 1987 model M and I'm loving it. The eBay seller converted it to USB with the Soarers converter. I'm trying to ascertain how the converter maps the inputs to the physical layout & ideally find a list or map that explains all the functionality.

As is, it maps the £ key to shift-3 (usually #) which is very useful as I'm in the UK. I guess that means Soarers is applying a default UK layout. Some of the other keys (symbols etc.) are mapped differently to the physical keys, but there's plenty others I don't know.

A link to a map or list would be very much appreciated.
If you were in the US and thus set your keyboard layout in the OS to US English, Shift + 3 would be #. It's the OS determining the output from the scancodes received from the keyboard (converter), not the converter prescriptively forcing a £. So it doesn't default to a UK layout, you just have your OS set to one. Similarly, you could set your OS to French or something and it'd produce those outputs from the same input. I have a Spanish keyboard that has 1:1 layout for UK Enhanced if I have my OS in UK layout mode, which I do, for example.

You haven't mentioned the actual physical layout of the board which is somewhat important. You also haven't mentioned what the legends (symbols) are on the keys so I don't know what output you are expecting vs what I would expect based on key positions rather than legends (photo would help). I'm guessing, however, that you most likely are referring to a terminal rather than PC Model M, hence the Soarer conversion to USB (PC ones were usually PS/2 cable so don't really need converted) which would mean that the things printed on the keys are often irrelevant from the output they'd be mapped to on a PC layout, and to the output you'd need from them. There is no such thing as a "Field Exit" or "Field +" key for example on a PC.

I dunno about a layout map but as far as I know it is probably just 1:1 to standard Enhanced layouts because of scancodes. I can't personally confirm the exact defaults for every key on an Enhanced as I've so far only used the Soarer code on a very different keyboard but I'd recommend using hid_listen to work out which scancodes the converter is spitting out, checking the Soarer documentation to see what those pertain to, and then remapping them if they aren't suitable for the physical layout. That's all I did with mine, and I had to change a few for a 1:1 layout match, but I think that's more to do with it being a pre-1985 board with a less "standard" (for today) layout that the ones introduced by the Model M.

Also, jealous of your 1987 square badge M! Nice.

Mips

03 Jun 2021, 19:23

@an_achronism: Thanks so much for that - and I wouldn't be jealous of my model M, it doesn't have the indicator lights. I'm not sure, I think it's either a terminal version or one made for the older XT machines - a 1390636, a model number I haven't seen. I'd like to have the indicators, but the keyboard's in such good condition I can let that one go..

Great info, I hadn't thought of it but of course it's obvious that the OS would have a hand in the layout. Here's the keyboard.

Image

I tried HD-listen and got scancodes out & I'll look into how to translate those, thanks. Although I now have the feeling that I'm probably over complicating things here and should just leave it all alone & just enjoy the keyboard.

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Muirium
µ

03 Jun 2021, 19:52

Silver label. That’s likely a quality M you’ve got there. LEDs are for kiddies, enjoy the better keyfeel from an older model!

As for host computer complicating layouts: correct. Set your keyboard layout on the computer side before patching it at the keyboard end. Anachronism is quite right about £ vs. # and much more besides.

Mips

03 Jun 2021, 20:00

Cheers for that, I’ll look into it. I always seem to over-complicate things, much easier this way!

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fohat
Elder Messenger

03 Jun 2021, 20:13

I don't see anyone actually gave you a link, but maybe I missed it.

Soarer's Docs and in the first post in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=44332#p44332

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an_achronism

03 Jun 2021, 20:21

Mips wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 19:23
@an_achronism: Thanks so much for that - and I wouldn't be jealous of my model M, it doesn't have the indicator lights.
Almost none of them do. Because they were for terminals, and those didn't have lock lights. Set 1 ("XT") is entirely one-directional so can't communicate back to the keyboard to say "turn this LED on/off" and set 3 just doesn't seem to use it afaik.
Mips wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 19:23
I'm not sure, I think it's either a terminal version or one made for the older XT machines - a 1390636, a model number I haven't seen. I'd like to have the indicators, but the keyboard's in such good condition I can let that one go..

Great info, I hadn't thought of it but of course it's obvious that the OS would have a hand in the layout. Here's the keyboard.

Image
Aye that is indeed a US terminal model that would chatter away in scancode set 3 without the converter and your PC wouldn't know what the hell it was on about. So you'll find a few quirks if you want to have the OS in UK layout but because I've found this myself recently I can help a bit there.

Mainly, because US ANSI has no extra key to the right of LShift, you'll have problems with having both a #~ key and a \| key. But I just discovered last week that Alt Gr + the UK #~ key (which pertains to the \| on your US layout there) produces \|! So that's pretty handy info for using US boards with completely surrendering to US layout, if you so desired.

Feel free to chuck me a PM if you need anything but genuinely I think if you use the docs and hid_listen you'll come up with a layout you like easily enough!

I'm a big dirty Model F fanboy now but a square badgey one like this is the sort of M I'd still like to have. I think the only reason I didn't buy this one is the US layout, which isn't my preference (I'm an ISO guy).

Mips

03 Jun 2021, 23:10

an_achronism wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 20:21
Mainly, because US ANSI has no extra key to the right of LShift, you'll have problems with having both a #~ key and a \| key. But I just discovered last week that Alt Gr + the UK #~ key (which pertains to the \| on your US layout there) produces \|! So that's pretty handy info for using US boards with completely surrendering to US layout, if you so desired.
Cheers for that - learning all the time!
an_achronism wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 20:21
I'm a big dirty Model F fanboy now
Damnit I think I'm going that way too. Looking at Tom's video, I think I'm looking towards a 5170 for the better key layout, separate num keypad and nice big enter key. Are there disadvantages to the 5170 I should be aware of?

Either way, I have a feeling I'll have to wait a pretty long time for a clean one to come up and even then it'll be expensive. All the Fs I'm seeing at the moment aren't as clean as I'd like & look a bit battered. I'm happy to be patient and enjoy my M for now.

Although I hear the spacebar of the F isn't as good as the M and is a bit stiff - is it enough to be bothersome or do you not really notice it?

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Wazrach

03 Jun 2021, 23:23

Mips wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 23:10

Damnit I think I'm going that way too. Looking at Tom's video, I think I'm looking towards a 5170 for the better key layout, separate num keypad and nice big enter key. Are there disadvantages to the 5170 I should be aware of?

Either way, I have a feeling I'll have to wait a pretty long time for a clean one to come up and even then it'll be expensive. All the Fs I'm seeing at the moment aren't as clean as I'd like & look a bit battered. I'm happy to be patient and enjoy my M for now.

Although I hear the spacebar of the F isn't as good as the M and is a bit stiff - is it enough to be bothersome or do you not really notice it?
Perhaps I'm biased, but the XT layout isn't the worst thing in the world. It will probably just take a bit of adjustment before it feels comfortable. Your chances of finding an XT are greater than finding an AT, and the build quality is better. I would try and get a good deal on an XT before you try going for the more expensive and rare models.

The Models F with large spacebars do have heavy spacebars. Some of them are light enough when stock, whereas some are extremely stiff and tiring to use. To alleviate this, it's possible to bend the spacebar wire carefully to reduce the force required to press it. This does require disassembly of the keyboard module and you do risk making the spacebar sound rattly.

Mips

03 Jun 2021, 23:42

Cheers for that @Wazrach, good to know.

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an_achronism

04 Jun 2021, 00:41

Mips wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 23:42
Cheers for that @Wazrach, good to know.
I've been typing all these replies on my XT, so can confirm, layout is pretty good imo.

It does have its downsides, the main one for me being that it only has one rather than two modifier keys at the sides of the space bar (and an absurdly large space bar). Apart from that, I really don't have a problem with it, I really like this keyboard.

Image

Image

The space bar is indeed extremely heavy, some of the XTs in the wild now already have their space bar wires bent slightly to lessen the amount of actuation force required. Whilst I do think that it's a bit OTT, I personally would rather keep the board as it is and adjust *myself* to get used to it, rather than adjusting the keyboard to suit me, particularly given that it's a semi-destructive kind of modification (you can presumably bend it back to approximate the way it was to start with, but you'd likely not get it exactly the same as before). I think I'm quite a purist with this sort of thing in general though. I specifically wanted to make sure the XT I did buy didn't have the adjustment, and I'm glad I did, but holy crap you do need to hammer the thing to death for it to do anything, hahah.

Mips

04 Jun 2021, 01:16

an_achronism wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 00:41
I've been typing all these replies on my XT, so can confirm, layout is pretty good imo.
It looks like you have a really clean unit there too. No yellowing and I love the way the IBM badge looks so nicely preserved. I actually really like the look of the unusual keys, the aesthetic of the pre-standard adds to the retro/historical appeal.
an_achronism wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 00:41
The space bar is indeed extremely heavy
Does Ellipse’s new model F not appeal to you more then? Better space bar, modern key layout etc? Or do the original units appeal to you more for the authenticity etc.?

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an_achronism

04 Jun 2021, 01:27

I had already bought one of Ellipse's F77s before I bought the XT. Ahem. (It hasn't shipped yet though.)

I suspect that the F77 reproduction will quite possibly become my favourite keyboard.

The badge on this XT isn't as well preserved as it looks in that photo but it depends how the light hits it (there are some relatively heavy scratches but I knew that when I bought it). However, it is kind of amazing that the board has seen what I think is fairly heavy use by 2 generations of a family before getting to me, and it still works perfectly. A few battle scars seems fitting.

Mips

04 Jun 2021, 01:45

an_achronism wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 01:27
I suspect that the F77 reproduction will quite possibly become my favourite keyboard.
Hmm that says it all I think. I might end up saving up got one of these instead then. The F77 appeals to me the most as well. I like the more substantial look of having the numpad included and the fact that it resembles the originals.

I think I might prefer these over the compacts as the front of the compact seems quite abrupt and high compared to the standard ones. From the look of it the regular/non-compacts have a lower, more comfortable looking front lip. I wonder if the compacts are actually less comfortable or if it just looks that way from the images.

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an_achronism

04 Jun 2021, 01:56

Mips wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 01:45
an_achronism wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 01:27
I suspect that the F77 reproduction will quite possibly become my favourite keyboard.
Hmm that says it all I think. I might end up saving up got one of these instead then. The F77 appeals to me the most as well. I like the more substantial look of having the numpad included and the fact that it resembles the originals.

I think I might prefer these over the compacts as the front of the compact seems quite abrupt and high compared to the standard ones. From the look of it the regular/non-compacts have a lower, more comfortable looking front lip. I wonder if the compacts are actually less comfortable or if it just looks that way from the images.
I actually strongly dislike compact keyboards so I think my absolute limit for compact-ness is the F77 and original Model F (for the Datamaster and then Personal Computer, usually now referred to as the F "XT" because it also shipped with the PC XT later on). The "XT" keeps the num pad and just doesn't have the dedicated nav cluster, which I don't find to be an issue because you can still use all those functions with a quick Num Lock toggle. The F77 doesn't have enough keys for a proper num pad, but it can get pretty close. I think I'm going to go with something like this (not necessarily legend-wise, but function-wise):

Image

Mips

04 Jun 2021, 02:02

Looks fantastic.

I really like the look of the off white/beige option as it gives the feel of the original & I’d also be interested in all-black, but noticed that the non-compact F77 doesn’t have an option for black keys.

It’ll also be very interesting to see how these compare to Input Club’s beamsprings when they eventually come around. I just watched an interview with Haata & wow he knows his stuff. As he says the challenge is taking the feel of a giant IBM beamspring switch & putting it into an MX form factor.

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Bjerrk

04 Jun 2021, 12:32

an_achronism wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 01:27
I suspect that the F77 reproduction will quite possibly become my favourite keyboard.
I can never quite make my peace with it. Whenever I take it out, I love it, but the absolute racket usually begins to annoy me after a while.

Now, a Model F with the sound of Blue Alps. That'd be something!

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an_achronism

04 Jun 2021, 12:42

Bjerrk wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 12:32
an_achronism wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 01:27
I suspect that the F77 reproduction will quite possibly become my favourite keyboard.
I can never quite make my peace with it. Whenever I take it out, I love it, but the absolute racket usually begins to annoy me after a while.

Now, a Model F with the sound of Blue Alps. That'd be something!
Ahaha. I've been using an F for about a week or so now, barely notice the noise at this point... the only thing I don't get on with is the lack of a second modifier key on each side of space bar, really. And maybe the crazy heavy space bar, which I could see being the first thing that could conceivably give me RSI hahah.

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Bjerrk

04 Jun 2021, 12:53

an_achronism wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 12:42
Ahaha. I've been using an F for about a week or so now, barely notice the noise at this point...
I envy the deaf.
Even those with thumb RSI.

Mips

04 Jun 2021, 13:36

Bjerrk wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 12:32
Now, a Model F with the sound of Blue Alps. That'd be something!
I know nothing but just listened to this & they sound absolutely amazing. Loud though - if the F is louder then it must be deafening!

https://youtu.be/Tso1F8cOY6o

I'm guessing these blue alps don't feel as good as the model M or F though?

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Bjerrk

04 Jun 2021, 13:54

Mips wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 13:36
Bjerrk wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 12:32
Now, a Model F with the sound of Blue Alps. That'd be something!
I know nothing but just listened to this & they sound absolutely amazing. Loud though - if the F is louder then it must be deafening!

https://youtu.be/Tso1F8cOY6o

I'm guessing these blue alps don't feel as good as the model M or F though?
The Model F is certainly much louder. Blue Alps sound positively subdued next to a Model F.

Actually I'd say that Blue Alps feel just as good (but that's of course subjective). However the Model Fs have so many other strengths.
Fantastic build quality, very nice keycaps, extremely durable and serviceable etc. Alps switches, on the other hand, are frail little things. Sensitive to dirt, dust, wear and tear.

(Now, I am aware that I'm generalizing here, and even comparing a keyboard to a whole slew of other keyboards who happen to come with one particular type of switches.)

Mips

04 Jun 2021, 14:03

@Bjerrk Cheers, learning all the time.

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an_achronism

04 Jun 2021, 14:43

At this point I don't think I'll ever own a blue Alps board. The prices have inflated to the point of insanity now and I really don't care that much. I've got two Alps SKCM (Pine) White boards and neither is very nice, though they sound great.

Already bought three Model Fs though. Three and a half, really; got a NOS assembly without a cable or case as well. I think I'm in love...

Mips

04 Jun 2021, 14:57

NOS - nice!

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Bjerrk

04 Jun 2021, 15:49

an_achronism wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 14:43
At this point I don't think I'll ever own a blue Alps board. The prices have inflated to the point of insanity now and I really don't care that much.
Arh, sure you will. I got one in good condition for 35 bucks I believe, only a few months ago. Sometimes they just pop up, from a seller who isn't aware of what they have :)

Ellipse

20 Jun 2021, 00:13

Mips wrote:
04 Jun 2021, 02:02
Looks fantastic.

I really like the look of the off white/beige option as it gives the feel of the original & I’d also be interested in all-black, but noticed that the non-compact F77 doesn’t have an option for black keys.

It’ll also be very interesting to see how these compare to Input Club’s beamsprings when they eventually come around. I just watched an interview with Haata & wow he knows his stuff. As he says the challenge is taking the feel of a giant IBM beamspring switch & putting it into an MX form factor.
Brand New Model F project coordinator here. Regarding black keys, all keyboards can use any color key set, including the classic case F77. The only limitation is that the ISO Enter keys come from Unicomp as that is the only key I didn't order a new mold for, so the ISO Enter keys are only available in Pebble, Gray, and Green and not in my other key color offerings black, blue, or 60% Dark Gray. These ISO keys by the way are mailed to the factory so that the sublimation is all with the new XT quality sublimation process done for this project's key sets.

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