Advice on eBay purchase

Mips

06 Jun 2021, 19:48

Just to dip my toe in the waters I might just pick this up. Only thing is the space bar’s a little off, tilting backwards as though it’s been dislodged, rubbing against the keys above it.

Do you guys reckon it looks like it’ll just twist back into place or will it need the board taking apart & some surgery?

The rest of it looks fairly clean, but I’m not knowledgable enough to really know what to look for.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/15447158921 ... SwQfdgsX9i


EDIT: In photo 3 of 8 which shows the middle portion of the keyboard, there’s some darker markings across the paint if you zoom in. Does that look like dirt or paint damage?

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Tritian

06 Jun 2021, 20:33

any spacebar issue will be a more involved process to repair on an F XT or AT because those spacebars have an internal stabilizer wire that you have to take apart the barrel assembly to get too.

Yes I agree it looks odd, good eye.

btw that is an F XT not an F AT I thought you said you wanted.

F AT's are rarer and have a separated numpad area and are easier to mod, F XT's are built better but have a weirder layout that is not modable.

Mips

06 Jun 2021, 20:49

Tritian wrote:
06 Jun 2021, 20:33
Yes I agree it looks odd, good eye.

btw that is an F XT not an F AT I thought you said you
Thanks for that. Yes I want an AT ultimately but they’re so hard to come by, I thought I’d get an XT for the fun of it during the wait. The keyboard looks very good in other ways.

The feet extenders look to have no yellowing so it seems like it hasn’t had excess exposure to light. It’s in a box, not sure if that means it’s been in storage for a period. And the badge looks almost mint. I’m wondering if it’s worth giving it a go anyway as it’s not hugely expensive for a well preserved XT. The space bar would be the project of course.

What did you reckon about the paint discolouration? I’m thinking it could well be dirt but would be totally put off if it’s permanent, even if it is relatively subtle.

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Tritian

06 Jun 2021, 21:06

the spacebar could be a bit more than a simple project if its stab inserts that hold the wire have broken off. it will be very difficult sourcing a new spacebar for cheap. it's not a common issue but something you should be aware of.

also, just FYI, thats not its original box. Here's the original box from mine, in it's original condition when I bought it for $60

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after i lightly scrubbed the logo with 409

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I wouldn't be obsessed with finding a clean looking one. These keyboards clean up very well and easily. After wiping it down with 409 and cleaning the caps in warm water + dish soap:

Image

Just watch out for paint chips, because those are much harder to fix. this is what paint chips look like: (from my FedEx dropped F AT)

Image
Last edited by Tritian on 06 Jun 2021, 22:33, edited 1 time in total.

Tribal

06 Jun 2021, 21:08

$200 is way too much to pay for an XT - especially since you’ll need to have it shipped to UK. An AT isn’t that much more than that and is much, much better. If you can be patient, you could probably get an XT for more like $100 or an AT for about $250. Neither is very hard to restore if in less than perfect condition.

There are usually about 3-4 XTs newly listed each week on eBay and about 1 AT per week. Maybe one F122 per month.

The market is full of speculators and is really, truly insane right now. It’s possible to get a good deal, but you need to be patient. There are plenty of ATs out there and I promise that if you miss out on a good deal right now because you were getting prepared then another good deal will come around within a month.

Also, to me, the space bar looks backwards. Some people like it that way.

Mips

06 Jun 2021, 21:23

Brilliant thanks so much guys, you helped me dodge a bullet there.

Damn I keep hearing about boards damaged in the post, fedex seem pretty bad about handling parcels.

This forum has been amazingly helpful, everyone's very decent unlike a lot of forums out there. I’ll hold back & be patient then. Still undecided about AT/XT. The AT’s more practical but I also kind of like the XT’s more ‘esoteric’ vibe of being so non-standard.

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Tritian

06 Jun 2021, 21:33

The XT is built tougher. it's among the most well constructed keyboards out there.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

06 Jun 2021, 21:43

Tritian wrote:
06 Jun 2021, 21:33
The XT is built tougher. it's among the most well constructed keyboards out there.
Overall that is true, although the plastic used in Model F is brittle where the Model M plastic is tough. And also the F plastic has a "core" and an outer layer but the Model M is the same material all the way through.

Why the AT is the lone Model F without a metal back plate is mystifying, and I feel terror every time I crack one open because it feels and sounds like it will break, but so far I have never damaged one.

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Tritian

06 Jun 2021, 22:02

i agree, opening F AT cases is terrifying, and I too feel like i'm about to break it every single time.

Mips

06 Jun 2021, 22:51

It's odd thoough - the XTs I'm seeing on ebay all seem to be way more than $100. I've seen quite a few & I'm not seeing them go any where near as cheap as that yet. Perhaps I haven't been looking long enough - or could it be that the prices have taken a upward turn in recent times?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324417388957 ... Sw1OhgVjYE

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274824419473 ... SwFGpgvPpx

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274811113797

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an_achronism

06 Jun 2021, 23:59

Mips wrote:
06 Jun 2021, 22:51
It's odd thoough - the XTs I'm seeing on ebay all seem to be way more than $100. I've seen quite a few & I'm not seeing them go any where near as cheap as that yet. Perhaps I haven't been looking long enough - or could it be that the prices have taken a upward turn in recent times?
It's because we're in the UK and people seem to get a bit excitable about these here because they aren't quite so plentiful as in the US. One went for less than $100 yesterday, which I would've bought myself if I didn't already have an XT in similar condition (and if I could have afforded to pay for it, which I currently can't): https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254993852392

Mips

07 Jun 2021, 00:36

@an_achronism - Got it Cheers, I get the feeling you really need to approach things as a restorer with the F's, I think that's the key.

I got what looks like a brand new first generation silver badge M, virtually no plastic rivets missing. The underneath has a mark or two but from above I probably wouldn't be able to tell it wasn't BNIB. From what I'm learning, to end up with an F even near that good you'd usually be restoring a board somewhat even if it's in reasonably good condition. And then there's the spacebar mod which sounds like something I'd want to do.

These seem to be much more of a labour of love than the Ms - fitting I guess, since they're really treasured by the niche keyboard enthusiasts who love to tinker to get the absolute best of the best.

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hellothere

07 Jun 2021, 00:45

an_achronism wrote:
06 Jun 2021, 23:59
One went for less than $100 yesterday, which I would've bought myself if I didn't already have an XT in similar condition (and if I could have afforded to pay for it, which I currently can't): https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254993852392
It went for £84.26, which xe.com says is $118. Not to be too much of a pedant, but that is over $100 :P

While I agree that you can sometimes find a great deal, like a Model M 101 terminal I picked up for $20 a few weeks back, you have to be watching ebay almost constantly and you have to be extremely lucky.

Cheapest sold Model F on ebay US in the past couple months: $90.
Cheapest Model F currently for sale on ebay US: $165
If you're wondering, the most expensive completely overhauled 84 key Model F AT sold was $510.

I'd recommend checking sold ebay ads and take an average. That's the price you should be paying. Factor in damage and model.

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an_achronism

07 Jun 2021, 00:53

hellothere wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 00:45
It went for £84.26, which xe.com says is $118. Not to be too much of a pedant, but that is over $100 :P
Aye indeed, I used the wrong currency unit: I meant under £100, not under $100. But yes, under £100 is definitely less than what I paid.

Mips

07 Jun 2021, 01:03

hellothere wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 00:45
It went for £84.26, which xe.com says is $118. Not to be too much of a pedant, but that is over $100 :P
And that one had 'been left outside in the rain for some time' and would have been in need of a degree of restoring. I know nothing but I'm guessing rust and rotting foam would probably end up being an issue for that one.

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an_achronism

07 Jun 2021, 01:12

Mips wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 01:03
And that one had 'been left outside in the rain for some time' and would have been in need of a degree of restoring. I know nothing but I'm guessing rust and rotting foam would probably end up being an issue for that one.
It would have been ideal for me if the badge was less rubbed off: I have a NOS assembly (the guts) that needs a cable & case. But the badge was quite iffy, so the appeal diminished.

Mips

07 Jun 2021, 01:37

NOS would be a dream, where did you find that?

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Tritian

07 Jun 2021, 01:40

oh one other thing that comes up; people claim the UK model F's have shittier foam - something to think about... nomatter what you get, you *may* need to open it up to fix the foam issue.

i'm not in the UK so this is all second hand info to me.

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an_achronism

07 Jun 2021, 05:26

Tritian wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 01:40
oh one other thing that comes up; people claim the UK model F's have shittier foam - something to think about... nomatter what you get, you *may* need to open it up to fix the foam issue.

i'm not in the UK so this is all second hand info to me.
On my sample size of 1, the foam is indeed disintegrating. The bottom of the case was full of black "dust" and the pad is crumbling away around the edges; I accidentally got a tiny dribble of IPA on it while cleaning and it just totally melted away in that spot. It does still function but some barrels are a bit loose and it will presumably just keep getting worse. Already got replacement neoprene on the way once it arrives with darkcruix.
Mips wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 01:37
NOS would be a dream, where did you find that?
Not the UK, hahah. Really shouldn't have bought it but felt like those probably don't show up often so...

John Doe

07 Jun 2021, 07:26

Probably no need to continue to give a reply, but incase someone still wanna that xt and care the entire condition, better remind of this. Photo speaks, no idea how the cable will be like inside part of the shell, but little bit concerned. :)
Spoiler:
001.jpg
001.jpg (279.99 KiB) Viewed 3893 times

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an_achronism

07 Jun 2021, 08:07

John Doe wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 07:26
Probably no need to continue to give a reply, but incase someone still wanna that xt and care the entire condition, better remind of this. Photo speaks, no idea how the cable will be like inside part of the shell, but little bit concerned. :)
Spoiler:
001.jpg
Aye, I spotted that. It's a tad suspicious to me that they "have no way to test" but the cable appears not to be held in the retainer which suggests it has been disassembled then reassembled incorrectly.

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Tritian

07 Jun 2021, 08:24

Probably not the only thing assembled incorrectly. It seems obvious the wire hooks are not inserted into the stab posts on the spacebar.

My guess is this was a botched attempt to lighten the spacebar. There could be physical damage to the wire or stab posts on the spacebar which would be very difficult to repair.

Or maybe when the guy opened it he saw the foam was so far gone that he hastily re-assembled it and decided just to pass it on...

Avoid.

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an_achronism

07 Jun 2021, 08:48

Tritian wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 08:24
Probably not the only thing assembled incorrectly. It seems obvious the wire hooks are not inserted into the stab posts on the spacebar.

My guess is this was a botched attempt to lighten the spacebar. There could be physical damage to the wire or stab posts on the spacebar which would be very difficult to repair.

Or maybe when the guy opened it he saw the foam was so far gone that he hastily re-assembled it and decided just to pass it on...

Avoid.
Hahah I just came back to the thread to say precisely that, I had noticed the space bar sitting pushed up and forward so clearly not mounted right. Looks scratched as well.

Image

Image

I'd also guess that since these things have evidently been done wrong, the inside is almost certainly messed up as well. The assembly is probably forced shut such that the module is pressed up against the adjustable legs (in which case they won't be able to move and have an immense amount of pressure exerted on them). God knows what the hell they've done to the space bar wire, as you say.
Last edited by an_achronism on 07 Jun 2021, 09:26, edited 1 time in total.

JBert

07 Jun 2021, 09:25

Mips wrote:
06 Jun 2021, 22:51
It's odd thoough - the XTs I'm seeing on ebay all seem to be way more than $100. I've seen quite a few & I'm not seeing them go any where near as cheap as that yet. Perhaps I haven't been looking long enough - or could it be that the prices have taken a upward turn in recent times?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324417388957 ... Sw1OhgVjYE

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274824419473 ... SwFGpgvPpx

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274811113797
Those are all "Buy It Now" listings. The fact that they didn't sell yet means they're overpriced and waiting for a sucker to take the bait.

Here's Ken Rockwell's take on BIN listings: https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/ebay/buy-it-now.htm

I recommend reading the rest of his Ebay articles as well.

Mips

07 Jun 2021, 14:27

Thanks very much all, learning a lot here. I was missing this stuff but of course now you guys have pointed it out it seems obvious. I didn't notice that the cable stay's not in place & so as you guys say, it seems likely that someone who doesn't know what they're doing opened it up, tried and failed to repair it & put it back up as 'untested'. Dodged a bullet with that one!

I also hadn't twigged about the 'buy it now' issue. I feel a bit stupid, should have been obvious. I'll hold back and watch the market for a bit to get more of an idea & be patient. Very grateful to everyone on here in helping me not to make the disastrous decision to buy that keyboard!

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fohat
Elder Messenger

07 Jun 2021, 15:11

JBert wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 09:25

Those are all "Buy It Now" listings.
Only "Sold Items" results should be considered reliable as to current pricing.

The good news about ancient IBM iron is that almost anything is fixable, and even if one component is permanently wrecked all the rest of the parts are valuable backups.

Quite a long time ago I wrote this, but it is still valid:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51 ... msg1132476

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hellothere

07 Jun 2021, 19:11

fohat wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 15:11
JBert wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 09:25

Those are all "Buy It Now" listings.
Only "Sold Items" results should be considered reliable as to current pricing.

The good news about ancient IBM iron is that almost anything is fixable, and even if one component is permanently wrecked all the rest of the parts are valuable backups.

Quite a long time ago I wrote this, but it is still valid:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51 ... msg1132476
All the things above are definitely true and great to mention.

I've owned only two Model F XTs. I documented a little of that here, but not incredibly much. My profile pic I currently have is of the badly rusted barrel plate that it had. That one needed a full restore. Said restore had two things that made me nuts: the foam and hole punch were difficult to find and use. I also didn't use clamps to put everything back together. Using clamps and a rubber mallet made the process much, much easier.

The second Model F XT I restored was a NOS core (keys, barrel plate, etc.) I bought and put into a case I had lying about. I don't remember where I got the caps from, but I remember them being somewhat inexpensive. So, again, fohat is absolutely right regarding just having extra parts lying around.

It's pretty easy to make a Soarer's Converter for either the F XT or AT and it's pretty cheap if you already have a soldering gun, so even if you don't have a KB cable, you can get it up and running.

Mips

07 Jun 2021, 19:29

fohat wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 15:11
Only "Sold Items" results should be considered reliable as to current pricing.
Of course, I forgot about this, much more useful.
fohat wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 15:11
Quite a long time ago I wrote this, but it is still valid:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51 ... msg1132476
Great guide, thanks. Patience seems to be a key lesson all round. And asking sellers to use plenty of bubble wrap - in fact I offer extra money to wrap valuable items more completely.

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