Kinda curious: What makes Alps so sensitive to dust?

[Clickerclack]

I have been eying for a keyboard with ALPS switches, but everytime I look at such a keyboard (like a AT101W), I get pretty hesitant to buy it. I've read and heard a lot about the ALPS ''sensitivity'' to dust when compared to other switches. What causes ALPS to have a high sensitivity to dust?

[Muirium]

They’re just too damn open at the top:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14549

Cherry MX is definitely an improvement over Alps for durability, with less dirt ingress around the slider and also better designed contacts which aren’t as sensitive to dirty distortion. But MX never feels as good as top notch Alps, so I’m still not a fan.

People are experimenting with ways to fix badly dirtied Alps. Maybe read up on that, and restore your courage!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26656

[snacksthecat]

They’re just too damn open at the top:

(Chicago mechanic accent) See there's your problem. Gonna be about a week before me and the boys can open these puppies up and hit it with the ultrasonic. Last owner probably didn't keep up with regular maintenance. Lucky for you I don't see any sign of switch plate bending. Can I interest you in our winterizing special for half off?



Dusty slider rails:

[Polecat]

I have been eying for a keyboard with ALPS switches, but everytime I look at such a keyboard (like a AT101W), I get pretty hesitant to buy it. I've read and heard a lot about the ALPS ''sensitivity'' to dust when compared to other switches. What causes ALPS to have a high sensitivity to dust?

Climate change. Or is it climate anxiety?

I've been using Alps keyboards for thirty-odd years, and I've yet to have one that was affected by dust. I don't cover mine, and I don't live in a cleanroom, quite the opposite. I think people are dredging up keyboards that have been stored in sandblasting shops, cement quarries, or buried in landfills. Or just repeating what they've heard from other paranoiacs on social media. Or maybe I've just been lucky on every one of the last 60-odd keyboards?

[Muirium]

I’ve had good Alps (NOS) and bad, bad Alps, and I can vouch that Alps can get very very verrRrRRrry bad indeed. If it’s just a mass delusion then it’s convinced four of my own keyboards, some of them unconverted, so they couldn’t even have heard it over USB. Powerful mind control. Lizards in Space, right?

[zrrion]

I've personally never had alps boards that have had issues with dust where I felt that other switches would have been fine. That is to say if my alps are kinda dirty, then other switches that are just as dirty are about the same in terms of key feel vs how they are stock. MX and SKCC seem to fare better than most other switch types in my experience, but beyond those (and possibly IBM switches, but I've never tried dirty beamspring or overly dirty buckling spring so idk) I think many switches are in about the same ballpark as far as dust sensitivity goes. If any switch deserves a reputation for being dust sensitive it's space invaders. No top housing at all, dust just gets in there and the slider mashes it into the bottom where it sticks around.

[Muirium]

Well, let me borrow the conspiracy theorist's baton from you, this is where I get to extrapolate from my own limited experience!

I've got two black space invader keyboards. Both of them are awesome. The one I got from Cindy* was much dirtier than the other, which came in great condition from Facetsesame. Besides their build—the clean one is a higher end model, weightier case and fancier legends on the caps—the switches all feel just as good. Cindy's one was as you'd expect: grimy from long term storage after many years' Texan government use. Cleaned up just the treat, though!

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." I don't doubt you, in the general case, because I just haven't had the keyboards to know the statistical truth. But my two data points do tell their own biased little story. If only my Alps boards were as consistent as my space invaders…

*Looking up the Cindy keyboard pic, I remember I proxied one for someone else back here. (Thanks internet memory!) As I recall, there was no difference in key feel between the two. And no, I never chopped it. Quite a project with a steel plate! The sticker came off nicely in the end.

[Polecat]

I’ve had good Alps (NOS) and bad, bad Alps, and I can vouch that Alps can get very very verrRrRRrry bad indeed. If it’s just a mass delusion then it’s convinced four of my own keyboards, some of them unconverted, so they couldn’t even have heard it over USB. Powerful mind control. Lizards in Space, right?

I've had a few bad Alps keyboards, but the problems were not dust related. I bought a white Alps Costar from Egypt, which looks brand new, inside and out, but the switches bind and feel awful. Heat and/or humidity perhaps? And it seems like every black Alps keyboard I've come across has had squeaky switches. NeXT, Dell, and Micro Connectors come immediately to mind, none of them dirty or dusty. The Flying Spaghetti Monster *does* exist, but listen carefully--its message has nothing to do with Faerie Dust.

[snacksthecat]

Two things that are worse than nails on a chalkboard to me:
1) Trying to rip off a piece of scotch tape and it instead scraping against the little plastic teeth
2) Sticky alps

I get the horrible anticipation of that scotch tape feeling whenever I'm about to type on an alps board (dirty or clean); gun shy that they're going to feel unpleasant.

I guess 2022 is the year where I finally admit to myself that I prefer the feeling of most other switches above alps. They sound awesome, and I love the history and lore surrounding the switches, but they just ain't for me in practice.

Edit: SKCL brown switches being the exception. But those are so light I feel like I'm slipping around it a pool of jell-o.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Two things that are worse than nails on a chalkboard to me:
1) Trying to rip off a piece of scotch tape and it instead scraping against the little plastic teeth
2) Sticky alps

Well said.
binding alps are rather crap. This chicony with theese very early unbrand top pine white alps were so crap, even after ultra sonicing them that after using them for less than 10 minutes made me want to yeet it through my drywall begind my monitor. Keys feelt like they were sticking too much to the top housing. It was not scratchy. The best description that would have fit it was slowness. It felt heavy and slow especially on corner presses. Now after me wax modding the switches, I struggle to go and use any other kind of switch, other than alps. It's just pure perfection. Buckling springs over membrane are especially big disappointment to me after lubed up white alps. And now that we have Wax mod unlike NeK's stuff, that to me is like fusion energy, never seem to happen, but if it is supposedly gonna happen with continuous research going on, hopefully we gonna be getting it soon enough. But boilwax mod has given us the possibility to restore even the wors keyboards that we can find, without the need for the original lubricant for pocket money. It seems alps are here to stay, and regardless of their condition.Here I am typing on my AEK II now and it also feels just pure sex. Slight tactiltiy with damped switches and it just makes you relax and forget about everything else, that's how perfect they are. To be honest, I never expected Alps to be my all time favorite switches when I got into the hobby. I was deeply in love with my Model M, and I will never forget the good times I had with that board.


Well, that's what you call a rambling post. Sorry about that. But you know, it just had to come out

[hellothere]

I've had lots of Alps keyboards. I've no had problems with binding or sticking. Upstroke click, yes. Scratchy, yes. I've seen other people demonstrate binding. I just can't replicate it.

I can say that the older Alps switches don't feel that consistent to me. I've had some blue/green/orange Alps boards that are pretty good and some that were just average, even if I used the same method for cleaning and lubing. However, if I move on to early whites, they're much more consistent and they're on the good side of consistent.

BTW, I've been very happy with cream damped Alps switches and I've got a couple AEK IIs in line to be restored.

[Muirium]

Here I am typing on my AEK II now and it also feels just pure sex. Slight tactiltiy with damped switches and it just makes you relax and forget about everything else, that's how perfect they are. To be honest, I never expected Alps to be my all time favorite switches when I got into the hobby.

Yep. That's Alps doing what they do best. They're really satisfying in this way your fingers understand much more than words do. It's that "mmm-hmm!" you get when you taste something truly umami. Tactile Alps are the umami of keyboards.

I get a comparable but different trance-state of flow from Topre, and they're so much more consistent. But Alps has definitely got the "it" factor. (When it's in the mood.)

[Lynx_Carpathica]

I get a comparable but different trance-state of flow from Topre, and they're so much more consistent. But Alps has definitely got the "it" factor. (When it's in the mood.)

I wish I could daily drive a topre to be able to judge them. But here I am, wanting a blue alps board and a Model F. Both of them seem to be out of my reach right now. Not to mention topre is kinda unreachable in the EU. But nevermind.

This is what alps really does to you:

[hellothere]

One of my favorite bits from R+M.

[NeK]

Well, according to my tests, dust is not a big factor in the deterioration of ALPS. The most important one is the oxidation of the plastics (and the metal leafs too, but in a lesser degree), in plain words, the plastics age and get corroded and their surfaces turn from smooth to harsher and harsher. That makes them loose all of their smoothness and start to feel bad and start to bind, until they eventually become terrible and feel like bricks.

However, all is not lost, they can be restored, but it is not easy and I still haven't figured out all the details. And there is a big difference in the 1st gen SKCM than the later ones, and especially the SKBM.

If you want to listen to me, do not fall for the "wax mod" which in reality does nothing and understand that the restoration is a complicated process, there are many, many parts in the switch that may break and need restoration. It's not just a simple "take them out and clean them".

Most importantly though, it is not the dust that makes them go bad. It's many factors and the switches, despite being the best, are truly complicated and extremely delicate.

I have a dedicated thread for the restoration, which is not finished, but I still work on it and I'm very close to actually find all the issues and how to fix all of them one by one. Maybe if there was more participation on that approach, we would have already found an easy way to properly restore them to proper good condition. Here is the thread fo anyone interested: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24987

[zrrion]

Waxboil is a fantastic restoration method lol, nek is chasing a restoration method to return it to a mythical "stock" condition that he has never experienced and can't ever experience since the OG alps lube has been expired for quite some time.

It's far more important and certainly more practical to look for low effort-high result restoration methods like waxboiling that can easily restore switches from 4/10 to 7-8/10. from there any Tom Dick or Larry can wet lube them to get them even nicer.
Is it in line with your over-glorified concept of "OG ALPS lube NOS feel" ? No. Does it make the switches good? Yes. Will anyone but Nek ever invest the time to hand polish all the sliders when you can spend like an hour waxboiling a fullsize worth of switches at once to get results just as good? Of course not.

I'm not saying the things you're doing to your switches in your thread about alps restoration aren't effective, I'm saying the reason there isn't any participation on the approach you're taking is because the priorities of your approach are out of wack.
And on a final note, plastic condition is not an independent variable to dust ingress and switch smoothness is related to both the condition of the plastic as well as the amount of dust present. Saying that dust isn't the issue is just plain wrong.

[NeK]

That would be nice and would have made total sense, if waxboiling worked. But, it just doesn't.
If, after this whole charade of constant retracting of the waxboiling effects and its results, by the "wax man" himself (jezuuz) and especially after the comprehensive test done by Chyrosran22, which completely disproves it, you still think it works, then I simply cannot continue to argue with you.
We disagree on this fundamental premise, therefore there is no point in arguing or making claims for any subsequent detail and drawing conclusions that depend on that.

You believe it works, so it makes the switches good enough, therefore it doesn't make sense to spent more time and effort for an extra "small" improvement.
I, on the contrary, believe that it doesnt work, so the switches remain in a bad condition, which is not nearly good enough to make them usable. Therefore, I continue my research to find a method that actually does improve their condition and makes them acceptable for use. Do you see the reason why we don't agree now?

Now, about the dust, yes it is technically a factor, when it is combined with moisture, ageing, heat and usage. However, in my experience it is the least contributing one.

I admit that my approach is "out of whack", compared to a simple quick ultrasonic clean, but that's because simple cleaning does not restore them to an acceptable degree. And I am after to really making them feel good. I also enjoy doing this, as a hobby. My goal is to find all the issues that ALPS develop, the exact cause of each and find a restoration twchnique for each one of them.
I bet when I am done, the whole process will be much simpler and I will have solutions for most of them.

[zrrion]

especially after the comprehensive test done by Chyrosran22, which completely disproves it, you still think it works, then I simply cannot continue to argue with you.

>comprehensive
For a test that only tries one kind of wax (and not even the recommend kind) I don't know who would consider that comprehensive. It was useful for demonstrating that 1 kind of candle wouldn't work. maybe you could call it comprehensive if he had tried a variety of waxes instead of just the 1. I wouldn't hold my breath for a wax mod update video though as chyros seems just as willing to rethink his position as you.

We disagree on this fundamental premise, therefore there is no point in arguing or making claims for any subsequent detail and drawing conclusions that depend on that.

This is a super weak stance to take honestly. If you had a leg to stand on you would be standing on it right now instead of just deciding you aren't going to discuss this. Discussion would lead to you having to admit you're wrong so just pretend like you've got some sort of objection to discussion rooted in my thought process. Then the lack of critical analysis of your methods is my fault for being so contrary instead of yours for being afraid of possibly being wrong.

Just for fun though I just waxboiled some SI switches (I know it's not alps, but I don't really have any SKCM/SKCL that needs restoration just sitting around so this'll have to do) and it's really satisfying taking switches that used to look like this and making them look like this with only 45 minutes of work for an entire board. My previous post in this thread happened while I was boiling the sliders and since then I've cleaned the bottom housings, waxed the sliders, and have started reassembling them. They could use some additional wet lube after the boil (and I probably could have used some more wax honestly) but for where they started and where I'm at after so little work I don't think you can beat that.

The process works. IDK what exact issues you are having with the process but I would be more than happy to walk you through the process and see where your methods can be adjusted for better results. If you don't want that then I would be fine if you send me any alps board you have that's in bad shape and I'll waxboil it and send it back to you free of charge. You pay shipping and I'll do the rest.

[NeK]

It's not a matter of weak stance.

May I remind you that I have tried the wax boiling, many times with more than 5 different wax candles. I have also documented on video the process. They all were a failure.

My conclusions do not stem from anything other than actual tests and the stubbornness of the results being bad.

Also it happens that I was the one that actually started off this wax craze, by being the first to actually apply a wax candle in a switch and get a positive result. I know that you or jezzuuz will claim otherwise, but I have undeniable proof of that, so please refrain from arguing on this fact. Therefore I have every reason and motive to want plain wax to work. But it sadly doesn't. It's effects do not last, the wax will come off and the switches will deteriorate after a few keypresses. It is simply how wax works, it doesn't stick strongly enough to overcome the sliding forces of the parts that push it and it slowly gets pushed off with each keypress.

The wax itself actually is a type of lubricant that is proper for this case. Paraffin wax is made up of high atomic number chained hydrocarbons. That's true and that's similar to what works best for ALPS. But those hydrocarbons *must be* mixed with a good thickener, that will stick on the plastics and not get scrapped off.

All of this are plain basic facts about tribology. This is the reason why greases were invented in the first place. Because waxes and oils, are good for lubrications but sadly do not stay in place for long. But don't believe me, just ask what is the difference between an oil and a grease, and what is the reason greases exist at all. Yhen you will understand, hopefully, why this is futile.

[zrrion]

You keep saying that it doesn't work but I have several boards that would disagree with you . Again, not sure what you're doing wrong but I would be more than happy to help since I've personally been able to get this process to work on several switch types at this point. If there's something that should be avoided in the process it is pretty important we figure it out so that others don't make the same mistake. As far as this goes though I'm not being especially careful with wax amount and the candle I'm using I only bought because it was shaped like a skull so it would seem to me the required skill to get good results is pretty low so I can't think of any advice to offer without better feedback from you. My offer to just do it for you is still on the table but I didn't realize that you were in Greece when I made it so it's completely understandable that it wouldn't really be economical anyway.

[Clickerclack]

Damn, ALPS switches are much more complicated than I've originally thought. It looks like there are so many factors to account for when buying and choosing ALPS boards...

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Not only you, I have several boards now that have at least a few swithces, or in case of my chicony, are fully waxmodded. The wax mod works wonderfully.

NeK, I'd ask you to show us how you did the wax mod so we can help you with it.

Damn, ALPS switches are much more complicated than I've originally thought. It looks like there are so many factors to account for when buying and choosing ALPS boards...

I'd say not anymore. It's just a matter of cleaning them out Thoroughly, and then restorng them. If you are willing to put in the elbow grease, you can pick up any old alps boards regardless of condition, and make them at least 7/10.

[Polecat]

...Also it happens that I was the one that actually started off this wax craze...

Well I was the one who half-jokingly suggested the original lube might be some generic variation of Johnson's Paste Wax, long before anyone had actually waxed their switches. Not that any of my original Alps keyboards need that, or any other snake oil treatment, thank you.

[hellothere]

I think I'm going to have to stop using "FWIW," because all of this is "FWIW" .

I was skeptical of the paper mod for tactile Alps switches, until I tried it and found that it immediately does make a significant difference. I also think it's a difference in the positive direction.

While I don't use "waxboil," pouring very hot water into my ultrasonic cleaner, tossing in top housings or sliders and a couple denture cleaner tablets, then ultrasonicing for 30 min seems to work extremely well for me. It's even better after I use ceramic wax lube in the top housing and on the switch plate side of the slider.

Other than knowing that plastics do eventually decompose, I don't have an opinion on plastic decomposition. However, I have used a product called "Rubber Renue" to temporarily fix rubber rollers in my printer. I see that there are plastic "renue" products out there for plastic trim on your car. It might be interesting to test one of those on switches.

If you have tiny scratches in your sliders or top housings because of dirt, I'd theorize that cleaning out the switch then filling those scratches in would make the switch perform better. That's the reason I'm using the ceramic wax lube. It fills in a lot, so it's a bit like spackle or Bondo.

IIRC, someone mentioned taking a Dremel and polishing either or both top housings and sliders, which means that you're taking a bit of the plastic away to create a smooth surface. I wouldn't necessarily want to do that, because I'd probably end up with some damaged switches, but that also sounds kinda interesting.

[Muirium]

FWIW is BS, IMHO.

All you wax modders keep us appraised on how well it stands up to use and time. Its simplicity and effectiveness is very appealing. But so was Retrobright… (Let’s not get started on boomeranging yellowing, just for the sake of an analogy. But I for one will never do it only for the staining to return.)

[Lynx_Carpathica]

FWIW is BS, IMHO.

All you wax modders keep us appraised on how well it stands up to use and time. Its simplicity and effectiveness is very appealing. But so was Retrobright… (Let’s not get started on boomeranging yellowing, just for the sake of an analogy. But I for one will never do it only for the staining to return.)

Continuing the boomerang analogy, it will eventually get worse, due to usage, and dust. But the wax reduces friction, thus wear and stress on the parts.

But untill then I hope Nek will find out what the real og lube was/is, so we can finally have the best solution possible for maximum enjoyment.

[Bjerrk]

The paraffin method also has the advantage over "wet" lube that it isn't sticky and thus doesn't hold on to dust/dirt.

[Polecat]

Some of the theories here remind me of the one where the guy claimed that if you jumped out of an airplane from higher and higher, with a smaller and smaller parachute, you'd eventually not need one at all. It actually turned out to be true, but not for the reason he thought.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Some of the theories here remind me of the one where the guy claimed that if you jumped out of an airplane from higher and higher, with a smaller and smaller parachute, you'd eventually not need one at all. It actually turned out to be true, but not for the reason he thought.

Most (but let's say, some) of them are not theories, but plain facts, if you ask me.

[Bjerrk]

Some of the theories here remind me of the one where the guy claimed that if you jumped out of an airplane from higher and higher, with a smaller and smaller parachute, you'd eventually not need one at all. It actually turned out to be true, but not for the reason he thought.

I assume you are aware of how natural science works?

As long as these hypotheses are tested and subsequently modified, I view it as progress. And I appreciate that people are doing the work - whether it's on wet lubes or hardening wax or something else.