are vintage membrane keyboards worth it?

to01

21 May 2022, 22:19

Hi guys, I've recently been looking into vintage keyboards in my area but it seems all of them are membrane, is it still worth it to buy one / should they be worth less then alps/mech keyboards?

xxhellfirexx

21 May 2022, 23:51

Not all membrane keyboards are bad. The Model M is a membrane keyboard after all.

Here are some great switch options. Most of these comes in standard layouts with no weird protocols.
wiki/Mitsumi_KPQ_Type
wiki/BTC_dome_with_slider
wiki/Acer_switch

If you are looking for one, don't pay more than $30 USD for one, before shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284823827595

ntv242ver2

22 May 2022, 00:20

to01 wrote:
21 May 2022, 22:19
Hi guys, I've recently been looking into vintage keyboards in my area but it seems all of them are membrane, is it still worth it to buy one / should they be worth less then alps/mech keyboards?
if you are talking those rubber dome keyboards from the late 90s early 2000s then dont waste your time and money

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Muirium
µ

22 May 2022, 10:21

^Correct. These mid 90s-2000s keyboards were so bad they finally got me to notice key feel in the first place. Wretched, awful, disgraceful things! Good riddance!

I’d be wary of Acer switch keyboards. The one I had was terrible for rollover. Membranes are always 2KRO but there’s a world of difference between a well designed membrane (regular consumer Model M) and a poorly designed one (Acer, terminal Model M). All membranes can chord a little but not a lot. It’s all about where they put the collisions.

Also: you better not be into gaming. The WASD keys were just regular non-chording letters for all these manufacturers knew!

to01

22 May 2022, 10:31

xxhellfirexx wrote:
21 May 2022, 23:51
Not all membrane keyboards are bad. The Model M is a membrane keyboard after all.

Here are some great switch options. Most of these comes in standard layouts with no weird protocols.
wiki/Mitsumi_KPQ_Type
wiki/BTC_dome_with_slider
wiki/Acer_switch

If you are looking for one, don't pay more than $30 USD for one, before shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284823827595
I bought one for 2 bucks at a garage sale yesterday, it looks to have normal rubber domes, would that still be worth it? (ps. It looks like this)
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to01

22 May 2022, 10:35

ntv242ver2 wrote:
22 May 2022, 00:20
to01 wrote:
21 May 2022, 22:19
Hi guys, I've recently been looking into vintage keyboards in my area but it seems all of them are membrane, is it still worth it to buy one / should they be worth less then alps/mech keyboards?
if you are talking those rubber dome keyboards from the late 90s early 2000s then dont waste your time and money
Any way I can figure out whether a keyboard is 90s-2000s?

xxhellfirexx

22 May 2022, 10:59

to01 wrote:
22 May 2022, 10:35
Any way I can figure out whether a keyboard is 90s-2000s?
Keyboards introduced after 1995 has Windows keys.

NathanA

22 May 2022, 11:44

to01 wrote:
22 May 2022, 10:31
I bought one for 2 bucks at a garage sale yesterday, it looks to have normal rubber domes, would that still be worth it? (ps. It looks like this)
It was 2 bucks.

The question is, "worth it" according to what metric? Worth what? Worth buying and using? Well, that all depends: do you like using it? If you said "yes", then you have answered your own question. And even if the answer is "no", are you regretting spending the $2 just to find out whether it's good or crap? $2 is a pretty low gamble...

If, however, you're just looking to buy-and-flip, the only way to answer your question is to look at what the going rate is for similar models. But hopefully you are getting into this hobby because you actually enjoy keyboards qua keyboards, and not just because you are hoping to make a quick buck.
xxhellfirexx wrote:
21 May 2022, 23:51
The Model M is a membrane keyboard after all.
I wish people would stop conflating "rubber dome" and "membrane".

(Not you, just to be clear! Yours was just a convenient post to serve as a jumping off point for this mini-rant. ;) )

There are also of course keyboards that employ rubber domes that are relatively good. Chyros himself has a "megareview" video of various rubber dome 'boards, some of which he actually likes! (Some people even [claim to] like the rubber dome variant of the Model M...yes, there is one, and as far as dome + membrane boards go, it's probably up there in terms of quality & key feel.)

It is interesting to note that the (arguably) best keyswitch that employs a rubber dome in some capacity -- Topre -- doesn't use a membrane-based matrix but rather a capacitive-sensing PCB. While the (buckling spring variant of) Model M has a membrane matrix but uses the hammers-attached-to-buckling-springs mechanism for feedback + return force instead of domes. So when domes and membranes are used separately, they can both make for some pretty good keyswitches. It's almost like the combination of those two things in particular is what somehow manages to unleash uniquely unholy abominations...

to01

22 May 2022, 12:27

NathanA wrote:
22 May 2022, 11:44
The question is, "worth it" according to what metric? Worth what? Worth buying and using? Well, that all depends: do you like using it? If you said "yes", then you have answered your own question. And even if the answer is "no", are you regretting spending the $2 just to find out whether it's good or crap? $2 is a pretty low gamble...
I am quite happy with the keyboard, even though half the keys dont register -_-
I guess buying keyboards just to have them isn't that bad.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

22 May 2022, 12:37

to01 wrote:
22 May 2022, 12:27
I guess buying keyboards just to have them isn't that bad.
Well, you've come to a judgement-free place, let's put it that way. Can anyone on DT truthfully say they don't have unusable keyboards in their collections? ;)

To address Nathan's (courteously mini) rant about the popular confusion between membrane and domes: I'm on my SSK right now so I feel safe to criticise membranes, even from a "good" one. If Topre was a membrane keyboard, I wouldn't like them. Membranes have three pitfalls:
  • Keys only register when the membrane is pressed on directly: they demand bottoming out
  • 2KRO: you'll find a lot of blocking when chording keys
  • Liquid spills can and often wreck the entire keyboard
The top one really kills rubber dome + membrane keyboards for me. Bottoming out is the gooey, flummery, mucky bit of the keystroke on most all rubber domes. And that's exactly where you have to push them to type on them at all. Gross! Non-contact sensing like capsense (Topre, Model F) or Hall effect is definitely the way to go; especially with domes. I also prefer it on Model F vs. membranes under these here flippers on my Model M. Why? Mainly the other two reasons, especially NKRO. But IBM changed a lot when they went Model M, so it's also all of that stuff thrown into the mix. Model F is sooooo much nicer!

NathanA

22 May 2022, 13:40

Oh, yes, for sure membranes are not above criticism. The only thing I'm objecting to is the conflation of membranes and domes, specifically because when people who don't understand the distinction hear "membrane" they think "mushy", when really it's crap-quality domes that are to blame for that feel (which of course is further underlined when those crap domes are paired with membranes due to your point #1!).
Muirium wrote:
22 May 2022, 12:37
  • Keys only register when the membrane is pressed on directly: they demand bottoming out
I think it does bear pointing out that, though strictly true, there are ways around this. IBM found one of them: the buckling spring engages the hammer well before your finger physically bottoms the key out.
Muirium wrote:
22 May 2022, 12:37
  • 2KRO: you'll find a lot of blocking when chording keys
This is its biggest weakness, really. Though, if a manufacturer were inclined to do so, is there anything stopping them from littering their membranes with diodes? It'd probably ratchet up the manufacturing cost so quickly that they might as well put in a PCB instead, plus the diodes would add additional thickness to the paper-thin membrane layer that would have to be taken into account...

Many have argued that for the average user, even 2KRO is sufficient. Most matrices take chording of multiple modifiers into account, so it's usually only the actual character-generating keys that block with each other...even fast typists are likely to not run into many issues & it's games where this becomes more of a problem. I myself have used a Gen 4 Model M as a daily driver for nearly 20 years at the office, and it is extremely rare that I run into a rollover issue. Still, I also prefer NKRO when possible.

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Muirium
µ

22 May 2022, 15:12

Agreed on all counts. A well laid out membrane may be just as 2KRO as a badly designed one, yet in practical use you'll seldom ever notice it. And yes, Model M actuates a good bit before bottoming out, as its flippers snap the membrane for you when the spring buckles. So this regular SSK here has both of those advantages, making it one of the better membrane boards and truly nothing much to moan about.

Most vintage looking membrane keyboards, sadly, are also rubber dome, so by and large membranes remain bad news.

"Modern" low profile laptop-style keyboards are almost always membranes, too. They're scissor-switch, though, which mitigates things a bit. Obviously, their low travel chiclet keys are a whole different thing to the keyboards we like, but I dare say the chiclets (or as Chyros puts it: Rennies) that I've used are less objectionable than the old membrane + domes. A good part of it is expectation: you can't expect Topre feel on a MacBook Air that's thinner than the key throw!

davkol

22 May 2022, 16:43

Muirium wrote:
22 May 2022, 15:12
Most vintage looking membrane keyboards, sadly, are also rubber dome, so by and large membranes remain bad news.
A rubber dome is often much better news than Tai-Hao APC semi-mechanical, Amstrad prong over membrane, Smith Corona or arguably Cherry MY.
NathanA wrote:
22 May 2022, 13:40
Muirium wrote:
22 May 2022, 12:37
  • 2KRO: you'll find a lot of blocking when chording keys
This is its biggest weakness, really. Though, if a manufacturer were inclined to do so, is there anything stopping them from littering their membranes with diodes? It'd probably ratchet up the manufacturing cost so quickly that they might as well put in a PCB instead, plus the diodes would add additional thickness to the paper-thin membrane layer that would have to be taken into account...
Reminder that there are other ways of achieving [almost] NKRO besides diodes, for example Microsoft's Resistive switch matrix (used in SideWinder X4; IIRC Cherry MX Board 6.0 had something similar, was it "RealKey"?).

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Muirium
µ

22 May 2022, 17:02

Some of my favourite caps came on Cherry MY, though. It’s a nightmare to type on but perfectly serviceable as a long term keycap storage system. :D

Tribal

22 May 2022, 19:15

Muirium wrote:
22 May 2022, 10:21

I’d be wary of Acer switch keyboards.
My parents gave me our old Acer Advantage from 1996 and the keyboard (SK-1100, GYUR10SK) is much better than I expected. It feels shockingly similar to Cherry Ergo Clears. Much better than the rubber dome Model M or modern flat (non-scissor) rubber domes.

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clickandthock

21 Jun 2022, 17:03

Some are great! I have a Olivetti ANK 25 and I love it. The keys are stiff and snappy, really fun to use!

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Go-Kart

21 Jun 2022, 17:19

I rate MaxiSwitch dome w/ sliders, like that found in a Gateway AnyKey. It is all down to taste afteall.

inozenz

21 Jun 2022, 17:24

Yes

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Bjerrk

21 Jun 2022, 18:57

If we're talking membrane rubber dome boards, I'd call it a decisive maybe.

The biggest problem, I find, is that rubber domes often do not age well. Very often they become stiff and unpleasant over time.

Of course, this hardening of the rubber can sometimes increase tactility, which may be a good thing, but more often than not I find that it leads to a terrible keyfeel.

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robo

21 Jun 2022, 19:53

Like anything, rubber dome + membrane keyboards can be designed and manufactured better or worse. IMO they're partly maligned just because they are/were cheap and ubiquitous, so get zero respect, but there's a reason everyone switched to them in the 90's - they're simple, cheap, and work well enough that basically nobody complained about them when they were introduced.

I'd actually argue that it wasn't until they started cutting more and more corners with them that they became truly awful.

For example, Mac users rarely complained about the AppleDesign Alps rubber dome + membrane keyboards introduced in the mid 90's, although some definitely noticed that the older mechanical Alps Apple keyboards were nicer. However, when Apple released the iMac USB keyboard in 1998, people DID notice how bad and mushy that one was, and complained loudly... to the point that Apple had to make a point of releasing a better keyboard a couple years later, the Apple Pro Keyboard (still kinda mushy, but back to more average rubber dome + membrane territory).

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Bjerrk

21 Jun 2022, 20:33

Quite right.

I quite like my old IBM rubber dome SpaceSaver II.
IBMSpaceSaverII.png
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Maledicted

22 Jun 2022, 18:29

Go-Kart wrote:
21 Jun 2022, 17:19
I rate MaxiSwitch dome w/ sliders, like that found in a Gateway AnyKey. It is all down to taste afteall.
I'm surprised it took that long for somebody to mention Maxi Switch dome with sliders. They're fantastic. Give Topre and Niz a run for their money. I think Fujitsu Peerless and Focus dome with slider are great too (don't remember if these use a PCB or not offhand), but to each their own.

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Go-Kart

23 Jun 2022, 23:22

You've lost me with the Peerless, but yeh MaxiSwitch D/S are similar enough to Topre. I found MaxiSwitch first and liked 'em straight away.

SK-8K

24 Jun 2022, 02:25

There's lots of untapped mod potential with 90s-early 00s membrane keyboards. A lot of the cases are deep enough to hold a PCB and full height switches, the tricky part is designing the PCB and devising a mounting method that isn't too janky or wastes too much time.

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