Is there something about Cherry MX switches that make them more "clonable" than other designs?

apastuszak

31 Oct 2022, 17:50

I understand that with the current ecosystem of Cherry MX keycaps and hot swap PBCs, trying to make anything other than a Cherry MX clone switch will not go over well with the current keyboard enthusiast community.

But what made the Cherry MX clone community get here? Why aren't there dozens of different ALPS clones with tons of different ALPS keycaps out there? Is there something about Cherry MX style switches that make them a better design to clone vs. other mechanical switch types?

I keep trying to find a nice Cherry MX style switch I like. The best I have used so far is the lubed version of the Glorious Panda switches. But as much as I enjoy typing on those switches, I would still rather type on my AEK II or Model M.

Also, is there anything preventing someone from making an ALPS clone switch with a Cherry MX style keycap mount on it?

Findecanor

31 Oct 2022, 21:27

I think that when the mech-keyboard revival happened in around 2010, Cherry was the only switch brand that continuously manufactured mechanical switches in large numbers.
There was Forward/Fuhua/Fukka who made simplified Alps clones, but those had a reputation of being worse than Alps, and they stopped their production, which prompted Matias to develop their clone together with Kailh.

In 2013-2014, demand for the Cherry MX switches became higher than what Cherry could deliver, which prompted the MX-clones to happen (... or rather resurge) — as drop-in replacements for the Cherry MX to some of Cherry's former customers.
apastuszak wrote:
31 Oct 2022, 17:50
Also, is there anything preventing someone from making an ALPS clone switch with a Cherry MX style keycap mount on it?
There exist a few. But they have a wider top housing (for different reasons), so they are not compatible with all keycaps.

Alps-like housing. The MX-slider being larger in one direction makes the housing larger.
* I-Rocks switch

With Cherry MX-like housing and MX-style contact mechanism + separate click leaf. Having a click-leaf in the LED position makes the housing larger.
* Proworld MX clone
* Taiwan Jet Axis
* Zeal Clickiez
Last edited by Findecanor on 31 Oct 2022, 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Muirium
µ

31 Oct 2022, 22:28

MX *is* mech keyboards. The rest of us are stupid weenies.

apastuszak

01 Nov 2022, 02:12

Muirium wrote:
31 Oct 2022, 22:28
MX *is* mech keyboards. The rest of us are stupid weenies.
I think it's "meh keyboards." I prefer Model Ms and ALPS switches to MX style switches.

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Polecat

01 Nov 2022, 03:16

apastuszak wrote:
01 Nov 2022, 02:12
Muirium wrote:
31 Oct 2022, 22:28
MX *is* mech keyboards. The rest of us are stupid weenies.
I think it's "meh keyboards." I prefer Model Ms and ALPS switches to MX style switches.
MEHchanical. You're both right.

del20nd

05 Nov 2022, 20:51

apastuszak wrote:
31 Oct 2022, 17:50
I understand that with the current ecosystem of Cherry MX keycaps and hot swap PBCs, trying to make anything other than a Cherry MX clone switch will not go over well with the current keyboard enthusiast community.

But what made the Cherry MX clone community get here? Why aren't there dozens of different ALPS clones with tons of different ALPS keycaps out there? Is there something about Cherry MX style switches that make them a better design to clone vs. other mechanical switch types?

I keep trying to find a nice Cherry MX style switch I like. The best I have used so far is the lubed version of the Glorious Panda switches. But as much as I enjoy typing on those switches, I would still rather type on my AEK II or Model M.

Also, is there anything preventing someone from making an ALPS clone switch with a Cherry MX style keycap mount on it?
I think it's a combination of:

1) (As previously mentioned) Cherry was by far the biggest mechanical switch manufacturer when nice keyboards were enjoying a resurgence in popularity around 2010 or so. They never really stopped making them, and were still quite popular in point of sale terminals.

Your options in 2010 were, more or less, Cherry, Unicomp, and old boards from the late 80s and early 90s that might not still work. Of those 80/90s boards, only those that were directly compatible with PS2 plugs or could use a passive adapter were viable options, since there weren't really any active converters yet (except for the Model M.)

So yeah. Cherry was option #1 by default.

2) The patent on the Cherry MX switch design expired in 2014. This opened the door for the clones who could just copy what was already popular. It took awhile for them to catch up, but eventually they did. The MX keycap design would've already been fairly popular by this point so became the de facto "standard".

3) Inertia.

As far as why there aren't any clones for other boards out there:

- Model M's don't need a clone. They're still being made by Unicomp. There's no way to beat them on price, because they have all the original tooling. You can get a brand new model M for a little over $100.

- Model F's have, in fact, been cloned on the small scale production level that people would be willing to buy them at.

- Beam springs are hideously complicated to clone, but attempts are being made.

- ALPS switches are a little trickier to answer for, but I'll try. For all of their merits, they have some inherent design flaws. Their main weakness is dirt; if the switches are overused or get introduced to any dust, they're more or less ruined. Cherry switches don't have this design flaw. Even if kept perfectly clean, they're rated for 20 million key presses. Not awful, but far lower than Cherry MX switches and even lower than the Model M. That, combined with the very small percentage of the market that has any interest in them and the fact that there are still some out in the wild means that there's not a rush to clone them. Maybe someday when there's almost none left. Not yet.

- Some hall effect switches have been made. AFAIK they've been mostly designed to fit in the Cherry profile becasue it's the de facto standard profile.

- Anything else is so niche that there would be no way to recoup the tooling investment.

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Muirium
µ

05 Nov 2022, 20:56

An honest strength of MX has long been the fairly ruthless and consistent colour = key feel definition of the lineup. I know there’s some odd balls out there but 99 times out of 100 blue equals clicky, black equals linear et cetera. Getting your head around the Alps lineup is a significantly more nuanced, exception rich matter than picking up a square little MX tester and knowing instantly which one has your feel. (So long as you like scuffy, scuffy with a scratch, or scuffy with a chintzy click: the MX world’s your oyster.)

But yeah, being alive is basically the entire story. I’d argue that “stickers”, artisanally wound Korean springs and the fanboy ooze of lube also helped at the time. When the only MX was Cherry MX, Geekhack etc. really needed the creative outlet to amuse themselves. :lol:

del20nd

05 Nov 2022, 22:46

Muirium wrote:
05 Nov 2022, 20:56
An honest strength of MX has long been the fairly ruthless and consistent colour = key feel definition of the lineup. I know there’s some odd balls out there but 99 times out of 100 blue equals clicky, black equals linear et cetera. Getting your head around the Alps lineup is a significantly more nuanced, exception rich matter than picking up a square little MX tester and knowing instantly which one has your feel. (So long as you like scuffy, scuffy with a scratch, or scuffy with a chintzy click: the MX world’s your oyster.)

But yeah, being alive is basically the entire story. I’d argue that “stickers”, artisanally wound Korean springs and the fanboy ooze of lube also helped at the time. When the only MX was Cherry MX, Geekhack etc. really needed the creative outlet to amuse themselves. :lol:
Ah, the primordial days on Geekhack. When your only choice was Cherry or Model M, and key weight was measured by how many nickels you could stack on the key...

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Muirium
µ

05 Nov 2022, 23:58

There was still a lot of that going on when I first showed up in 2013, as I recall. Nickels were definitely a thing, and debates about "ergo weighting" MX: whether panda vs. ergo clears or using different weights of Korean springs to ape Topre's "variable" weighting. Didn't strike me as desirable then, or now!

Topre was definitely in the conversation, by the way, as were Alps and Model F here on vintage centric DT. I definitely remember "entering the Alps vortex" when I got my SGI and fancied learning about the different switches in that line; maybe naively expecting them to be as finite and knowable as MX. By the time I knew the difference between "pine" and "bamboo," what a taxi yellow was and why I needed a Magnavox VideoWriter I was having trouble remembering the way back to reality and quit while I still had the chance. ;)

apastuszak

06 Nov 2022, 15:31

I'm nowhere near a mech expert, and I'm just tipping my toes in the enthusiast waters. But from what I have played with, I find that I like Cherry MX style switches the least.

The first mechanical keyboard I ever used was an APC rack server keyboard with Cherry MX black switches. A coworker gave it to me and told me to use it because it was mechanical. I HATED it. I forced myself to use it for about 2 months and then gave up and went back to whatever keyboard work provided for me.

I decided to dive in again, and bought a keyboard with Gateron Blue switches. I thought that one felt better, but I did not like the high pitched sound of the keys, and I was making an incredible amount of typos. I stuck with that for a while but was not happy with it.

Then I decided to order a Unicomp Model M. That one felt wonderful. I like the noise of the keyboard much better, and I stopped making so many typos.

Being a longtime Apple fanboy, I then bought a Matias Tactile Pro. Loved that one just as much as the Model M.

Then I dipped my toes back in the Cherry MX clone world. I bought a Royal Kludge 96 and got NovelKeys Box Joe switches. I liked it, but really preferred the Model M, and the Matias.

Then I got a Keychron K8 Pro and got lubed Glorious Panda switches for it. This I liked a lot more, but didn't like as much as the Model M or Matias.

Then I got some Apple Extended Keyboards IIs. One has Mitusmi switches and one dampened Cream switches in it. I absolutely love those keyboards. and they rank up there with Matias and Model Ms on my preference list.

The I bought a Matias mini Quiet Click. I like it, but it's TOO dampened. It's the quietest mechanical keyboard I ever used. But it just doesn't feel as good as the Tactile Pro or an AEK II.

So, I just find that I like Cherry MX style switches the least. Maybe I just haven't tried the right switch. I know about Clickiez switches and maybe I'll like those. But there are SO MANY Cherry MX clones, you can really spend a fortune trying to find the right one.

And modern keyboard enthusiasts seem to have 2 things in common: they hate full size keyboards and they hate clicky switches. A few different YouTube videos I have seen have people tell you the only good switch its a linear switch.

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LambdaCore

06 Nov 2022, 16:55

apastuszak wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 15:31
And modern keyboard enthusiasts seem to have 2 things in common: they hate full size keyboards and they hate clicky switches. A few different YouTube videos I have seen have people tell you the only good switch its a linear switch.
I feel like that’s the key to modern keyboard enthusiasts. Some of the best modern day options tend to be linear switches, with far fewer decent clicky or tactile options - and those options still pale in comparison to their vintage counterparts. That’s also why there’s an obsession with lubing, I found this interesting when I got into Topre and found I preferred the sound of my stock 55g Topre to the sound of my lubed silenced 45g Topre, which also left me unimpressed with the feather light weighting.

I think the obsession with Cherry MX is perpetuated by this fact, the push for linear switches on top of hotswap keyboards favoring cherry pin out, keycaps favoring cherry mount, etc. I think the next big push is going to be towards Hall effect, though, which has me thinking Cherry’s dominance won’t last too much longer, especially as clones diverge more and more to the point that it in of itself is practically a new, better design.

I think the mistake in all of this is there tends to be a view point that the wider hobby is split up between vintage and modern keyboard enthusiasts, when in reality I feel like in many cases it’s closer to tactile/clicky vs linear. In my case, I enjoy the history, aesthetic and layouts to these older boards, however in many cases people want solid clicky or tactile options which are few and far between these days. I feel like the more this idea is perpetuated, the less focus companies have on tactile/clicky options, leading to a general lower quality and quantity, pushing specifically at vintage enthusiasts like myself who *enjoy* the age, aesthetic and layouts of my vintage boards which tend to push a lot of modern keyboard enthusiasts away.

Findecanor

06 Nov 2022, 17:56

While there are lots of linear MX clones, I'm actually amazed by the number of Cherry MX clones that are tactile — with the tactile event early in the key travel. These include the Holy/Glorious/Fekker Pandas and Zealio V2, but also a few more.
All of these are from clone manufacturers: Cherry never made a switch which such characteristics.
Just too bad that they tend to be are priced relatively high.

apastuszak

06 Nov 2022, 18:58

I don't use a numpad all that often when I use a keyboard. But those few times I want to use it, and it's not there, I really miss it. The TLK and smaller layout crowd always tell me to buy an external numpad. Well, I did that. But they cost almost as much as a keyboard does. And they take up another USB port.

I don't know how anyone comfortably types on a 40% layout. Once I get below a TLK, I get really frustrated with the layout missing things I expect. I bought a mini-M when they first came out. And it's a good keyboard. But after 6 months, I ordered a New Model M.

I definitely see the line between tactile enthusiasts and linear enthusiasts. But even the new tactile crowd doesn't like clicky switches. And I get the crowd that says "I don't use a numpad, why would I want a keyboard that has one." My argument is that once you get used to having a numpad, you're not going to want to use a keyboard without one. Now that may be just me because I'm an old fart and I grew up with keyboards that had numpads.

But it does boggle my mind that companies make keyboards with LESS keys, which means they're using less switches and keycaps but they charge more for them than full size keyboards.

I would really love to try some Topre keyboards. But they're so damn expensive. And I don't believe anyone makes a Topre switch tester.

Hak Foo

06 Nov 2022, 19:58

It seems like in the MX universe, the iteration around linear and tactile designs is almost constant-- every week a new brand with 63 permutations of spring weight, housing plastic and colour, and flavour and quantity of lubrication-- but clicky switches tend to move in lurches.

I can recall the big breakthrough was "we can get MX Green in an entire board, not just a spacebar!" It feels like slightly after that, we saw the Cambrian Explosion of MX clones (i. e. early Gateron and Kailh products) which were mostly "more or less the same but cheaper for OEMs piling into the market". Remember when people skewered Razer for using Kailh switches instead of Cherry?

It felt like from this perspective, the next major shift was the introduction of click-bar designs (Kailh Box) which seem to have become the go-to clicky choice now. It remains to be seen if click-leaf (Clickiez) will trigger another market shift.

I do think that the meme market has affected this. I can recall in the earlier years of this hobby, "Clicky = Mechanical" was the vibe. Linear and tactile were either "used POS boards being sold cheap" or a novelty that you had to go out of your way to find. (i. e. those almost "prototype" Cherry G86-62410 with Browns, where later models were rubber dome) The Model M was the reference implementation, and everyone with an old rubber dome on eBay called it clicky in the hopes people would buy it. At some point, linear and tactile took over. I suspect this had to do with when the audience moved from professionals (writers, programmers) to gamers, as you could ride a linear switch in some ways to enhance APM that wouldn't work as well with a clicky.

I ended up building very similar PCBs with Matias Click and Kailh Box Pale Blue, and honestly, I like them feel-wise similarly. The Kailh seems to be a bit "tighter" and heavier, but that could be because it's got significant mileage on it now. It feels like I'm missing out more on the customization/keycap angle with the ALPS ecosystem. Since I don't want to cut up an irreplacable vintage product, I'm pretty much stuck with whatever Tai-Hao sells, unless I want to start picking apart dead typewriters and dealing with random legends on the caps.

JCMax

06 Nov 2022, 20:03

I would say that Cherry MX is not a bad switch, but it is a mediocre one. It certainly doesn't deserve to be the industry standard it has become, which I think is really just because of how cheap they are to make and being in the right place at the right time.

A lot of the clones I've tried are better. Especially some of the tactile/clicky ones. Good switches like Gateron, Oetemu, and Kailh are a LOT nicer to type on than Cherry. But there's just so many out there you don't know where to start. It's good to see how innovative they can get.
LambdaCore wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 16:55
I think the next big push is going to be towards Hall effect, though, which has me thinking Cherry’s dominance won’t last too much longer, especially as clones diverge more and more to the point that it in of itself is practically a new, better design.
I hope so. The MX style stem/keycap combo is still going to be around. That's because it's already standard and there's not really any push or reason to change that. It is probably no less stable than ALPs/Matais.
LambdaCore wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 16:55
I think the mistake in all of this is there tends to be a view point that the wider hobby is split up between vintage and modern keyboard enthusiasts, when in reality I feel like in many cases it’s closer to tactile/clicky vs linear. In my case, I enjoy the history, aesthetic and layouts to these older boards, however in many cases people want solid clicky or tactile options which are few and far between these days. I feel like the more this idea is perpetuated, the less focus companies have on tactile/clicky options, leading to a general lower quality and quantity, pushing specifically at vintage enthusiasts like myself who *enjoy* the age, aesthetic and layouts of my vintage boards which tend to push a lot of modern keyboard enthusiasts away.
I really don't like that. I wish tactile/clicky would get a bit more love than what they do. But the gamer's market has been driving the mech market, and they've wanted nothing but linears... :( .
Findecanor wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 17:56
While there are lots of linear MX clones, I'm actually amazed by the number of Cherry MX clones that are tactile — with the tactile event early in the key travel. These include the Holy/Glorious/Fekker Pandas and Zealio V2, but also a few more.
All of these are from clone manufacturers: Cherry never made a switch which such characteristics.
Just too bad that they tend to be are priced relatively high.
I heard somewhere it's because Cherry MX blue just half-ass modded their linear-switch design to make their clicky-switches. Same with tactile-switches. That's probably why those Cherry Switches are particularly shit. They didn't get the proper ground up design they deserve.

Although, color coding the switch type was cool. But it shows how little they gave a damn about the tactile switches and how half-assed they were when they made them "brown". :roll:
apastuszak wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 18:58
But it does boggle my mind that companies make keyboards with LESS keys, which means they're using less switches and keycaps but they charge more for them than full size keyboards.
Amen to that!!!

apastuszak

06 Nov 2022, 23:02

I've read a few stories that say Cherry's tooling is worn out and needs to be updated. Kind of like what happened with Unicomp with the Classic keyboard. Unicomp finally released the New Model M, with all new tooling.

Cherry is also under pressure to keep prices down. Gateron and Kailh both make switches using new tooling that are cheaper per unit than a Cherry switch.

I don't know if Cherry has updated their molds and tooling.

When I look at keyboard videos on YouTube or read the mechanical keyboard subreddit, nobody is talking about Cherry brand switches.

I remember I asked on reddit what the closest switch was to a Model M. And a debate started over which box switch I should buy. First people said I should by the Box Navy. Then a bunch of people said, the Box Navy was too stiff, and I should buy a Box Jade. Eventually they settled on the fact most of the people commenting had never actually used a Model M, and were just trying to find the loudest clicky switch they could think of.

The one thing I don't like on keyboards is LEDs. I know that a lot of people are really into them. And if they are, that's great. But I have no desire to light up my keyboard, especially when it's just lighting up the area around the keycap and between it, and not the actual letter/number/symbol on the surface of the keycap.

del20nd

07 Nov 2022, 00:17

JCMax wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 20:03
I would say that Cherry MX is not a bad switch, but it is a mediocre one. It certainly doesn't deserve to be the industry standard it has become, which I think is really just because of how cheap they are to make and being in the right place at the right time.

A lot of the clones I've tried are better. Especially some of the tactile/clicky ones. Good switches like Gateron, Oetemu, and Kailh are a LOT nicer to type on than Cherry. But there's just so many out there you don't know where to start. It's good to see how innovative they can get.

...I wish tactile/clicky would get a bit more love than what they do. But the gamer's market has been driving the mech market, and they've wanted nothing but linears... :( ....
Credit where it's due, the MX Red is a perfectly fine switch. Good even. Not necessarily great, but pleasant enough. Granted it's the only modern linear switch I've spent any decent amount of time with, but I didn't find it offensive or anything. They may have been my gateway into linears, and that's worth something coming from a clicky-for-life guy.

The whole clicky vs linear debate thing is its own kettle, but while I lean clicky, linears are also nice to type on from time to time. I take nothing away from them.

Back to Cherry's:

Blacks were never meant for real typing, so I can't really judge them on that front. They're designed for taking a beating in a POS terminal or on a factory production floor, and punching in a handful of numbers at a time. They excel in that niche.

Browns and blues? Not my thing. I have a blue board that comes out of storage every 2-3 years, just to remind me why it's there in the first place (and why to try expensive things before you just go out and buy them.) It's supposedly from the "better" era of that switch, circa 2011 or so, but I'm not seeing it. Blues feel pretty nice for about 15 minutes, get fatiguing to type on after that, and all the while their noise drives me up a wall.

When I've tried browns, they felt like worse reds. I don't own an MX brown keyboard.

SK-8K

07 Nov 2022, 01:49

The thing I like about the MX style switches is easy prototyping. No need to worry about a mounting plate which is why I haven't built an Alps custom yet as I am still figuring out details on how to design the mounting plates.

apastuszak

07 Nov 2022, 02:18

del20nd wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 00:17
JCMax wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 20:03
I would say that Cherry MX is not a bad switch, but it is a mediocre one. It certainly doesn't deserve to be the industry standard it has become, which I think is really just because of how cheap they are to make and being in the right place at the right time.

A lot of the clones I've tried are better. Especially some of the tactile/clicky ones. Good switches like Gateron, Oetemu, and Kailh are a LOT nicer to type on than Cherry. But there's just so many out there you don't know where to start. It's good to see how innovative they can get.

...I wish tactile/clicky would get a bit more love than what they do. But the gamer's market has been driving the mech market, and they've wanted nothing but linears... :( ....
Credit where it's due, the MX Red is a perfectly fine switch. Good even. Not necessarily great, but pleasant enough. Granted it's the only modern linear switch I've spent any decent amount of time with, but I didn't find it offensive or anything. They may have been my gateway into linears, and that's worth something coming from a clicky-for-life guy.

The whole clicky vs linear debate thing is its own kettle, but while I lean clicky, linears are also nice to type on from time to time. I take nothing away from them.

Back to Cherry's:

Blacks were never meant for real typing, so I can't really judge them on that front. They're designed for taking a beating in a POS terminal or on a factory production floor, and punching in a handful of numbers at a time. They excel in that niche.

Browns and blues? Not my thing. I have a blue board that comes out of storage every 2-3 years, just to remind me why it's there in the first place (and why to try expensive things before you just go out and buy them.) It's supposedly from the "better" era of that switch, circa 2011 or so, but I'm not seeing it. Blues feel pretty nice for about 15 minutes, get fatiguing to type on after that, and all the while their noise drives me up a wall.

When I've tried browns, they felt like worse reds. I don't own an MX brown keyboard.
For me, Browns just aren't tactile enough. They're kind of a meh switch for me. And I really don't like linear switches.

The choice in switches today is completely overwhelming. And I feel like switch hopping is chasing the 1%. Right now I am typing on Glorious Panda switches. When I was looking for a tactile switch, these came up #1 on a few lists, and were in the top 5 of all the lists I researched.

People are now telling me I need to check out the U4T switches. But how much of a difference am I really going to feel with U4T switches vs Glorious Pandas? Is it really worth spending $50.00-$60.00 on news switches? And then when I find U4Ts, I need to pick which spring I want, if I want them in white housing or a black housing. Maybe I want a black back with a white front? Now I am staring at some website with complete decision paralysis trying to get switches.

You want to impress me? Invent a Cherry MX style switch that has it's tactile bump at the exact moment the computer picks up the keypress, like a Model M does. I don't think any switch maker is even thinking about that.

Now I am looking at Clickiez switches and again need to decide between a 40g or 75g. Again, decision paralysis.

I find YouTube videos of some guy building his friend a keyboard to be pretty hilarious. He's trying to get the guy to pick out a switch and keycap profile that they're going to like. When the person is once again met with decision paralysis, the builder ends up picking for them and telling them they'll be most happy with linear switches and OEM profile keycaps.

Besdies switches and keycaps, there are other things I think are VERY important.

1. Do you want your keyboard to have USB ports so, you can plugin a thumb drive, a mouse/trackball, or a security key, such as a Yubikey?
2. Do you want your keyboard to be programmable, so you can run macros and launch apps by pushing a single key?
3. Would you like to be able to switch between a Mac and a Windows layout easily?

I get why vintage keyboards don't have USB ports. But if you're dropping $500 on a "custom mechanical keyboard" it better have a USB port for my trackball and Yubikey, and it better have QMK/VIAL support (now that I have used VIAL, VIA support is not good enough) so I can program it. It boggles my mind that my $70 RK100 has 2 USB ports, and is switchable between Mac and Windows. But as you move up the price food chain, those features drop off the keyboard.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

07 Nov 2022, 06:51

del20nd wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 00:17
[…] Blacks were never meant for real typing, so I can't really judge them on that front. They're designed for taking a beating in a POS terminal or on a factory production floor, and punching in a handful of numbers at a time. […]
Please allow me a good laugh. You seem to mean buckling spring switches.
apastuszak wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 02:18

You want to impress me? Invent a Cherry MX style switch that has it's tactile bump at the exact moment the computer picks up the keypress, like a Model M does. […]
Isn’t that waht a rubber dome does?

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Muirium
µ

07 Nov 2022, 12:07

kbdfr wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 06:51
del20nd wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 00:17
[…] Blacks were never meant for real typing,
Please allow me a good laugh.
Quite agree. :lol:

MX black is the OG MX. (All the others are later tweaks to the design.) They’re okay, depending on how worn Cherry’s moulds were when they were manufactured. Generally: the older the better, even NIB. In my experience, their scuffy friction is a defect they’re born with, rather than a sign they need “broken in.” Give me an 80s Sys Req key over a well worn 2010 vowel any day of the week.

MX red, meanwhile, is always bad. They scuff so much they creak! Let me dig out that video where I poked at my Filco…

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=20371
Hak Foo wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 19:58
At some point, linear and tactile took over. I suspect this had to do with when the audience moved from professionals (writers, programmers) to gamers, as you could ride a linear switch in some ways to enhance APM that wouldn't work as well with a clicky.
Correct. When I showed up, via said route of “I’m hearing good things about clicky keyboards,” it was very much a writer / coder topic and hobby. I remember what finally put me over the edge from idle curiosity into active interest was this blog I mentioned in my first ever post at DT. Mechanical keyboards were clicky and for real typing back then. The noise was a badge of honour: the louder, the busier your work.

I still like a good clicky board. (My definition: IBM Model F, blue Alps, and little else.) But my long form writing mostly happens on tactile Topre and I’ve favoured it for years. Flow is the key. A wave o typing racket is quite optional.

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maxmalkav
dye hard

07 Nov 2022, 14:33

Findecanor wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 17:56
While there are lots of linear MX clones, I'm actually amazed by the number of Cherry MX clones that are tactile — with the tactile event early in the key travel. These include the Holy/Glorious/Fekker Pandas and Zealio V2, but also a few more.
All of these are from clone manufacturers: Cherry never made a switch which such characteristics.
Just too bad that they tend to be are priced relatively high.
I have reconnected recently with the hobby and I am surprised how much MX clones have improved compared to the original Cherry MX, specially those tactiles with early event. Those you comment are really pricey, but interesting things are also happening on the budget tier, I have quite good experiences with Ajazz Huano Kiwi and Banana, JWK T1 or Akko Ocean Blue. The most expensive I have tried is the Teecse Purple Panda, still a bit cheaper that Gazzew U4T, which seem to be king of the new wave of tactile switches.

apastuszak

07 Nov 2022, 14:41

kbdfr wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 06:51
del20nd wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 00:17
[…] Blacks were never meant for real typing, so I can't really judge them on that front. They're designed for taking a beating in a POS terminal or on a factory production floor, and punching in a handful of numbers at a time. […]
Please allow me a good laugh. You seem to mean buckling spring switches.
apastuszak wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 02:18

You want to impress me? Invent a Cherry MX style switch that has it's tactile bump at the exact moment the computer picks up the keypress, like a Model M does. […]
Isn’t that waht a rubber dome does?
I don't think rubber domes have a tactile bump. If there is one, there is not enough of one to me think the keyboard feels tactile.

davkol

07 Nov 2022, 14:49

del20nd wrote:
05 Nov 2022, 20:51
2) The patent on the Cherry MX switch design expired in 2014. This opened the door for the clones who could just copy what was already popular. It took awhile for them to catch up, but eventually they did. The MX keycap design would've already been fairly popular by this point so became the de facto "standard".
I have seen this repeated ad nauseam, especially on Reddit, with no evidence as to why it's relevant.

Patents didn't prevent distribution of countless clone switches in the 80s and 90s, and when selling keyboards with this kind of switches became more profitable again, well, for example Kailh's MX clones (the infamous yellow ones) were in circulation as early as 2011.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

07 Nov 2022, 16:02

apastuszak wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 14:41
kbdfr wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 06:51
apastuszak wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 02:18

You want to impress me? Invent a Cherry MX style switch that has it's tactile bump at the exact moment the computer picks up the keypress, like a Model M does. […]
Isn’t that waht a rubber dome does?
I don't think rubber domes have a tactile bump. If there is one, there is not enough of one to me think the keyboard feels tactile.
Last time I tried a rubber dome, it trasmitted the keypress to the computer at the exact moment I bottomed out.
That was the tactile moment.

del20nd

07 Nov 2022, 16:58

apastuszak wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 02:18

The choice in switches today is completely overwhelming. And I feel like switch hopping is chasing the 1%. Right now I am typing on Glorious Panda switches. When I was looking for a tactile switch, these came up #1 on a few lists, and were in the top 5 of all the lists I researched.

People are now telling me I need to check out the U4T switches. But how much of a difference am I really going to feel with U4T switches vs Glorious Pandas? Is it really worth spending $50.00-$60.00 on news switches? And then when I find U4Ts, I need to pick which spring I want, if I want them in white housing or a black housing. Maybe I want a black back with a white front? Now I am staring at some website with complete decision paralysis trying to get switches.

Agreed. There's way too much choice out there and not enough ways to choose without paying a whole lot of money. Reviews only tell you so much. I've mostly retired from trying new switches, except in the rare case that a non rubber dome or scissor switch keyboard winds up at a local thrift store or recycling center (how I wound up with my MX Red board.) I'm happy where I am.

This is almost a cliche but I also don't understand why smaller boards cost more than bigger ones. Except in very specific cases like the Model M TKL, where a small board was produced for a limited time and in much smaller quantity, paying more for less does not make any sense. For $500 I'd better not be hitting modifiers for the function keys.
davkol wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 14:49
del20nd wrote:
05 Nov 2022, 20:51
2) The patent on the Cherry MX switch design expired in 2014. This opened the door for the clones who could just copy what was already popular. It took awhile for them to catch up, but eventually they did. The MX keycap design would've already been fairly popular by this point so became the de facto "standard".
I have seen this repeated ad nauseam, especially on Reddit, with no evidence as to why it's relevant.

Patents didn't prevent distribution of countless clone switches in the 80s and 90s, and when selling keyboards with this kind of switches became more profitable again, well, for example Kailh's MX clones (the infamous yellow ones) were in circulation as early as 2011.
Fair points. I'll admit that I'm just an armchair speculator working with public knowledge. I don't have any inside track on this stuff.

It seemed to me like the timing lined up a little too well for an explosion of Cherry compatibles to spring up out of nowhere. It's possible that some cloners in the early 2010s got away with it because Cherry didn't feel like pursuing litigation with their patent's expiration just around the corner, but again I'm just throwing wild guesses into the wind. Unless you're an exec at one of these companies there's really nothing to go off of.

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Muirium
µ

07 Nov 2022, 19:02

del20nd wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 16:58
For $500 I'd better not be hitting modifiers for the function keys.
I know, the very existence of people who prefer 60% is forcing you to fork out the silly readies. Forcing! It’s awful, make it stop, cleanse the earth of this wrongness. :P

Fwiw: I’ve never paid more than 250 for a keyboard. And my compacts range from marvellous to UnobtainIBM. China can go eat boogers.

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LambdaCore

07 Nov 2022, 21:50

JCMax wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 20:03

A lot of the clones I've tried are better. Especially some of the tactile/clicky ones. Good switches like Gateron, Oetemu, and Kailh are a LOT nicer to type on than Cherry. But there's just so many out there you don't know where to start. It's good to see how innovative they can get.

I hope so. The MX style stem/keycap combo is still going to be around. That's because it's already standard and there's not really any push or reason to change that. It is probably no less stable than ALPs/Matais.

[

I really don't like that. I wish tactile/clicky would get a bit more love than what they do. But the gamer's market has been driving the mech market, and they've wanted nothing but linears... :( .
I feel like as long as the market is almost exclusively targeted towards gamers, we’re going to see this perpetuated. The myth that linear keyboards, or anything past a keyboard without obvious blocking around the WASD cluster, providing a real advantage combined with how gamers are the target demo leave linears as the modern favorite.

As someone prior mentioned we ARE getting more tactile options, but even they admitted they tend to come at a premium. This means a lot of people getting started are experiencing pretty mediocre to outright bad tactile switches as their first tactile switch, even worse for clickies in terms of sound with many starting on MX blues or clones of MX blues.

It also starts to impact taste, a lot of MX linears are feather light outside of some extreme exceptions (MX Black) which I think became apparent when I saw people genuinely claiming 55g Topre was fatiguing to type on for long periods of time, same thing in regards to a lot of modern linear keyboard enthusiasts trying out membrane buckling springs for the first time, though I’d suspect those types might be a lil better with capacitive buckling springs for their slightly lighter weighting.

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paperWasp

07 Nov 2022, 22:33

Isn't MX just a "USB" for keyboard switches? The standard seems good enough. Plugging compatible caps or switches of your choice is up to you.

davkol

07 Nov 2022, 23:36

LambdaCore wrote:
07 Nov 2022, 21:50
I saw people genuinely claiming 55g Topre was fatiguing to type on for long periods of time
Viagra cialis horse laxatives cheap(Topre 87U 55 g raffle)

Image
I have both the 45 g and the 55 g version. The 45 g is just right for me, but the 55 g feels like fingering a shark's anus - it's tight and I might end up getting hurt.
Julle

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