Looking for more 60% sized keyboards

What is your favorite sized keyboard?

Full
9
10%
Tenkeyless
17
19%
70% - includes F1-12
17
19%
60%
45
51%
 
Total votes: 88

User avatar
RC-1140

28 Nov 2012, 23:27

naisanza wrote: Curiously, what do you use the function row for? I use it in linux quite often, but mainly just to switch between terminals.
Yup Linux. Very important for mc and other console programs. Also I don't think portability is an important factor against a G84-4100. They're like one of the smallest mechanical keyboards.

laffindude

29 Nov 2012, 02:14

CeeSA wrote:i don't want to mess with you taste (i wrote optical because your argument is your taste). I have a more benefit view to this. I explained why i enjoy less wide keyboard. You did not use the space for the non existing F row. Or you did not explain it until now. I understand that you like keyboard without F row and you don't miss it.
I am just interested in a benefit/argument for 60% keyboards beside the look or taste. And imo there is non. And nobody brings one.
I actually prefer having the F keys on function layer. It means I can keep my hands on the homerow and touch type them. That is also the benefit for having the arrow pg up/dn all right there. It is very convenient to not having to move your hand from the homerow when you're working primarily with text.

naisanza

29 Nov 2012, 02:56

RC-1140 wrote:
naisanza wrote: Curiously, what do you use the function row for? I use it in linux quite often, but mainly just to switch between terminals.
Yup Linux. Very important for mc and other console programs. Also I don't think portability is an important factor against a G84-4100. They're like one of the smallest mechanical keyboards.
Isn't the G84-4100 a 70%? The HHKB is a 60% and it's smaller than the G84-4100.

What console programs do you use besides midnight commander? I use emacs for everything.
Last edited by naisanza on 29 Nov 2012, 13:19, edited 1 time in total.

naisanza

29 Nov 2012, 03:10

laffindude wrote:
CeeSA wrote:i don't want to mess with you taste (i wrote optical because your argument is your taste). I have a more benefit view to this. I explained why i enjoy less wide keyboard. You did not use the space for the non existing F row. Or you did not explain it until now. I understand that you like keyboard without F row and you don't miss it.
I am just interested in a benefit/argument for 60% keyboards beside the look or taste. And imo there is non. And nobody brings one.
I actually prefer having the F keys on function layer. It means I can keep my hands on the homerow and touch type them. That is also the benefit for having the arrow pg up/dn all right there. It is very convenient to not having to move your hand from the homerow when you're working primarily with text.
The layout of the HHKB is very thought-out. I haven't found a better layout yet. I thought the Pure and Poker were good, but they've only come close. After not using my HHKB for a little while, going back to it is great. Everything feels where it should be and where everything makes sense. I use emacs for everything so I never need home/end/pgup/pgdn keys. Reaching the F1-12 keys with a modifier key has never been an issue either. After three years with my HHKB I bought a Race because I thought having a dedicated F1-12 row will help. It was the same, but since they are a row higher, I actually had to reach further to get to the F1-12 keys. So, in a way, having the F1-12 keys on the numrow is actually faster to get to, because they are closer. I think this is physically impossible to refute.
Last edited by naisanza on 29 Nov 2012, 13:20, edited 1 time in total.

laffindude

29 Nov 2012, 03:48

emacs is pretty much built around the HHKB. emacs would drive me nuts with amount of pinky use with the HHKB ctrl. Only modifier I hit with the pinky is shift. I would prefer a shorter space bar on Poker and Pure and add the FN in addition to the standard modifiers, so i can thumb the FN key without curling the thumb. If not, I wouldn't mind it under where apps key are, since that's the key I use as a FN key for my AHK script to simulate the 60%layout (I use the base of my pinky to hit control and apps, only key I can't reach with the right apps location is 6, but I hit that left index finger anyways). We're all different and have our own ways. Not sure why someone need to justify their likes for layout they prefer.

naisanza

29 Nov 2012, 05:28

laffindude wrote:emacs is pretty much built around the HHKB. emacs would drive me nuts with amount of pinky use with the HHKB ctrl. Only modifier I hit with the pinky is shift. I would prefer a shorter space bar on Poker and Pure and add the FN in addition to the standard modifiers, so i can thumb the FN key without curling the thumb. If not, I wouldn't mind it under where apps key are, since that's the key I use as a FN key for my AHK script to simulate the 60%layout (I use the base of my pinky to hit control and apps, only key I can't reach with the right apps location is 6, but I hit that left index finger anyways). We're all different and have our own ways. Not sure why someone need to justify their likes for layout they prefer.
I would say that HHKB layout was designed for nix users, and their design is very smart. I know you can change the layout to suit Mac and Windows as well.

I believe I was providing a counter-point to your justification about not needing to move your hand from the home row and merely stating that reaching to the numrow is physically a shorter distance than reaching to the F1-12 row. Only coincidentally is this layout also the best that I've used.

laffindude

29 Nov 2012, 06:40

The last statement isn't a sharpened stick pointed at you, but more of a general statement ;)
My only real complaint about HHKB is the location of FN. I don't like it way out there. I prefer inverted T than the diamond, but I am sure I could get used to that (I do have a Pro2 sitting in storage with alot of other boards I don't use/collected). I don't think it'll ever come out of the box again since I got my Poker and Pure.

*edit: I know you can change it, but I prefer all the mods I can use ;o

User avatar
RC-1140

29 Nov 2012, 08:03

Yes, the G84-4100 is a 70%. But it has a very small footprint as it uses Cherry ML switches, which are a lot smaller than the MX switches.

I do lots of stuff on the console. I use vim a lot, and also mc, htop, wicd-curses, irssi. And some other programs I just don't remember atm.

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

29 Nov 2012, 10:16

naisanza wrote:
kbdfr wrote:Why stop by 60%?

There is no real need for any numbers (write "four hundred and fifty-six" instead of 456).
No need for "x" (simply write "ks")
No need for a question mark ("How are you" is a question even without it).
No need for Shift (plain lower case is good enough).
No need for [ and ], for < and >, for { and }.
No need for / and |, for ~, for %, for _, for &.

And even if you want them all, 4 keys are enough:
http://bloggenist.blogspot.de/2010/11/k ... asten.html
[Video]
I hope this was a joke, because I thought it was.
Of course it was a joke. Or rather irony.
Your main argument seems to be "waste of space". Do you really have so much stuff on your desk, and so much stuff that is more important than your keyboard? By your photo, apparently you still have quite a lot of space left. So your argument "waste of space" would resume to optical reasons.

There's nothing to say against that, of course. But then one should be aware of it.

naisanza

29 Nov 2012, 13:35

laffindude wrote:The last statement isn't a sharpened stick pointed at you, but more of a general statement ;)
My only real complaint about HHKB is the location of FN. I don't like it way out there. I prefer inverted T than the diamond, but I am sure I could get used to that (I do have a Pro2 sitting in storage with alot of other boards I don't use/collected). I don't think it'll ever come out of the box again since I got my Poker and Pure.

*edit: I know you can change it, but I prefer all the mods I can use ;o
I agree with you about the diamond, which is why I like how the poker and pure made an arrow-lock feature, which I think is ingenious.

oo, which Pro2 did you get, the regular or non-print one? If you are willing to, how much would you sell it for? :)

naisanza

29 Nov 2012, 13:40

RC-1140 wrote:Yes, the G84-4100 is a 70%. But it has a very small footprint as it uses Cherry ML switches, which are a lot smaller than the MX switches.

I do lots of stuff on the console. I use vim a lot, and also mc, htop, wicd-curses, irssi. And some other programs I just don't remember atm.
That's interesting, Cherry ML switches. I've dabbled in vi, but emacs just came more intuitive to me, plus the organization mode that emacs has works wonders for me keeping track of agendas and lists.

naisanza

29 Nov 2012, 14:47

kbdfr wrote:
naisanza wrote:
kbdfr wrote:Why stop by 60%?

There is no real need for any numbers (write "four hundred and fifty-six" instead of 456).
No need for "x" (simply write "ks")
No need for a question mark ("How are you" is a question even without it).
No need for Shift (plain lower case is good enough).
No need for [ and ], for < and >, for { and }.
No need for / and |, for ~, for %, for _, for &.

And even if you want them all, 4 keys are enough:
http://bloggenist.blogspot.de/2010/11/k ... asten.html
[Video]
I hope this was a joke, because I thought it was.
Of course it was a joke. Or rather irony.
Your main argument seems to be "waste of space". Do you really have so much stuff on your desk, and so much stuff that is more important than your keyboard? By your photo, apparently you still have quite a lot of space left. So your argument "waste of space" would resume to optical reasons.

There's nothing to say against that, of course. But then one should be aware of it.
I suppose it seems like a waste to me because on a regular basis the F1-12 row would be used maybe 8% of the time or even less compared to all the other keys. Physically, it is smaller, nonetheless, but it does look less cluttered to me not having that F1-12 row. It's more pleasing to my eye and a cleaner design.

This is what my desk looks like.
Image

ygong77

29 Nov 2012, 19:12

tenkeyless and 60% is like the perfect size

naisanza

29 Nov 2012, 19:49

ygong77 wrote:tenkeyless and 60% is like the perfect size
60% for sure, for me. I gave a 70% a try and that didn't end well. I will never go higher than 60%, again.

laffindude

29 Nov 2012, 22:52

I have a charcoal printed ANSI. It is staying in the collection, since I am a hoarder ;)

I don't like 70-75%, since function row is not used often enough to need to be physical keys. I rather have edit cluster and arrows (while still have a spare set on the function layer in the main typing area of course).

User avatar
rknize

29 Nov 2012, 23:00

naisanza wrote:As a curiosity, have you tried the HHKB? I'm wondering if you would like it. In terms of artistic flavor, the HHKB is by far the best one that I've ever seen.
I haven't. The Fn layering looks too frustrating for me to spend the cash required to try it. The lack of potentially-dedicated nav keys would be frustrating for certain use cases.

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 02:41

laffindude wrote:I have a charcoal printed ANSI. It is staying in the collection, since I am a hoarder ;)

I don't like 70-75%, since function row is not used often enough to need to be physical keys. I rather have edit cluster and arrows (while still have a spare set on the function layer in the main typing area of course).
haha aw.

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 02:44

rknize wrote:
naisanza wrote:As a curiosity, have you tried the HHKB? I'm wondering if you would like it. In terms of artistic flavor, the HHKB is by far the best one that I've ever seen.
I haven't. The Fn layering looks too frustrating for me to spend the cash required to try it. The lack of potentially-dedicated nav keys would be frustrating for certain use cases.
It's definitely a collector's item, the HHKB. The only time's I ever found issues with not having dedicated arrow keys is when I'm trying to play a game that requires them, like tetris. With emulators, I could remap them, though.

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

30 Nov 2012, 07:51

naisanza wrote:[…]
This is what my desk looks like.
Image
And you complain about anything bigger than 60% being a waste of space? :lol:

Here's my desk:
mydesk-s.jpg
mydesk-s.jpg (48.17 KiB) Viewed 9743 times

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 12:49

kbdfr wrote:
naisanza wrote:[…]
This is what my desk looks like.
Image
And you complain about anything bigger than 60% being a waste of space? :lol:

Here's my desk:
mydesk-s.jpg
Anything more than 60% feels too cluttered, and too messy. There are too many keys that feel they arent needed to be in front of me. :p

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

30 Nov 2012, 13:09

CeeSA wrote:I am just interested in a benefit/argument for 60% keyboards beside the look or taste. And imo there is non. And nobody brings one.
Q.E.D., or tu put it simply, CeeSA's argument remains valid.

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 13:33

kbdfr wrote:
CeeSA wrote:I am just interested in a benefit/argument for 60% keyboards beside the look or taste. And imo there is non. And nobody brings one.
Q.E.D., or tu put it simply, CeeSA's argument remains valid.
I argued the point that the F1-12 row on a 60% is physically closer to reach in regards to his argument that his hands could remain on the home row. Also, not only is it more compact, it's more convenient to carry. Carrying a 70% would be pushing it and more would be too much.

Where it get's personal is when the dedicated F1-12 row are extra keys that aren't necessary, because they are just as easy to access with a Function key as they are on a dedicated row, and they just add clutter to the overall look and feel.

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

30 Nov 2012, 14:40

Obviously you don't use the F1-F12 keys very often, and surely not combined with Alt, Ctrl, Shift (or even with more than one of those). These combinations are not unusual in quite a lot of professional applications, it would be a curse to have to press an additional key to reach them.

By the way, if saving room on your desk is that important, you should rather consider getting rid of your mouse.
On your photo your mousepad seems to be about ten times the size of your keyboard :mrgreen:

Or use this:

Image

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 15:01

kbdfr wrote:Obviously you don't use the F1-F12 keys very often, and surely not combined with Alt, Ctrl, Shift (or even with more than one of those). These combinations are not unusual in quite a lot of professional applications, it would be a curse to have to press an additional key to reach them.

By the way, if saving room on your desk is that important, you should rather consider getting rid of your mouse.
On your photo your mousepad seems to be about ten times the size of your keyboard :mrgreen:

Or use this:

Image
I'm a gamer (that's why I have an XL mouse pad). I use F1-12 in combination with CTRL and ALT in linux. Software-wise, I use Adobe, Arcsight, emacs, and a few others. The software you're talking about might be those audio mixers or something. I think my point is I have no issue pressing an extra Function key in combination with any other key to use the embedded F1-12 row on a 60% keyboard.

Personally, the 60% is more stylish artistically and more appealing. However, I will only say that about the HHKB, but the Pure and Poker are close, but still inferior in aesthetic design. The HHKB is king of aesthetic design.

Until we get some Stark Industries or Minority Report tech going, I'll stick with my MX518. :P

shibbyllama

30 Nov 2012, 17:28

For people with the HHKB, how do you like the arrow key positioning? That is the biggest turn off for me because I'm just so used to the inverted-T layout of arrow keys. It also seems like it would be quite a stretch to reach Home/End.

I love 60% keyboards both for the aesthetic reasons and the low-movement/ergonomics reasons, so the HHKB should be the mecca for me. But there is just too much non-standard about its layout I'm not sure I could adapt. At my work we have a 4 to 1 computer/person ratio, so I use at least 4 or 5 different work stations through out the day. That means I'm always switching back to a standard layout during those times. Getting used the Pure's function layer wasn't too bad, but I feel like I would be throwing a bigger wrench into the HHKB learning curve if I'm constantly switching back to a standard layout throughout the day.

User avatar
7bit

30 Nov 2012, 17:33

I can't keep up with these percentages!

60% Percent of what?

60% of kbdfr's main keyboard has got 32 more switches than the SkiData and 6 more than my current Tipro setup!
:roll:

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 19:09

shibbyllama wrote:For people with the HHKB, how do you like the arrow key positioning? That is the biggest turn off for me because I'm just so used to the inverted-T layout of arrow keys. It also seems like it would be quite a stretch to reach Home/End.

I love 60% keyboards both for the aesthetic reasons and the low-movement/ergonomics reasons, so the HHKB should be the mecca for me. But there is just too much non-standard about its layout I'm not sure I could adapt. At my work we have a 4 to 1 computer/person ratio, so I use at least 4 or 5 different work stations through out the day. That means I'm always switching back to a standard layout during those times. Getting used the Pure's function layer wasn't too bad, but I feel like I would be throwing a bigger wrench into the HHKB learning curve if I'm constantly switching back to a standard layout throughout the day.
The diamond shape keys were a little bit to get used to, but much more naturally than getting used to the Pure's entire layout, and I'll explain the layout I think would be better for the Pure later. But, if you want to have an arrow-lock feature the HHKB doesn't have that, which was the one reason why that the Pure and Poker appealed to me, because they had that option so I could play tetris, seriously. If I'm just doing work, the HHKB is great.

Personally, the original layout of the keyboard (where the RCTRL is where the CAPSLOCK is) is the best. I heard about that before I even got my HHKB and used KeyTweak to map the RCTRL to CAPS and have been using it that way for 4 years now, and it blew my mind how much better it was. I don't know if you ever used it that way, but I'd say give it a try and maybe you'll love it too. Reaching the RCTRL has always been very strange and most uncomfortable for me. I'm happy now.

The HHKB is worth every penny. I would go as far as saying they've put in the time and research and did their homework well. Let's look at the layout:
Image
The placement of the Function key and the Home/End/PgUp/PgDn and arrow keys are very stress-free to reach. Placing the pinky on the Function key your index finger will rest on the letter "L" and to reach the Home and End key is almost the same as pressing the letters "H" and "N". The learning curve for the HHKB was very intuitive. All I had to think are, if I want the Home or PgUp button it's the higher one, if I want the End or PgDn button it's the one below it. Done.

The Pure has this awkward unnatural layout.
Image
For example, placing the thumb on the Function key my index finger rests on the letter "L". Are you like that, too? If you are I think you could agree with the new layout I'm about to suggest.

I would suggest a new layout for the KBT Pure, because the way it currently is, I have to bend my thumb in towards my palm by quite a lot, which doesn't feel natural, or good.
  • Shift the arrow keys one key over so:
    P is Up
    ; is Down
    L is Left
    ' is Right
  • Change the Home/End locations
    K is Home
    , is End
  • Change PgUp/PgDn locations
    . is Home
    / is End

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 19:14

7bit wrote:I can't keep up with these percentages!

60% Percent of what?

60% of kbdfr's main keyboard has got 32 more switches than the SkiData and 6 more than my current Tipro setup!
:roll:
Hi 7bit :)

60% keyboards are in regards to the Happy Hacking Keyboard or the KBC Poker or KBT Pure.
70% keyboards are in regards to the KBT Race, where it has the dedicated F1-12 row.

shibbyllama

30 Nov 2012, 20:35

naisanza wrote:
The diamond shape keys were a little bit to get used to, but much more naturally than getting used to the Pure's entire layout, and I'll explain the layout I think would be better for the Pure later. But, if you want to have an arrow-lock feature the HHKB doesn't have that, which was the one reason why that the Pure and Poker appealed to me, because they had that option so I could play tetris, seriously. If I'm just doing work, the HHKB is great.

Personally, the original layout of the keyboard (where the RCTRL is where the CAPSLOCK is) is the best. I heard about that before I even got my HHKB and used KeyTweak to map the RCTRL to CAPS and have been using it that way for 4 years now, and it blew my mind how much better it was. I don't know if you ever used it that way, but I'd say give it a try and maybe you'll love it too. Reaching the RCTRL has always been very strange and most uncomfortable for me. I'm happy now.

The HHKB is worth every penny. I would go as far as saying they've put in the time and research and did their homework well. Let's look at the layout:
The placement of the Function key and the Home/End/PgUp/PgDn and arrow keys are very stress-free to reach. Placing the pinky on the Function key your index finger will rest on the letter "L" and to reach the Home and End key is almost the same as pressing the letters "H" and "N". The learning curve for the HHKB was very intuitive. All I had to think are, if I want the Home or PgUp button it's the higher one, if I want the End or PgDn button it's the one below it. Done.

The Pure has this awkward unnatural layout.
For example, placing the thumb on the Function key my index finger rests on the letter "L". Are you like that, too? If you are I think you could agree with the new layout I'm about to suggest.

I would suggest a new layout for the KBT Pure, because the way it currently is, I have to bend my thumb in towards my palm by quite a lot, which doesn't feel natural, or good.
  • Shift the arrow keys one key over so:
    P is Up
    ; is Down
    L is Left
    ' is Right
  • Change the Home/End locations
    K is Home
    , is End
  • Change PgUp/PgDn locations
    . is Home
    / is End
I didn't find getting used to Pure's layout all that difficult, but there is a lot of muscle memory associated with the arrow key cluster. When I go through the motions of using the HHKB's arrow cluster on my Pure (pinky on Pure's tilde, fingers on [ ; ' / for the arrow keys), it seems like I would be stuck to using 2 fingers for the 4 directions. The ring finger is too far to the right and it's too awkward to use my thumb for the down arrow key.

I have tried switching Ctrl and Caps Lock on my Pure, and it's definitely nice and not that hard to get used to. My issue is at work I'm constantly using other workstations that have the normal layout. It wasn't easy switching back and forth so much throughout the day.

I agree PgUp, PgDn, Home and End aren't too bad to get to on the HHKB (though I wish PgUp/PgDn and Home/End were switched), but I found the Pure's layout easy to use as well. I don't ever use PgUp or PgDn though, and those are in a much worse position.

I agree completely that they should have shifted the arrow cluster to the right for the Pure. I still find myself gravitating to those keys. The only explanation I can come up with for placing them where they did is they didn't want you to be so close to the Enter key. Although the most egregious oversight on their part was putting Fn + L-Shift as Ctrl+Alt+Del. When jumping around text using the arrow keys, shift and Ctrl liberally, it's very easy to accidentally open the task manager. For example, when selecting text using the arrow keys, you have to make sure to hit L-Shift before hitting Fn to use the arrow keys. Very annoying.

Your layout proposal for the Pure would definitely be an improvement; I really wish the Pure was programmable. The GH60 keyboard may be the one for me.

Maybe I can train myself to be fluent in multiple layouts wherever necessary. I can be a polyglot of keyboard layouts!

woody
Count Troller

30 Nov 2012, 20:36

shibbyllama wrote:For people with the HHKB, how do you like the arrow key positioning?
It is okayish if not used too often.
It also seems like it would be quite a stretch to reach Home/End.
It is.

Now go and get it to satisfy your own curiosity.

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