Retrobright: The Yellow Strikes Back

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

05 Jul 2013, 10:33

Halvar wrote:Retr0brite can exchange the O in the Br.O for H on the surface, which essentially "bleaches" the brown dye that has already formed. But it can't go deeper than the air could, and it can't do anything to the Br radicals that were built up deeper in the plastic over 20 years. These are still there (I'm aware that this is a simplified model, in fact they probably somehow react with the ABS or other stuff that's in there) and part of them continues to travel to the surface and continues to form new brown dye just by contact with the air. It doesn't need any UV light for this to happen any more at that point.
THANKS! I finally understand what is going on here :)

They don't need UV because they are already there, they just need time to surface again.

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Muirium
µ

05 Jul 2013, 11:29

Halvar's on a roll these days. Thanks for helping me figure out what I was trying and failing to say!

Can we award doctorates in keyboard science? Are we accredited? You basically just say you are until everyone accepts it as fact, right?

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bhtooefr

05 Jul 2013, 14:57

That said, I've heard of new-in-box vintage ABS cases and such yellowing, too - as in, the last time it saw light was 30 years ago, and it's been sealed in a box since then. Pull it out of the box, and it's already yellow.

So, that would indicate that heat is the problem, not light.

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Muirium
µ

05 Jul 2013, 15:04

As I see it: UV light creates yellowing, and heat distributes it.

I'd love to know what truly sealed in box ABS is like on first inspection, unexposed to daylight ever. I think it might still be pure. Depends if it was manufactured and boxed in daytime or night!

I'd also like to see some temperature trials on retrobrited ABS. Some caps in the fridge, some caps in a box indoors and some caps in a box in the garage for control. Good, white calibrated pictures at time = 0, 0.5 and 1 years please! We may well be able to measure differences by then.

The next experiment would be to re-retrobrite most of the caps from all three groups, and repeat the original experiment, now with a focus on the effectiveness of further retrobrite treatments.

Long experiment. But it's a long process. We'll never know just by hypothesising without hard data.

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Kurk

05 Jul 2013, 17:28

bhtooefr wrote:That said, I've heard of new-in-box vintage ABS cases and such yellowing, too - as in, the last time it saw light was 30 years ago, and it's been sealed in a box since then. Pull it out of the box, and it's already yellow.

So, that would indicate that heat is the problem, not light.
Oxygen by itself is also pretty aggressive and air contains 21% of it. Allowing for enough time there's probably some degradation of the plastic and of the flame retardants simply by being in contact with air. Heat speeds everything up.

Yeah, it sounds rather paradox. Here we add an oxygen source (hydrogen peroxide) to remove the yellowing and there you have oxygen causing yellowing. This whole degradation chemistry and bromine chemistry is freakingly complex.

Until we have figured everything out, it is advised to store your NIB goodies under an argon atmosphere at -20 °C. Oh yes, moisture-free, of course. And in the dark.
Last edited by Kurk on 05 Jul 2013, 22:39, edited 1 time in total.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

05 Jul 2013, 17:32

Kurrk wrote:Until we have figured everything out, it is advised to store your NIB goodies under an argon atmosphere at -20 °C. Oh yes, moisture-free, of course.
I was thinking vacuum container...

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Muirium
µ

06 Jul 2013, 12:26

Bet you initial exposure to strong UV light (i.e. daylight) was required in the first place.

A good hint is that Tezza's photos showed pattern memory. Previously yellowed areas re-yellow in proportion to their peak yellowing. A pristine sample, sealed in box, won't have yellowed in light by much at all (minimal exposure in the factory) and should tell the corresponding story.

But science demands experiment!

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mbodrov

23 Jun 2014, 08:23

Re-yellowing confiermed (again).

This CSK-1101P keyboard http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/costa ... t5759.html which I retrobrighted about a year ago is more or less back to its original yellowed condition.

It has been stored in complete darkness in a box at a steady 25 deg C for 1 year.

A Cherry keyboard, retrobrighted at the same time, shows no signs of the yellow returning.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

23 Jun 2014, 08:43

something is going on here, because the keys that I retrobrigthed more than one year ago are still as white as they could be. Maybe the components in the plastic? The quality/strength of UV source during the retr0bright session? Or the depth of the yellowing?

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002
Topre Enthusiast

23 Jun 2014, 11:49

matt3o wrote: Maybe the components in the plastic?
Personally I think it's this ^
ABS is a mixture right, so it's going to be different depending on who made it. I suppose the ones that relapse into yellowness quickly are ABS plastics with high levels of a bromine based compound?

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Broadmonkey
Fancy Rank

23 Jun 2014, 12:41

Isn't it the flame retardants in the plastic that causes the excessive yellowing? I think I read that somewhere, when I investigated a bit about retr0brighting.

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Hypersphere

09 Jul 2014, 17:54

Yellowing with age also occurs in the lens of the eye:
lensesAge.jpg
lensesAge.jpg (41.81 KiB) Viewed 7252 times
Image: http://people.brandeis.edu/~sekuler/Sen ... etOld.html

Proteins (polymers of amino acids) in the lens react with reducing sugars, such as fructose, via nonenzymatic glycosylation (glycation) to produce a condensation product that can rearrange and undergo further reactions to produce crosslinked proteins and light-absorbing structures, thus yielding a yellow or brown color. The same sort of reaction takes place in the browning of foods. The "browning" or "yellowing" of proteins in the human body is accelerated by diabetes and is thought to contribute to diseases of aging and/or diabetes, such as cataract, cardiovascular disease, and diabetic neuropathy.

I do not know how far this analogy holds between the yellowing/browning of plastics and proteins, but I doubt that aging or the complications of diabetes could be remedied by Retrobrite! Nevertheless, it could be that reactions similar to the Maillard reaction are taking place in certain synthetic polymers. If we could characterize and understand the mechanism(s) of these reactions, we might be more effective at preventing or reversing the yellowing of certain plastics. It is even conceivable that by understanding these reactions in plastics, we might indeed devise ways of reversing some of the effects of aging or diabetes on proteins in the human body, but using treatments less chemically aggressive than Retrobrite.

BTW, the yellowing of the lens has been documented to have an effect on the perception of color. Because yellow filters out blue light, artists tend to perceive less blue as they age, and this is reflected in their paintings. However, artists who have had their lenses removed for treatment of cataracts start painting with a renewed emphasis on the blue end of the spectrum.

andrewjoy

04 May 2015, 01:40

But if you keep retrobriteing it over and over wont you eventually use up all the bromide ?

Sigmoid

04 May 2015, 02:43

Well it's never pointless to look for better solutions, but I honestly don't see the problem. Flame retardant plastics yellow with age, this is a known fact of life. Plastics in general also become more brittle with age. I guess the final solution will be high quality 3d printing or some other way to replicate old cases with 100% accuracy out of brand new plastic (like the solution for cataracts is the implantation of new, artificial lenses).

So yea. You can't magically make 30 year old ABS into new ABS. Retrobright is a cleaning method. You take an old, crusty-with-bromide c64, and then blow everyone's mind with your flashy new-looking c64 at the scene parties. If you clean something only to put it away for years, it will likely get yellow again. Heck, NEW-new c64s will get yellow in 4 years. I remember seeing lots and lots of them with that crusty, shiny yellow look back in the day when they were still manufacturing them!
(Also I wonder why you'd painstakingly refurbish something only to put it away for 4 years (then again I never was a collector, I just like old technology).

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Muirium
µ

04 May 2015, 03:45

Exactly. It's not magic. ABS is as stable over the long term as a nice tasty croissant. Enjoy it while it's good!

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Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

04 May 2015, 05:00

4 years of non banana color seems like a good trade-off to me.

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

04 May 2015, 10:08

andrewjoy wrote: But if you keep retrobriteing it over and over wont you eventually use up all the bromide ?
Good question. I have yet to start retrobriting. I'm having my doubts though. I certainly won't be experimenting on my most beloved KB's. Marble efffects and the likes make me shiver. I can honestly understand people who don't mind 50 shades of yellowing. It is old hardware after all. Once again IBM did it better. 8-)

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Chyros

04 May 2015, 14:28

Some of this is quite painful to read as a chemist, but anyway :p .

The reason your cases are re-yellowing is because of exposure to oxygen, NOT to UV. Once yellowing of the case occurs, it changes the chemical composition of the case. The yellow stuff you see is no longer just ABS.

Normal, pure ABS doesn't absorb radiation in the UV range, but impurities in it might (such as fire retardants, or the catalyst used to make the polymer). When these are present, they accelerate degradation, which occurs through heat and radicals. At this stage the plastic can react with molecular oxygen (which is itself a radical species) which causes the formation of several decomposition products. Retrobrighting the material may take the colour away, but doesn't restore the integrity of the plastic; in fact, I suspect it would only weaken it. As such, the material is still vulnerable to attack by molecular oxygen. This is why successive washings with Retr0bright shouldn't prevent re-yellowing even if you do use up all the bromine.

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

04 May 2015, 15:11

good to get a scientists explanation of this process for a change, thanks. It is known by now that Retrobrighting is a limited solution, but obviously different plastics react differently to Retrobrighting. I have read of cases where the "yellowing" process is halted for years, and others where it returns within months. There are various unkown factors in Retrobrighting.

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Kurk

04 May 2015, 21:35

Owing to its high content of phenyl groups, ABS absorbs UV radiation with a wavelength of <300 nm very well (don't pin me down on the exact number). I think that UV radiation is a major contributor to ABS yellowing, quite possibly in combination with oxygen, flame retardants or other plastic additives.

It's hard to find any scientific articles on ABS yellowing that are free access :(

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

04 May 2015, 21:40

Topre wrote: The IBM Model M's case is PBT, so it's not just ABS plastic that suffers from yellowing. It's more of a plastic problem in general.
The IBM Model M has a PVC case, not a PBT case.

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

04 May 2015, 21:41

Kurk wrote: It's hard to find any scientific articles on ABS yellowing that are free access :(
Post citations to any journal articles that you might want to see and have trouble finding. Some of us have friends with journal access.

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Chyros

05 May 2015, 02:01

XMIT wrote:
Kurk wrote: It's hard to find any scientific articles on ABS yellowing that are free access :(
Post citations to any journal articles that you might want to see and have trouble finding. Some of us have friends with journal access.
I've got access to a fair few chemistry journals at the lab. I'll have a look around this week.

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Muirium
µ

05 May 2015, 03:18

If chemists can't settle on fixing ABS's horrible yellowing, then WHAT IS THE POINT OF CHEMISTRY!!

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Mal-2

05 May 2015, 05:18

Muirium wrote: If chemists can't settle on fixing ABS's horrible yellowing, then WHAT IS THE POINT OF CHEMISTRY!!
Maybe this is the real reason so many cheap keyboards are black rather than cream or white or light gray. You can't see yellowing in black plastic, and the pad printing used on them isn't going to yellow either — be stained by fingers perhaps, but not suffer the bromine reaction. Then all they have to worry about is the pad printing wearing off too quickly.

andrewjoy

05 May 2015, 13:37

you cannot notice it but you can see the difference when you compare them. for example remove a label from a cheap black/silver laptop after a few years you will notice the difference even if its not worn at all.

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Muirium
µ

05 May 2015, 15:17

Fashion is the reason beige turned to black around 2000. (Wasn't it Dell?) Cheap manufacturers would rather your gear turned to crap after a year or two, because the only money is when you replace it. Mushy domes, anyone?

andrewjoy

05 May 2015, 15:24

i think it was IBM was it not ? they went all black with blue logo ( something lenovo sticks to to this day ).

I think it has its place , just not on my keyboard ! I prefer dark lettering on lighter caps. i always liked SGI they always wen mental with the colour and design of there stuff.

mr_a500

05 May 2015, 16:22

I hate beige. Most keyboards were black before the hideous 15-year "beigening" that started around 1984. When I see beige, I think "modern". True "vintage colours" are black, white, brown and blue.

I now blame HP for the origins of "beigepocalypse". HP's first terminals in 1975 (before that, they used Beehive terminals) had the two tone - beige and dark beige scheme. Wozniak worked at HP. The Apple II case then had the same horrible colour scheme. Though IBM had light beige cases, keycap colours were originally blue and black, then white and dark grey. When the PC was released in 1981, then they went beige two tone. By the mid-80's, everybody was copying IBM. Apple was horrible beige long before IBM and HP a few years before that.

Of course, this is just the ravings of an anti-beige maniac, unprovable in a court of law.

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Muirium
µ

05 May 2015, 16:33

Aye, beige wasn't for me either. I was glad to see it go.

You could well be right Andy. When I could first afford a laptop in 1997, I was pleasantly surprised to see they were all black or charcoal colours. (Much like Apple's original 1991 PowerBooks, not that I knew at the time.) I'd had enough beige and was pleased to welcome our new dark plastic overlords.

Didn't last long though. Every computer I've had since 2003 was aluminium shelled, and a Mac. Fashion!

My keyboards though: I like them white. Beige if necessary, IBM, but better Topre white.

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