Help with 122-key Model F ANSI mod

[1391401]

I'm finishing an ANSI mod on a 122 key Model F but I need insert stabilizer sleeves for the empty barrels as the Model M inserts do not fit. Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.

[Muirium]

There are two different kind of inserts, I've found. Centred ones and slightly off-centre. I don't know what the rules are, but I do know that centred hole ones work nicely on my Kishsaver. A 60% Model F. They are how I made it ANSI/HHKB. And I'm one short… because that wire stabilised right Shift doesn't feel as good as the Model M left Shift I installed!

[1391401]

Thank you. I ended up sanding down the sides of my Unicomp inserts to make them fit.

[quantalume]

Centered is for horizontal multiple-width keys, and offset is for vertical.

[Muirium]

Cool, I thought that might be it. What's a good source for more of them? I'm guessing Unicomp sells packs, like they do springs and hammers.

[quantalume]

Yep, and they are pretty cheap as I recall. I can post you one if you like.

[Muirium]

Thanks! I'll rummage through my IBM stuff to make sure I need it first.

[vivalarevolución]

Centered is for horizontal multiple-width keys, and offset is for vertical.

Was about to say this.

Unicomp does sell them, and they recently created a listing for them. In the recent past, you had to send them an email to special order them and they would send them to you.

http://pckeyboard.com/page/Misc/insert

[1391401]

Thanks. I just ordered several.

[Muirium]

Yep, and they are pretty cheap as I recall. I can post you one if you like.

Rummaging complete. I freed up one by going back to ISO on my 122 key, so my Kishsaver has matching legend Shift keys now. But I could always use a spare if you're spare it!

[Hypersphere]

I've ordered some from Unicomp as well -- both the black verticals and the white horizontals. Will these work in an F-122 without modifying them?

[Muirium]

Should do. I used some from my 122 key Model M in my Model F Kishsaver. Fortunately, IBM kept the geometry the same.

[Hypersphere]

Should do. I used some from my 122 key Model M in my Model F Kishsaver. Fortunately, IBM kept the geometry the same.

Good. I am going to try to gather all the parts and tools needed for both the mechanical and electronic aspects of restoration/modification before starting to dismantle my F-122.

One thing I noticed about the F-122 is that the spacebar seems noisier than the spacebars on my other Model F keyboards (AT and XT), or perhaps it is just a different quality of noise (e.g., different frequency spectrum). In any event, are there simple ways of quasi-silencing F-122 spacebars? I haven't analyzed the motion of the spacebar in use to see if there are parts that "hit bottom", for example.

[Muirium]

Think stabs. My Kishsaver sounds a good bit better with Model M caps on it instead of the wire-stabilised originals. Feels a bit better, too. The only wire stabilised key remaining is the space bar, which I've still got to fix as one of the stab mounts is broken and re-crafting a new one takes skill and patience. If only IBM had got around to using inserts on space bars too! And if only 7 units weren't too long for that to be feasible…

[Hypersphere]

Think stabs. My Kishsaver sounds a good bit better with Model M caps on it instead of the wire-stabilised originals. Feels a bit better, too. The only wire stabilised key remaining is the space bar, which I've still got to fix as one of the stab mounts is broken and re-crafting a new one takes skill and patience. If only IBM had got around to using inserts on space bars too! And if only 7 units weren't too long for that to be feasible…

It might be nice if we could somehow graft a Topre spacebar to our Model F keyboards. Or perhaps grab some of those Brother discrete BS switches to transplant where needed. However, come to think of it, what about the feasibility of using peg and barrel-insert stabilizers? What is the maximum distance for feasible stabilization between a BS switch and stabilizer?

Getting back to the F-122 in question, the spacebar on it seems louder than the longer spacebars on my AT and XT or the spacebar on my SSK, which is the same length as that on the F-122. Could it be a matter of adjusting the stabilizer wire on the F-122? Alternatively, (hopelessly naive question coming up!) is there anyplace on a F-122 spacebar where something like a Cherry-type O-ring or soft landing pad could help? (Just trying to take the edge off, not striving to convert the Model F into an entirely new species).

[Muirium]

I'm pretty sure the noise comes from the wire running in its tracks, rather than anything striking something solid. Stab noise is a different kind from generic clack.

[Hypersphere]

I'm pretty sure the noise comes from the wire running in its tracks, rather than anything striking something solid. Stab noise is a different kind from generic clack.

Oddly enough, this sounds more like generic clack (genclack, perhaps?). When I think stab noise, I think of a rattle rather than a clack, but I could very well be misguided in my thinking and perceptions.

[Muirium]

Then to objectivity! Use a microphone, make a recording, and see if it sounds like the well behaved space bar on this:

IBM Model M SSK:

Or the loud one on my half-stabilised Kishsaver:

IBM Model F Kishsaver

I made those recordings before I fixed up this keyboard. Now I'm more confident at typing on the Kishsaver, especially without the wire stabilised right Shift and Backspace, so I sound more like when I'm on my SSK. The space bar is still a problem, though.

If only IBMs had Cherry stabs…

Ducky Shine 3 with MX reds.

[quantalume]

The space bar stabilizer wire in the F-122 is thinner than the M (the XT and AT use an altogether different stabilizer design), so that may be why it rattles more. That or the fact that the top plate is metal. It never bothered me, but your best bet may be a little lithium grease. You could also try putting some plastic wrap (of the kitchen variety) over the wire. Just a single longitudinal fold should do it.

[Hypersphere]

Thanks for the various tips about the F-122 spacebar. I will literally look into it when I get around to doing the modifications on my F-122.

[1391401]

I noticed the space bar on my F-122's sounded louder / noisier than the ones on my AT / XT F's as well, which initially lead me to adjust the wire stabilizer. That helped to some extent. Granted, it's still there, but it tightened up the sound a bit. I don't think there's any way to fully eliminate it, though. Unlike the AT F, the wire stabilizer can be adjusted without disassembling the keyboard.

[Hypersphere]

It appears that the spacebar and stabilizer on a Model M is the same as on an F-122, except that on the F-122, the stabilizer wire is thinner. It is possible to install a Model M spacebar on an F-122 by modifying the stabilizer wire, as documented in the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA8IpiIgwxo
Moreover, as fohat.digs has shown, it is possible to remove the stabilizer clips and replace them with strips of metal bent to accommodate a Model M spacebar and stabilizer. The new clips can be held in place with epoxy.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48847.0

[1391401]

I'd be averse to try it unless I had an F-122 whose bracket(s) was/were broken. I'd also prefer to steal brackets from an old, disheveled Model M (which shouldn't be hard to come by on eBay) rather than make new ones(a la fohat).

Have you tried taking the space bar off of your F-122 and sticking it on a Model M to see if it induces the same noise?

[Muirium]

The brackets are transplantable?

Here's my Kishsaver's one and only broken stab mount:

I'm loathe to get out glue to trial and error my way to a fix like Fohat did. If I can swap a ready made one right on in, I'd much prefer to!

[Hypersphere]

I'd be averse to try it unless I had an F-122 whose bracket(s) was/were broken. I'd also prefer to steal brackets from an old, disheveled Model M (which shouldn't be hard to come by on eBay) rather than make new ones(a la fohat).

Have you tried taking the space bar off of your F-122 and sticking it on a Model M to see if it induces the same noise?

Thanks for the excellent advice. Transplanting brackets from a donor M does sound like a good idea, provided the brackets can be removed without breaking them.

I was also wondering if it would be possible to file out the F-122 brackets so that they could accommodate the thicker wire from a Model M? I have not yet looked at the F-122 brackets; they might already be too thin, and it would be difficult or impossible to file them out without removing them.

No, I have not tried putting the F-122 spacebar on a Model M. This is now on my list of experiments!

[Hypersphere]

The brackets are transplantable?

Here's my Kishsaver's one and only broken stab mount:

Spoiler:

I'm loathe to get out glue to trial and error my way to a fix like Fohat did. If I can swap a ready made one right on in, I'd much prefer to!

Looks like a perfect situation for a 3D printer!

[1391401]

The brackets are transplantable?

They're not readily interchangeable, no. However, if you dremel them out of an old Model M or F and epoxy them over the (dremeled out and ground down) brackets of (your keyboard here), I don't see why that wouldn't work. Not the most convenient solution, I know, but that would likely yield the most effective result.

[Hypersphere]

Mu, thanks for the recordings. I've added "microphone" to my list of gadgets to add to my system. I also need to get a camera; as it is, I have to borrow one whenever I want to photograph something.

I have taken a closer look at the spacebar and its supports on my SSK and compared this with the F-122 counterparts. as quantalume pointed out, the stabilizer wire in the M is thicker than the one in the F. In addition, the bracket on the M is flanked by two little ramps, so that the wire sits in the bracket similarly to sliding a pencil (stabilizer wire) over your index and ring fingers (ramps) with the middle finger (bracket) resting on top of the pencil. In contrast, the Model F does not have the little ramps on each side of the bracket.

[Muirium]

Wcass made me a wire for using Model M space bars in Model Fs. It has variable thickness so achieve this. So it's not too great a surprise to hear the brackets aren't the same. I'm going to have to get creative…

[Hypersphere]

Wcass made me a wire for using Model M space bars in Model Fs. It has variable thickness so achieve this. So it's not too great a surprise to hear the brackets aren't the same. I'm going to have to get creative…

Thanks for the explanation. I wonder if wcass is the fellow who made the video on making a dual-thickness wire for transplanting a Model M spacebar into a Model F board? This consists of placing metal tubing on part of the wire and bending it into shape using a special jig.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA8IpiIgwxo