Why do you prefer the ANSI enter? Why the ISO enter?

[gioele]

Personally I prefer the ISO enter because I find it easier to reach regardless of the position in which my fingers are.

[Laser]

I prefer the ANSI enter, because - i find its size/location sufficiently large not to hit other key, i like the backslash/pipe placement in this case, and i like a large left shift. (i like = i'm very used to)

[davkol]

I prefer ANSI for three reasons:

• It's easier to reach from the home position with short pinkies.
• There are more replacement keycaps. (BTW don't forget about inconsistent backslash placement on keyboards with a big-ass Enter.)
• It's super simple to stabilize—I've experienced wiggly ISO Enter or way too stiff big-ass Enter many times.

That being said, I don't really care anymore, unless I'm confronted with some obscurity like Apple's extremely narrow ISO on their modern aluminium keyboards. Well, I don't really care, because my primary keyboards are ErgoDox, TypeMatrix 2030 and a matrix Access-IS keypad.

[Halvar]

Like QWERTY design itself, I think it's first and foremost a matter of what people are used to.

[Muirium]

True. One difference though is that Qwerty is entirely arbitrary, while ANSI is symmetric with the left side of the keyboard. I like this a lot! And I grew up on ISO.

I bet there are more ANSI fans in ISO regions here than vice versa. Tall enter really does take some getting used to, being uniquely shaped compared to all other keys. It looked better back when it was not quite so alone…



ISO's extra key is worthwhile, though. But it comes from shortening left Shift. All that malarkey on the right of the keyboard is net neutral!

[Grond]

The wear on my Iso enter proves that I always hit it right in the middle, so I guess I'd have some problems adapting to a Ansi enter. I think Ansi looks better beacuse of symmetry, yet I'm so used to Iso I don't think I'll ever switch to Ansi anyway.

[Muirium]

I've moved around a bit over where I hit Enter over the years. Used to hit it right in the middle (between rows) where you did, but then when I got this little guy…



Well that's when I began to learn to hate ISO Enter. I had to move to the top, where Apple has a whole frickin' unit for you to hit. That PowerBook was what led me to even be aware of the difference between ISO and ANSI: I thought only legends differed around the world before that.

Real ISO keyboards aren't a problem at all for me. But I have gotten into the habit of hitting Enter on the bottom right now, where both ANSI and ISO overlap, so I don't have to think about which keyboard I'm on. No pinkie Enter for me, obviously. I fly all over the place above my keyboard, which is what enables these migrations and a lot of my broad tastes in boards, generally.

[Grond]

That PowerBook 12 still looks cool nonetheless.

[ne0phyte]

I prefer the ANSI enter because that way I can put backspace on backslash/pipe right above enter which is much more comfy to press than the usual backspace key.

[Muirium]

Correct. The HHKB is the next step in the evolution of ANSI. I use whatever HHKB features I can steal! But the extra long 2.75u right Shift on both ANSI and ISO standard keyboards is a constant obstacle to doing that right.

And yes, I do still like my little PowerBook. My first Mac, and still runs fine today. Albeit as a trip back in time…

[Findecanor]

Bigger Return key is easier to hit. There was a study that showed that there were fewer errors with the big-ass Return keys. I'd think the Selectric's key would be just as good - as close to the middle as ANSI and larger than ISO Enter.

I think that after the 1u wide Apple "ISO" key, the smaller backwards-L keys are the worst: not wide enough on the vertical, and they are not stabilised properly - a stabiliser bar only on the vertical, with a sliding post or nothing at all on the left end of the horizontal part.

ISO's extra key is worthwhile, though. But it comes from shortening left Shift.

Yeah, but I think a lot of people are typing with a shifted ZXCV row anyway, with the ring finger on Z instead of X.

Well that's when I began to learn to hate ISO Enter. I had to move to the top, where Apple has a whole frickin' unit for you to hit.

Don't hate ISO Return! Hate Apple for being ANSI-centric when they designed their keyboards, with ISO Return an afterthought.

That PowerBook 12 still looks cool nonetheless.

It doesn't look so cool when the silver paint on the keys has worn off in the middle of the keys.

I prefer the ANSI enter because that way I can put backspace on backslash/pipe right above enter which is much more comfy to press than the usual backspace key.

I'd much rather have a split Space bar.

[Halvar]

ANSI? Symmetrical? It isn't if modifier colors are correct.

I prefer the ANSI enter because that way I can put backspace on backslash/pipe right above enter which is much more comfy to press than the usual backspace key.

My main quibble with ANSI is indeed that large \| key. This would be a nice place to put e.g. Delete/RubOut (or, as you said, backspace) or any other useful function key, but a 1.5u alpha key with rarely used special characters?

BTW, regarding ISO and Bigass enter, I will from now on spread an urban legend that I just made up, claiming that this originally were two separate single row keys for CR and LF, and at some point in history they were joined together to form a single CRLF key.

[Muirium]

Actually, I think I have seen CR and LF keys on a few of HaTaa's boards. (Or maybe someone else's, anyway, they were antiquities.) None of the names come to mind for a search just now, though. So here's my Honeywell, with just one, instead:



Not quite where you want it! But these were meaningful things, back in the day. Before DOS/Windows fused the two, which is itself a fading oddity not shared with other platforms…

[Kurk]

I prefer ANSI because:

1) ANSI enter is more comfortable
Less travel needed for the pinky. For hitting ISO enter you even have to move your whole wrist.

2) Left ISO Shift is too short
I prefer to be able to hit LShift by just slightly shifting my pink. Yes, the right shift key is broken in that respect on both ANSI and ISO.

[quantalume]

I've been back and forth. I originally learned to program on IBM terminals, which have an ISO-like layout. Later, I switched to ANSI when IBM introduced the "enhanced" keyboard for the PC and everyone in the US was forced to switch to ANSI. Recently, I've switched back to ISO and now prefer it. I like it even better with a short right shift and an extra Fn key to the right of it.

Those who don't like ISO's short left shift, perform the following experiment with an ISO keyboard. Place your fingers on the home row keys. Without moving the other fingers, move the right pinky to the right shift. Now move the left pinky to the row below the home row and separated the same distance from the rest of the fingers as the right pinky. Which key is it on?

Does anyone know how ANSI became a standard and when? Did ANSI adopt IBM's layout, or was it the other way around?

[Findecanor]

I find it likely that the ANSI Return key came about like staggered QWERTY did, by cutting corners when engineering keyboards a long time ago, and then stuck by convention. On many vintage keyboards from the '70s and '80s, the Return key is at most 1.75 wide and the only stabilised key is the space bar.

[Hypersphere]

Prefer ANSI. Short reach on home row. In addition, I like to put Backspace directly above Return.

[Compgeke]

I prefer ANSI but I can type on ISO. I don't use the right shift at all and having a shortened left shift is a bit annoying for me as I hit the key dead-center and that's roughly where the edge is on an ISO board. I also don't find that I need an extra key as American English doesn't tend to have any special characters in it.

[Muirium]

As expected, ISO had the early lead, but as America catches up… not any more!

Straight zero for Big Ass Enter: deserved!

[DerpyDash_xAD]

Most of ansi is dumb but the space between the enter and backspace is perfect.

[Findecanor]

If you look at typewriters and vintage computer keyboards, there is often either a Selectric-style rectangular, or even trapezoid Enter/Return key three keys right from L, or ... a vertical Enter key one step down from ISO.
The latter type is sometimes L-shaped rotated 180°: vertical key, big area, three keys right from L and allows Backspace or Back-Tab to be in-between Enter/Return and the top row.
The IBM 327x beam-spring keyboards have vertical Return keys one step down from ISO, but an additional key next to Enter, like ISO.

[IvanIvanovich]

I favor ANSI some, but anymore I really don't give a shit if it's ANSI, ISO/JIS... 1 unit... numpad style vertical enter, whatever as long as it's not a bigass. Bigass should be destroyed forever! Might as well have a 4x4 unit enter, or use a footpedal or something if you have troubles with ANSI or ISO.
However, I really really detest the 1.25 left shift on ISO boards. JIS got it better with the extra key on that row on the other side taking the space from the much larger right shift instead and having all the punctuation in the same area.

[bhtooefr]

Mechanically and aesthetically, the ISO enter is an awkward solution. A non-rectangular key is just an aesthetically questionable decision, and yes, I know, IBM typewriters started it, as well as the big-ass Enter. And, vertical keys are harder to stabilize properly, from what I've seen. (I'm looking at you, 122 F, with a frictiony-as-all-hell ISO enter.) I'm well aware that it evolved pretty naturally from the keys that actual typewriters had, but it's rather telling that the Selectric II went big-ass when they needed to add a key for express backspace (although a particularly narrow form of it), and the Selectric III went ANSI for the 92-character keyboard (I have no idea why they stayed with ISO for the 96-character keyboard, however. Both right and left shift got split to add keys, there, they could've used what became ANSI enter easily).

Big-ass enter is the worst of both words - it needs mechanical stabilization in two directions, and it invariably confuses everyone - the backslash has to go somewhere. It makes sense in the context of the Selectric II, where they removed a chunk of the enter key to make it, but nowhere else. (And, I know, the DisplayWriter and the PC/AT keyboards copied that aspect, but hey...)

Now, ANSI lets you do something else, that the Apple examples have hinted at - it allows you to make a keyboard as narrow as 14.5 U without making partial-unit keys, as a full layout. ISO needs 14.75 U to do that (Apple just went with partial-unit keys). I'll note that this isn't relevant to OADG-compliant JIS layouts, because they need the full 15 U due to a truncated backspace, and Apple's attempts to shove a JIS layout into 14.5 U are horrible from what I've seen. Luckily, I don't actually give a damn about JIS, so...

ANSI enter also brings the enter key closer to the home row, which likely improves speed. It brings [, ], and \ into one group that mirrors <, >, and / - perfect for media control or volume control under a Fn layer, which would be more awkward with an ISO layout. It has a certain aesthetic symmetry, especially in a 14.5 U layout, as evidenced by ye olde M0110 (the most symmetrical of them):


(matt3o's pic)

And, the critical thing that Muirium pointed out... ISO's extra key has nothing to do with its enter key! It's out of left shift, and therefore is completely compatible with ANSI enter. As I mentioned, OADG layouts can't be done at 14.5 U, so there's less benefit to ANSI enter in those applications (there's still some, though), but in ISO applications it absolutely makes sense.

[Quardah]

Imo ANSI enter key is the best, for only the ANSI layout looks better since it doesn't have any "weird shape" keys. It's pretty symetrical therefore it calms my OCD versus an ISO layout or J-Shape "Big Ass" enter Layout. Also, i find it optimal; when i type fast, i hit the farside keys (shift, backspace, CTRL, you get the point) with my pinkies so it's best to have some keys fitting the rows so i know what they are hitting for sure.

[Wiper]

I stick by my preference for ISO here, but the enter is mostly incidental to it - you could have almost as good a layout with the ANSI enter. The main advantage is the number of keys, and the UK placement of symbols, that makes me prefer ISO: the important interjection keys of hash, tilde, at and backslash all within immediate pinky reach is far more comfortable than allocating them to the number row, while the obscure backtick / pipe / not key is appropriately placed out of the way.

The one genuine advantage ISO enter has is forcing the backslash to not be isolated to the doom of the upper-right corner, far too far out of the way for such a commonly-used symbol. Switching to ANSI automatically relegates a key to that position, and with the only reasonably uncommon symbol key already banished to the top-left, there's no way to avoid losing something useful.

[Uncleleech]

I love ISO because of the placement of the keys. I really don't like my @ to be on 2 because it means that when I come to use quotes I have to move my hands out of the way.

I can see the benefits of an ANSI keyboard but I don't think that the enter key is right. I like the idea of having the backslash there though.

[Eszett]

I agree with bhtooefr. I think ISO-return is aesthetically awkward, eats up too much space when you consider that you don’t press it very frequently (in comparision to space or shift). And while ISO-return came out too huge, they made left (I wrote by mistake “right”) shift too tiny. Let’s call the ISO layout a botch.

[scottc]

I like the shortened left shirt (I assume you mean /left/ shift) though generally preferring ANSI. I'd like a mixture of ANSI and ISO in that regard. I also think that right shift is too long, and like it most in the HHKB style - shortened by 1U, with a function key added.

[davkol]

I love ISO because of the placement of the keys. I really don't like my @ to be on 2 because it means that when I come to use quotes I have to move my hands out of the way.

I don't think it has anything to do with ANSI/ISO, because ISO/IEC 9995 allows shuffling symbols. US QWERTY can be used on an ISO-compliant keyboard without interefering with the standard.

[Muirium]

And Apple merrily uses ANSI-US style positioning even on its ISO-UK keyboards…



My ideal would be a cross between ANSI and JIS. Love those extra mods and the little space bar in Japan, but I still don't like the ISO inspired return.