happy hacking keyboard jpn layout vs normal laout

[richie]

Have a brother working in Japan so considering having him send me a HH keyboard. Just wondering if anyone has experience with the JPN layout ...
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B001 ... d_i=489986

guess I'm interested in this version because of the direction keys, the only down side I see is that small space bar, and the fact there's no full key cap set for this version.

Anyone have more to add for this version?

[ripster]

The space bar I found unusable when I tried it.

It's big enough on the Realforce JIS layout.

I was going to buy it for the arrow keys but am patiently waiting for the HHKB3.

Meanwhile in Japan....

Here is a technical symposium on DIP switches

[db_Iodine]

I've always been a fan of the JP layout space key, since I think the space on ansi and iso layout take way too much space (especially on my 86UB). The HHKB with JP layout is a different story however. I think I could deal with the space bar seen on most JP keyboards, but with HHKB JP the space bar seems like it's unusable with the right thumb, or requires some reaching. It would be fun to actually get to try one of those to really determine if it is unusable or not.

[daedalus]

The arrow key layer on the standard HHKB is much better than you'd think. In some ways, it is superior to a regular keyboard because you don't have to take your hand off the home row.

[Julle]

Agreed. Even though I don't own a HHKB, I always use a HHKB/Vim style cursor key arrangement. Using normal cursor keys feels very unnatural, mostly due to the awkward hand position.

[sordna]

I just noticed something very interesting; the keys are less staggered on the HHKB JP than on the one with the US layout! In particular, the JP's left Shift is visibly shorter. As a result, the M key is almost right below the J key (almost like a matrix keyboard), in contrast to the typical layout which has the M key right in the middle between the J and K keys. For users of non-staggered keyboards (Typeatrix/Kinesis/Maltron) this should be a good thing!
Not only that, the JP Professional has arrow keys!

JP:


US:

[webwit]

Ripster states for the 1000th time the HHKB "doesn't have cursor keys", and you guys are actually replying to the boring repetition troll?

I don't take the HHKB Japan seriously. Eiiti Wada was not involved. This comes from pfu marketing/product development, trying to capitalize on the HHKB name. But can they show us the academic research like Wada did, where there's research, reason and logic behind every key layout choice? I consider it a (Japanese) mini keyboard with Topre's, but not a HHKB. It just rides that label.

[webwit]

The choices for the HHKB JP layout seem to have been dictated for a large part by what happens if you fill out the space with single width key caps. It's not an intelligent design. The fact the Z row has been shifted for this is very bad. Sure, if all rows are not staggered, it's interesting. If one row is shifted to make place for a key, it's a defect and will fuck up muscle memory. For a simple test consider this example: on a HHKB Pro 2, place you fingers on the homerow, move your left pinky down. It ends up exactly on Alt. The whole layout is smart like that. Do it on a HHKB JP, and your pinky ends up on the edge of a key. It's just like all other mini keyboards. Not so smart.

[daedalus]

Ripster states for the 1000th time the HHKB "doesn't have cursor keys", and you guys are actually replying to the boring repetition troll?

I was talking to the OP. I dont think I even read Ripster's post...

For a simple test consider this example: on a HHKB Pro 2, place you fingers on the homerow, move your left pinky down. It ends up exactly on Alt. The whole layout is smart like that.

Yeah, originally I swapped Super and Alt to approximate a standard layout. Then I turned that off for use with a Mac, then when I used it with a regular computer I just stuck to it.

[7bit]

The choices for the HHKB JP layout seem to have been dictated for a large part by what happens if you fill out the space with single width key caps. It's not an intelligent design. The fact the Z row has been shifted for this is very bad. Sure, if all rows are not staggered, it's interesting. If one row is shifted to make place for a key, it's a defect and will fuck up muscle memory. For a simple test consider this example: on a HHKB Pro 2, place you fingers on the homerow, move your left pinky down. It ends up exactly on Alt. The whole layout is smart like that. Do it on a HHKB JP, and your pinky ends up on the edge of a key. It's just like all other mini keyboards. Not so smart.

I disaggree with that. The design is very inteligent. Nobody needs such a large space bar. The only key which is done wrong is the J-shape Return. Also: The more potential modifier keys the better, especially on such a reduced size!

The odd stagering is with the 'normal' keyboards, where it is 1/2 then 1/4, 1/4 and 1/2 again.

[webwit]

That's a different thing. I also like the extra modifiers on Japanese keyboards, but it's an aspect of the Japanese layout, so there's nothing smart about a HHKB JP sporting those keys, it's the point of the exercise. But if you move fingers down from the homerow, where do they land? Exactly on a key or somewhere else? The HHKB JP doesn't do it right, it's weird. And the reason is that the position is dictated by the single space key width and the amount of keys required on a limited row space. It's drawing board design, I've seen it many times. Design a keyboard layout on a drawing board, fill out the spaces, make it look symmetrical.. but don't do any deep usability research. In that way it is the opposite of the original HHKB.

[daedalus]

There should be an additional Fn key on the bottom left hand corner, that's about it. Maybe a right Ctrl too?

[webwit]

I think they failed in the way the put in the cursor keys, which led to many other deficiencies.

If you look at the original HHKB, if you put your right pinky on the Fn key, your index and middle finger are placed over the left and right arrow of the second layer, and the whole second layer can be operated from there. Or, you can change one of the left modifiers next to the space bar to a Fn key, and use your left pinky or thumb, and operate the second layer while remaining on the home row.

With the HHKB JP, most of this is lost. The first method works for some keys like Page up and Down, others become weird. Try Fn+BS. The Fn key on the far left is a joke. You have to move your whole hand from the home row, and can't do anything but press that Fn with it.

Furthermore, the right shift is not very usable now (it's an important key!), while, as a result of these two single spaced keys to the far right, the whole row is wrongly aligned.

Really, what a mess.

[lal]

BTW, I've always wondered how you type Ctrl-Q/Z with Ctrl in the CapsLock position? Normally Q and Z are operated by the left pinky, but here it's already busy pressing Ctrl...

[daedalus]

Pinkie on Ctrl, ringfinger for the Q or Z.

[ripster]

That HHKB JP key staggering thing IS non-standard.




Maybe that's the other reason I didn't like it trying it in Akihabara.

[7bit]

That HHKB JP key staggering thing IS non-standard.

Maybe that's the other reason I didn't like it trying it in Akihabara.

The only things I don't like about it are:
- J-shape return
- no replacement key caps
- Fn key
- price

[webwit]

There should be an additional Fn key on the bottom left hand corner, that's about it. Maybe a right Ctrl too?

hhkb3.jpg (44.35 KiB) Viewed 17433 times

[sordna]

The arrow key layer on the standard HHKB is much better than you'd think. In some ways, it is superior to a regular keyboard because you don't have to take your hand off the home row.

If they put the arrows under the IJKL keys it would be much better. Where the HHKB has the arrows, under the right pinkie, and having to jump a whole row to get from Up to Down is a poor choice to me. They put far less useful keys under the home row fingers.

The mini-guru concept board has more sensible key placements in my view:
http://www.guru-board.com/english/layout_en