New to mechanicals, help me find MY keyboard
-
- DT Pro Member: -
Hi guys... I'm a writer/illustrator with recurring RSI problems and some suggested me to switch to a mechanical keyboard to alleviate the discomfort. So I've been doing some reading, and I wonder whether you can help me.
My situation:
I work on a PC with Win8 and occasionally on iOs devices (I'm typing this on my iphone with an Apple wireless)
I write and paint illustrations (I use a huge 24HD Touch wacom cintiq) so I need a keyboard that I can put on my knees when the cintiq is set to horizontal position; so it has to be wireless.
My desk is cluttered so I want a tenkeyless;
I write in English and in my native language, Italian, so I need those annoying ò,à,è,é, ì and ù characters. I know you can type them with an US keyboard as well, but a word in three uses them in Italian, so it would be annoying to use an US layout.
I would like a clicky tactile and auditory feedback, I work alone so noise is not an issue
Cost is (relatively) not an issue if I'm buying a keyboard that will last and alleviate my RSI.
I'm not a touch-typist but I would like to learn, or at least try to.
I don't use computers to game at all, so I'm looking for a strictly typing machine.
I am old enough to remember when the ZX Spectrum was new and I have typed on mechanical and electric typewriters.
So if you could suggest an available model, with the idea that I'll be switching some keys to turn it into an Italian layout keyboard, and I very much prefer a wireless one, and want a clicky one, that works in windows, and can occasionally be used to type on ipads and iphones (although this is not very important).... you'd have my gratitude.
(As far as I know, I need to get modding one because a product like I described does not exist. I've seen one that is very close but is out of stock).
My situation:
I work on a PC with Win8 and occasionally on iOs devices (I'm typing this on my iphone with an Apple wireless)
I write and paint illustrations (I use a huge 24HD Touch wacom cintiq) so I need a keyboard that I can put on my knees when the cintiq is set to horizontal position; so it has to be wireless.
My desk is cluttered so I want a tenkeyless;
I write in English and in my native language, Italian, so I need those annoying ò,à,è,é, ì and ù characters. I know you can type them with an US keyboard as well, but a word in three uses them in Italian, so it would be annoying to use an US layout.
I would like a clicky tactile and auditory feedback, I work alone so noise is not an issue
Cost is (relatively) not an issue if I'm buying a keyboard that will last and alleviate my RSI.
I'm not a touch-typist but I would like to learn, or at least try to.
I don't use computers to game at all, so I'm looking for a strictly typing machine.
I am old enough to remember when the ZX Spectrum was new and I have typed on mechanical and electric typewriters.
So if you could suggest an available model, with the idea that I'll be switching some keys to turn it into an Italian layout keyboard, and I very much prefer a wireless one, and want a clicky one, that works in windows, and can occasionally be used to type on ipads and iphones (although this is not very important).... you'd have my gratitude.
(As far as I know, I need to get modding one because a product like I described does not exist. I've seen one that is very close but is out of stock).
-
- DT Pro Member: -
The model I am mentioning above was the KBTalking which has been out of stock since 2013.
- crunch
- Location: Sweden
- Main keyboard: Cherry G80-1800, Quickfire Rapid
- Main mouse: Logitech MX518
- Favorite switch: Cherry MX
- DT Pro Member: -
Off the top of my head you got these keyboards. No italian layout what I know off, but nordic or german is pretty close.
http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/mati ... german.asp
http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/germ ... yboard.asp
or maybe this.
http://www.rapoo.com/ProductShow.aspx?P ... l3PJuVw%3D
http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/mati ... german.asp
http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/germ ... yboard.asp
or maybe this.
http://www.rapoo.com/ProductShow.aspx?P ... l3PJuVw%3D
-
- DT Pro Member: -
Thanks. the German layout is quite different and i wonder which of the above are easier to switch. I am assuming it is possible to change keycaps but I have no idea how that is done. I must find a store that will do that for me.
- kbdfr
- The Tiproman
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID-QM-128A + two Tipro matrix modules
- Main mouse: Contour Rollermouse Pro
- Favorite switch: Cherry black
- DT Pro Member: 0010
Welcome on boardganeshagames wrote: ↑[…] My desk is cluttered […]
[…] I don't use computers to game at all, so I'm looking for a strictly typing machine.
I am old enough to remember when the ZX Spectrum was new and I have typed on mechanical and electric typewriters. […]
I think it's not a matter of the equipment you use, but much more of how your desk is organised. Taking your keyboard on your knees when using your graphic tablet is about the worst solution I can think of, and it surely doesn't help relax your shoulder muscles when sitting and drawing.
I would suggest using a drawer for your keyboard so you can push it under the desk when not in use. Even if as a professional typist I use my keyboard all the time and never need to take it away, I have added such a (self-constructed) lower level to my desk, which puts my keyboard just above the same height as if it were on my lap (which to me is the best typing position because my forearms are not raised but rather horizontal or even slightly lowered).
I bet this would help alleviate your RSI problems - even if sticking to a crappy keyboard
-
- DT Pro Member: -
Thank you for the suggestion. I do not actually type with a keyboard on my knees, i am drawing on my cintiq with its pen. The keyboard is used only to type in a filename when I save a file or, occasionally, for a quick copy and paste. But there are long periods where I do not draw at all and I write books. In those cases my cintiq stays in an upright position and is just used as a monitor and My keyboard is on the desk. I use a microsoft arc keyboard which never gave me a problem but I would prefer something with deeper keys for long typing sessions.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Filco Minila Air. Get the MX red version. Your fingers will thank you, and MX reds are plenty loud enough to satisfy the natural desire for clackity clack. I made both these recordings with the same gear, so they are comparable. MX reds:
Vs. MX greens. Clicky MX switches (blues and greens) add a click at 50% travel on top. But I don't find it authentic, like linear reds and blacks.
I think Kbdfr is on to something, though. Sounds like your RSI comes from posture. I got the same thing sitting at desks, so switched to a standing workspace for most of my work. That horizontal display of yours reads like a disaster for your back and arms. How about propping it up at an angle, like a sketchboard?
Vs. MX greens. Clicky MX switches (blues and greens) add a click at 50% travel on top. But I don't find it authentic, like linear reds and blacks.
I think Kbdfr is on to something, though. Sounds like your RSI comes from posture. I got the same thing sitting at desks, so switched to a standing workspace for most of my work. That horizontal display of yours reads like a disaster for your back and arms. How about propping it up at an angle, like a sketchboard?
- kbdfr
- The Tiproman
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID-QM-128A + two Tipro matrix modules
- Main mouse: Contour Rollermouse Pro
- Favorite switch: Cherry black
- DT Pro Member: 0010
What I suggested is that it is a bad idea to take your keyboard on your knees when not using it.
It surely aggravates any RSI symptoms because you have to contract a lot of muscles to keep it there (even if you don't notice) while in fact doing something completely different.
So sliding the keyboard under the cintiq (or, for that, the cintiq over the keyboard) would be a far better solution.
Of course I'm not trying to talk you out of using a mechanical keyboard
but I don't think it is a priority in terms of RSI.
Edit: tried to visualize what I mean by "sliding the cintiq over the keyboard":
It surely aggravates any RSI symptoms because you have to contract a lot of muscles to keep it there (even if you don't notice) while in fact doing something completely different.
So sliding the keyboard under the cintiq (or, for that, the cintiq over the keyboard) would be a far better solution.
Of course I'm not trying to talk you out of using a mechanical keyboard
but I don't think it is a priority in terms of RSI.
Edit: tried to visualize what I mean by "sliding the cintiq over the keyboard":
Last edited by kbdfr on 02 Jan 2015, 13:01, edited 1 time in total.
-
- DT Pro Member: -
Here are two pics of my studio when typing and when drawing. The cintiq never goes 100% horizontal. It is slanted at an angle.
I type about 2000 words/days when I am finishing a book, plus emails, blog posts etc. Drawing is done in 2-3 hours periods.
So far the best way to avoid RS has been to change input methods and positions now and then. So some of my writing is done at my mother's on iphone/ipad, and I have bought an used alphasmart neo for first drafting. When it's really bad, I write longhand on copybooks and sometimes I use Dragon Naturally speaking to dictate, but because of my Italian accent, that does not work well when writing in English. I also found that dictating affects my writing style.
I had carpal tunnel, got operated 3 years ago, was fine for a year, but now other forms of RSI/pain are coming. It mostly comes from being overweight (but I shed 40 pounds in the last few months so it's better) and 3rd/4th vertebrae in my spine being fused together. Tonight I had furious back neck pain and had to take a painkiller, but the most common symptom is buzzing/jolts in fingers when I type and the key hits the bottom of the board. (There are better technical words to describe it but I don't know them).
- kbdfr
- The Tiproman
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID-QM-128A + two Tipro matrix modules
- Main mouse: Contour Rollermouse Pro
- Favorite switch: Cherry black
- DT Pro Member: 0010
Overweight? Welcome on board again
Anyway, all my RSI problems disappeared within two weeks of trashing my mouse and using a Rollermouse instead. As a result, my hands are always in the same position and anything I need for working is just in front of me. So it might well be, as pointed out by woody, that the drawing itself bears at least a partial responsibility for your problems.
I would recommend lowering the height of your desk, because raising your arms always implies straining your shoulders.
And seeing your pics, I would recommend you trash the thing you use for text input and buy a keyboard
I think the actuation force of the switches in your keyboard should be high enough to prevent you from bottoming out or at least alleviate the "shock" this causes.
Anyway, all my RSI problems disappeared within two weeks of trashing my mouse and using a Rollermouse instead. As a result, my hands are always in the same position and anything I need for working is just in front of me. So it might well be, as pointed out by woody, that the drawing itself bears at least a partial responsibility for your problems.
I would recommend lowering the height of your desk, because raising your arms always implies straining your shoulders.
And seeing your pics, I would recommend you trash the thing you use for text input and buy a keyboard
I think the actuation force of the switches in your keyboard should be high enough to prevent you from bottoming out or at least alleviate the "shock" this causes.
-
- DT Pro Member: -
My solution has been to buy a taller chair for the moment so I do not really raise my arms.. they are more or less level with the keyboard.
I wanted to try a vertical ergonomic mouse but will look into the rollermouse too, thanks.
I might just scrap the wireless idea and get a good wired keyboard instead, since looking at the US and UK layouts of the Minila gives me headaches. There is no way to change the accented vowels keys without having to move everything around, it seems...
I wanted to try a vertical ergonomic mouse but will look into the rollermouse too, thanks.
I might just scrap the wireless idea and get a good wired keyboard instead, since looking at the US and UK layouts of the Minila gives me headaches. There is no way to change the accented vowels keys without having to move everything around, it seems...
- ne0phyte
- Toast.
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2
- Main mouse: Mionix Avior 7000
- Favorite switch: Topre 45g, MX Blue
- DT Pro Member: 0003
I know the Microsoft Arc and it felt terrible to me and caused me major fatigue. I'd use Bucking Springs and MX Black switches over those any time. I think the problem with them is, that they require too much force to actuate but have a very small key travel so you HAVE to hammer them to make sure not to miss any keys if you are typing fast.
What I'm trying to say is: get rid of that keyboard and get *anything* with some more key travel. I'd probably even use a cheap 10€ keyboard over that until you have something mechanical.
What I'm trying to say is: get rid of that keyboard and get *anything* with some more key travel. I'd probably even use a cheap 10€ keyboard over that until you have something mechanical.
-
- DT Pro Member: -
the only thing that appears to be available online (Italian stores don't carry much) is the Filco Majestouch with Italian layout but the cord is just 1,5 meters -- there's no way I can have that go around the cintiq and reach a port on my PC under the table. And I'd prefer the tenkeyless version but it's out of stock.
- Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
The aluminum Apple wireless keyboards are sometimes a culprit for RSI. Arm rests are another culprit, sometimes exerting pressure on the ulnar nerve. However, the main issue is usually posture, especially of the hands. You want to keep the wrists elevated and straight while typing.
-
- DT Pro Member: -
i get jolts on the apple wireless as well. As Ne0phyte says above, it's the lack of key travel
-
- DT Pro Member: -
it seems this could do the trick, if I abandon the wireless idea: https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/tr ... 27-english
- ne0phyte
- Toast.
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2
- Main mouse: Mionix Avior 7000
- Favorite switch: Topre 45g, MX Blue
- DT Pro Member: 0003
If you type a lot of Italian I would really think twice. The US international layout is neat because you can type all kinds of accented letters, but then again it requires multiple keystrokes for those instead of single presses.
The 2000 words per day you mentioned aren't that much, many of us who touch type reach 50-100 words per minute so that's only like a couple minutes of typing. But if most of that is in Italian it'll be more keystrokes for the same texts with the US int. layout.
And yes - sadly you have very little options if you stick to the idea of getting a wireless keyboard
The 2000 words per day you mentioned aren't that much, many of us who touch type reach 50-100 words per minute so that's only like a couple minutes of typing. But if most of that is in Italian it'll be more keystrokes for the same texts with the US int. layout.
And yes - sadly you have very little options if you stick to the idea of getting a wireless keyboard
-
- DT Pro Member: -
My books are mostly in English (I write tabletop miniature wargames for the International market, see my site www.ganeshagames.net to understand what I'm talking about) but I do type a lot of correspondence and translations as well so yes, I need Italian keycaps. I have sent a message to Truly Ergonomic - what I do not understand is whether I can change the physical keycaps to reflect the Italian layout on their keyboards (they say I can change the layout in Windows, thank you, but I can't imagine having to remember that I need to press ^ to get an à or whatever.
-
- DT Pro Member: -
I mean 2000 words of edited text per day so it implies a lot of correcting, retyping, copy and paste, moving stuff around. And of course some days I produce much more than that but I'm left with aching fingers afterwards so I tend to intersperse my typing with other work, alternating between drawing and writing.
- crunch
- Location: Sweden
- Main keyboard: Cherry G80-1800, Quickfire Rapid
- Main mouse: Logitech MX518
- Favorite switch: Cherry MX
- DT Pro Member: -
Here is one with italian layout.
http://www.amazon.it/TESORO-Tizona-Mech ... d+italiano
You could always order keycaps from WASD Keyboards.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/ ... p-set.html
http://www.amazon.it/TESORO-Tizona-Mech ... d+italiano
You could always order keycaps from WASD Keyboards.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/ ... p-set.html
-
- DT Pro Member: -
well thank you- it seems on WASD you can create your own layout...! that's what I needed
- Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
I have a WASD V2 87 keyboard. It is a good keyboard and the WASD customer service is the best I have encountered anywhere.
-
- DT Pro Member: -
that's likely what I will be getting, I'm starting to play around with the designer. It's zazzle for keyboards, basically It is very expensive due to import duties, they should open a shop in Europe...
-
- DT Pro Member: -
The color groupings make sense to me but the end result is a bit garish.
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Menu and Fn on the same key? OK now that's clever. Since menu is never used as a modifier, the keyboard can simulate a press/release cycle if it's pressed and released without any intermediate keystrokes (i.e. from being used as Fn).
-
- DT Pro Member: -
I don't even know what Menu is for. I am a writer and know nothing of computing besides the shortcuts used in word processing software, and some of the F, but I tend not to use them. I just type
-
- Location: Örebro, Sweden
- Main keyboard: Varies
- Favorite switch: All clicky
- DT Pro Member: -
I don't have any recommendations for you as far as keyboards go but I have another tip for you.
You say that you want to try to learn touch typing. I did that at the age of 30 and I'm 35 today. What I did was purchase a license to a program named "TypingMaster Pro" ( http://www.typingmaster.com/ ). I actually think that program is awesome and in one week I could slooooooowly touch type after hours in front of that program. After about a month I felt confident enough and stopped practicing.
Then as the weeks go you will start typing faster and faster and after a while you can just think the word and the fingers dances around by themselves with little effort. Today I'm mashing away in 80-100wpm and I love that I can touch type. I had wanted to be able to do it my whole life but did not do anyting about it till I was 30. It makes my interest in keyboards even stronger today as I love to type everything and nothing!
You say that you want to try to learn touch typing. I did that at the age of 30 and I'm 35 today. What I did was purchase a license to a program named "TypingMaster Pro" ( http://www.typingmaster.com/ ). I actually think that program is awesome and in one week I could slooooooowly touch type after hours in front of that program. After about a month I felt confident enough and stopped practicing.
Then as the weeks go you will start typing faster and faster and after a while you can just think the word and the fingers dances around by themselves with little effort. Today I'm mashing away in 80-100wpm and I love that I can touch type. I had wanted to be able to do it my whole life but did not do anyting about it till I was 30. It makes my interest in keyboards even stronger today as I love to type everything and nothing!
-
- DT Pro Member: -
Thanks, yes that will be probably something I will do in the future. Now I have a deadline but next month as soon as my book is with the publisher I'll take some time off and start to learn the basics.