RollerMouse - your opinions?

davkol

Unread post by davkol » 20 Feb 2017, 12:37

Choice of driving side is entirely arbitrary AFAIK.

The same can't be said for very different methods. You complaint could be somewhat valid, if you compared steering wheel to, say, a joystick. Either has (dis)advantages.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

Unread post by kbdfr » 20 Feb 2017, 13:19

I was of course joking.

The situation here is that someone has his USB stick plugged into his supervisor's computer to show him something
and, never having used a RollerMouse before and being unable to instantly cope with it when needed,
he has to tell the supervisor where to klick.

He will have tried for 10, perhaps 20 seconds, one full minute perhaps - a long time when your supervisor is waiting.
But instead of saying this first try with this unknown device was a complete mess in this situation,
he blames the RollerMouse.
I wonder why he learnt to walk after falling on his nose the first time he tried :lol:

davkol

Unread post by davkol » 20 Feb 2017, 14:49

Intuitiveness is a big deal in user interfaces.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

Unread post by kbdfr » 20 Feb 2017, 16:04

davkol wrote: Intuitiveness is a big deal in user interfaces.
Good excuse for not even trying.
"Oh, I positively KNOW it's bad. I just KNOW it. Intuitively. Because the pointer reacted in a way I had not expected."

randomist

Unread post by randomist » 20 Feb 2017, 20:46

Why so abrasive?

where did two minutes come from? I never said this was an isolated occassion. The guy was my supervisor for years, hence multiple mathematical models. The fact that there was a negative opinion concerning your precious roller mouse really bothers you that much?

I play both guitar and bass by the way, that comparison is pretty stupid, too. If your fingers or wrists hurt even when you start to play, STOP. you're doing something wrong or over doing it. A more valid comparison is persevering with wearing shoes two sizes too small because they might break in eventually.

Just accept it, some people don't like the same things as you, immediately making sweeping assumptions and making unrelated comparisons is not the way to go forward discussing it.

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Phenix
-p

Re: RollerMouse - your opinions?

Unread post by Phenix » 20 Feb 2017, 21:21

I think he wants to say: you need some time to learn to use certain things - and once you mastered them you have an better overal experience.


Example:
-ride a bike - you have to learn how to use it, but after you can be faster.

Ergonomics is an harder topic - each their own.

If your saddle hurts you - try another.

But its needed to actually try to get used to, so that one finds his optimal saddle [or mouse, whatever]

randomist

Unread post by randomist » 20 Feb 2017, 22:03

I appreciate that, BUT this is the ONLY pointing device that I have found to be this bad, and I'd say I've used it for long enough to know its not for me anyway. Other pointing devices that took much less time for me to be comfortble with:
Ball mouse
Optical (inc. laser) mouse
Trackball
Pointer navigation on numpad on windows 3.0.
Mouse emulation on Ducky kekyboards.
Gyration mouse.
Pointing stick (you might know this as TrackPoint or something).
Graphics tablet.
and Trackpad (preferably multitouch).

I've used many of these much less than the roller mouse, and yet they work for me with no discomfort. Roller Mouse is not my "optimal saddle" (that's a Charge Knife in the bike world if you know about these things).

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Phenix
-p

Unread post by Phenix » 20 Feb 2017, 22:47

(that's a Charge Knife in the bike world if you know about these things).
Im thankfully not into bikes (no place to stash them in :lol: ), but I get you - optimal is hard to define+achieve

If it is not working out for you that's fine - and its good to hear that you tried many alternatives.

For me the rollermouse was speed-wise comparable to an normal mouse, while using trackball (Kensingtion Slimblade) was hard for me (I keep going to an corner often to focus where the pointer is :| ) so it sucked a bit - I have to admit I didn't put as much time getting used to as in other mice (1 week maybe).

Had also an vertical mouse - was ok, but I prefer an Roccat Kone (not for gaming - easyshift gets me copy/paste/cut/enter/media controls at the mouse).

randomist

Unread post by randomist » 20 Feb 2017, 23:25

Phenix wrote:
(that's a Charge Knife in the bike world if you know about these things).
Im thankfully not into bikes (no place to stash them in :lol: ), but I get you - optimal is hard to define+achieve

If it is not working out for you that's fine - and its good to hear that you tried many alternatives.

For me the rollermouse was speed-wise comparable to an normal mouse, while using trackball (Kensingtion Slimblade) was hard for me (I keep going to an corner often to focus where the pointer is :| ) so it sucked a bit - I have to admit I didn't put as much time getting used to as in other mice (1 week maybe).

Had also an vertical mouse - was ok, but I prefer an Roccat Kone (not for gaming - easyshift gets me copy/paste/cut/enter/media controls at the mouse).
Just to be clear, I'm not a roadie, that much lycra can NOT be good for you :lol:

Optimal doesn't really exist where manufactured devices interfacing with soft fleshy humans is concerned, there's always some compromise, but you've got to draw a line when there are too many. What the compromises are depend on the individual.

One of the fascinating things about humans, there is no such thing as the "average" person. You can take as many measurements as you want, average them out and make the perfect device for the average human being. You could even divide the group to averages for males and females, include age group restrictions etc. and yet the average device created from those measurements would fit precisely nobody perfectly, or even closely. The U.S. air force tried this approach to making a useless cockpit, I beleive.

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Phenix
-p

Re: RollerMouse - your opinions?

Unread post by Phenix » 20 Feb 2017, 23:41

Thats really interesting!
Reminds me of the story with the NASA which inventured an pen for use in the space..
Russian's just used pencil ;D
(if am not mistaken, heard of an friend - should google it at home sometime)

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Daniel Beardsmore

Unread post by Daniel Beardsmore » 20 Feb 2017, 23:47


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kbdfr
The Tiproman

Unread post by kbdfr » 21 Feb 2017, 12:33

randomist wrote: Why so abrasive?
It's just the way I am - some call me the "grumpy chocolate bar" :lol:
where did two minutes come from? I never said this was an isolated occassion. The guy was my supervisor for years, hence multiple mathematical models.
Well, your original post obviously does not refer to multiple experiences:
"[…] He asked me to navigate to some mathematical model or other I was working on on my thumb drive. The moment I touched the "mouse" the cursor had a mind of its own... I had to give up and just tell him which folders to open."

Or did you really have to go through the whole procedure (trying, cursor not responding as expected, giving up and telling your supervisor which folders to open) every single time you had to report during all these years?
If so, what a sadistic supervisor :lol:
I play both guitar and bass by the way, that comparison is pretty stupid, too. If your fingers or wrists hurt even when you start to play, STOP. you're doing something wrong or over doing it. […]
I didn't refer to "when you start to play", but wrote "the first time you take a guitar in your hands" and "Putting it aside after the first try".
Of course your fingertips have to get accustomed to pressing a string instead of a surface, and hurt after a few minutes the first time you do it:
http://www.keytarhq.com/playing-guitar- ... ngers.html
(And probably you imagine I wouldn't have written that if I did not play a few string instruments myself.)
Just accept it, some people don't like the same things as you […]
No problem, I know a lot of people don't like Cherry MX blacks, which are my preferred switches.
But they at least don't claim "I pushed one on an occasion and they are just crap".
Spoiler:
Perhaps you should have tried this:

randomist

Unread post by randomist » 21 Feb 2017, 21:50

Believe what you want, frankly I don't care what you think of me. Devaluing an opinion because it conflicts with yours rather than just asking a few polite questions or discussing reasons is a pretty low tactic.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

Unread post by kbdfr » 22 Feb 2017, 11:57

Just for the record:
pixelheresy wrote: […] I was always curious about the Rollermouse (I am a touch-typist and a software dev who uses VIM, so my hands are glued to the keyboard 90% of the day), but it always something that seemed very awkward. One of my coworker when I worked at Viaplay used one exclusively and I would *hate* peer coding at her desk, since she used both Swedish layout and the Rollermouse.

So yesterday, I go to a local thrift store yesterday and find one for 60 SEK (6.34 € or $6.67 US). It was dirty as hell and the rollerbar didn't click 100% right, but worth a try. I cleaned it, fixed the rollerbar (the one plastic stop on the end came loose), and set the mofo up.

It took me about an hour or so to get used to it, tune it to the right acceleration and do a button mapping I like, but O GAWD YAS! I basically have the bar set to click, the left, middle, and right set to their respective buttons, disabled the scroll wheel click, and set the two little buttons to button 4 and 5. With BetterTouch tool on the Mac, I have middle mapped to Spaces and the two little buttons to Move Space Right and Move Space Left, so I can page between my desktops *super quickly*.

I am serious. If you know someone with it and you are a touch typist, borrow one from someone for an afternoon and try it out. […]

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pixelheresy

Unread post by pixelheresy » 22 Feb 2017, 14:44

I am pixelheresy, and I approve of this message. ^^^

Seriously, coming back to something and giving it an honest try is sometimes all it takes. As I said, find it for pocket change or borrow. I am on day 2 and already want to get one for home.

amospalla
let's go

Unread post by amospalla » 23 Feb 2017, 09:35

I am seriously considering to get a Rollermouse.

My motivation is purely functional, not health related. I am into 12 hours a day keyboard use with 60% keyboard to never ever lose track of J/K keys. The only thing that makes me lose F/J position is using the trackball.

Do you think that the benefits of Rollermouse (as of never losing keyboard position) outweigh the lose of some pointer precission?

Of course health benefits are a big plus, I had some wrist pain in the past, and not having it today does not change the fact that in will have them for sure in the future. I guess this reason alone makes it worth it :roll:

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pixelheresy

Unread post by pixelheresy » 23 Feb 2017, 10:04

amospalla wrote: I am seriously considering to get a Rollermouse.

My motivation is purely functional, not health related. I am into 12 hours a day keyboard use with 60% keyboard to never ever lose track of J/K keys. The only thing that makes me lose F/J position is using the trackball.

Do you think that the benefits of Rollermouse (as of never losing keyboard position) outweigh the lose of some pointer precission?

Of course health benefits are a big plus, I had some wrist pain in the past, and not having it today does not change the fact that in will have them for sure in the future. I guess this reason alone makes it worth it :roll:
I am not doing it for health, just because I am, like you, continually on the home row. I just liked the idea of not having to pick up my hands and reach (unless it is for coffee) :)

It is a very precise pointer, in my opinion, except when dragging "one handed". When dragging, click with the button rather than the bar.

amospalla
let's go

Unread post by amospalla » 23 Feb 2017, 19:02

Decided then, thank you pixelheresy.

Next monday I am putting my hands on it.

davkol

Unread post by davkol » 23 Feb 2017, 22:06

Hmm. My experience was kind of the opposite.

I got a chance to get a Pro and was eager to try it. Everything was great and stuff (except for precision movements or clicking with bar without moving the cursor), until my wrist started to hurt a few sessions later. It turned out I was deviating my wrist, so that it'd be aligned with buttons/wheel.

Now I have a Free2 to give it another try… it's a struggle, though. Only the form factor and wide wheel are better at first sight.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

Unread post by vivalarevolución » 24 Feb 2017, 23:06

Wow, this thread has some new life.

I fully support everyone's effort to use the Rollermouse. I love mine.

amospalla
let's go

Unread post by amospalla » 27 Feb 2017, 09:02

Just plugged my new Rollermouse Red at work, and these are my conclussions after using if (for approximately one minute :lol:):

The pointer is incredible comfortable to reach, really. It is at a perfect position both pointer and buttons so typing and using pointer behave like one single device, it is great. Trying to reach the trackball and realizing that I've got a pointer available without even moving my fingers from the home row is something I've been dreaming for years. Amazing.

Now I also understand the comments about pointer precission. I have to get used to this altough I don't think this will ever provide me the same pointer precission I have with the trackball.

This specific model has only two additional buttons (copy and paste) that would like to remap. I am afraid I won't be able to remap them though I'll take a look at this at home.

This is my less than a minute usage review, more to come after a couple of days usage.

EDIT:
Copy and paste buttons are not remapable under Linux as far as I see. Bad for me. The button marked as double click seems not posible to remap neither.

Had to attach my trackball early to be able to fluently work today.
Last edited by amospalla on 27 Feb 2017, 12:01, edited 1 time in total.

andrewjoy

Unread post by andrewjoy » 27 Feb 2017, 11:58

What model did you get in the end ? What resolution is your monitor and what OS are you using ?

amospalla
let's go

Unread post by amospalla » 27 Feb 2017, 12:51

Got the Re:d, just for one reason, has the shortest width amongst them all. Used with a HHKB the Rollermouse has an acceptable width. I don't know at all if one of the other two models would have been better suited for me but this one is ok.

I use Linux with several fullhd monitors and a tiling wm, lots of terminals with firefox/thunderbird mainly on my day to day use at home and the same at work with the addition of some rdp.

EDIT: I also like the height at which the keyboard is lifted, better than my old wrist rest. Rollermouse and keyboard keep attached one to the other, and adjusting to left/right either one of these is very easy while the other keeps its relative position. In general much better than the combo wrist rest/keyboard/trackball and their constant position adjustments.

davkol

Unread post by davkol » 27 Feb 2017, 13:25

According to some review, you might be able to remap the doubleclick button to middle click by holding "cursor speed" and "doubleclick" for two seconds.

Official configuration software (Windows/macOS only) apparently supports some remapping too (clickclack123's post). I wonder, if it can be forced to work on GNU/Linux…

amospalla
let's go

Unread post by amospalla » 27 Feb 2017, 14:26

True davkol, I won a button. Later took a look to the manual and saw some extra settings that can be customized.

That software to customize button actions seems a windows one. I'll try it at home with a windows computer. The settings that can be managed with the device itself do persist after unplugging and plug the device to an usb port so maybe I am lucky enough it also remembers the changes done with the software remapper. I'll comment later.

Thank you!

amospalla
let's go

Unread post by amospalla » 03 Mar 2017, 19:53

I've been using the Red model during all the week. Just as I could not go back to a regular mouse after using a good trackball like L-Trac or Slimblade (being the former by far more precise), I can not think of going back to a trackball after using this pointer. The Rollermouse is a very robust device, no way you may feel any cheap within it.

It keeps getting on my way when I use the pointer, being the problem that I continuously hit the boundaries with the bar. This becomes a bit disturbing. I need more practice and learn how to avoid this.

Beyond this little problem of the bar boundaries I have, I am enjoying the device a lot. I can only recommend it to those hardcore keyboard users or touch typers who feel moving the arm to reach the mouse and come back is annoying.

Under Linux you can not remap Control-C or Control-V keys though. Only under windows with the software. Also getting a proper acceleration profile is important with this device. I am still trying to end with a good one, in the meanwhile this is what I am using right now with the device having cursor speed to its minimum:

Code: Select all

xset m 2 1
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Device Accel Profile" 3
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Device Accel Constant Deceleration" 3
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Device Accel Adaptive Deceleration" 5.5
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Device Accel Velocity Scaling" 10

davkol

Unread post by davkol » 14 Mar 2017, 18:16

BTW it needs cleaning from time to time—dust/hairs under the bar and on the sensor. Unfortunately, Free2 can't be easily opened for cleaning (AFAIK) and the middle of it isn't accessible with q-tips either. I've been successful only with sliding a corner of toilet paper sheet; I hope it's sufficient.

amospalla
let's go

Unread post by amospalla » 14 Mar 2017, 22:18

I tried to open it and it was clear from the start that it was not going to be easy, so I didn't.

After a couple of weeks use it feels very natural to me. I already don't hit the boundaries with the bar and pointer precission is quite good for day to day use.

Using these settings right now:

Code: Select all

xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Evdev Wheel Emulation" 1
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Evdev Wheel Emulation Button" 2
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Evdev Wheel Emulation Timeout" 300
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Evdev Wheel Emulation Inertia" 5
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Evdev Wheel Emulation Axes" 6 7 4 5
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Device Accel Profile" 0
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Device Accel Constant Deceleration" 1
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Device Accel Profile" 3
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Device Accel Constant Deceleration" 2.1
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Device Accel Adaptive Deceleration" 5.5
xinput set-prop "${deviceid}" "Device Accel Velocity Scaling" 10
Surprisingly I don't even miss the CST LTRAC. It seems expensive but you realize it is worth every cent once you get used to it.

yensteel

Unread post by yensteel » 04 Apr 2017, 14:27

You should try the rollermouse RED. I own one, and it works very well. The roller bar is bigger with some dimples for gripping. The scrollwheel isn't clicky enough though, but that's a minor inconvenience.

highpass

Unread post by highpass » 10 Apr 2017, 16:04

Are there any CAD users out there that can comment on the Rollermouse? I have been testing one out and would say that I generally love it in any application that does not rely on one hand hitting keyboard commands and the other controlling the rollerbar. This includes CAD, 3D, Photoshop, etc etc. I suppose it's simpler to say "it's great for web browsing and email".

Perhaps I simply haven't figured out the correct fighting stance, but typically I find myself with one hand over the other, which is clumsy, and makes me feel like an idiot.

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