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Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 12:48
by Muirium
Yes: Beam, F and Topre are all capsense. This makes them all inherently NKRO as well as removing friction from the slider. Mind, the same is true for Foam & Foil, so it's not a one-way golden ticket to greatness! But capsense sure doesn't hurt.
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 13:03
by ifohancroft
Muirium wrote: ↑28 Jan 2022, 12:48
Yes: Beam, F and Topre are all capsense. This makes them all inherently NKRO as well as removing friction from the slider. Mind, the same is true for Foam & Foil, so it's not a one-way golden ticket to greatness! But capsense sure doesn't hurt.
Thank you, Mu!
Well, of course, if you shit yourself, perfume won't save you, regardless of how good of a perfume it is.
P.S. Do you happen to know if switch bouncing affects capsense? I.e. does it need debouncing?
P.P.S. How does it remove friction from the slider?
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 13:14
by Muirium
ifohancroft wrote: ↑28 Jan 2022, 13:03
P.S. Do you happen to know if switch bouncing affects capsense? I.e. does it need debouncing?
Bounce is an electrical effect of switch contacts touching each other, so capsense doesn't have it. In contact switches (think Alps and MX) what really happens is two bits of metal touch each other,
slowly at a
microscopic scale. Keyboards poll their matrix at 1000 Hz or more, so controllers will see scratchy signals coming from switches in those early stages of making fresh contact. It takes a little while for the switch to fully close. Until then, you've got a noisy signal which doesn't pass the threshold. I think Soarer mentioned (in his controller docs) the other matrix components—diodes—affecting bounce as well, as they take a while to stabilise with every strobe sweep.
Capsense is inherently analogue. Try watching the live signal numbers dancing in Pandrew's capsense QMK!
P.P.S. How does it remove friction from the slider?
No metal contacts rubbing. No touchy moment when the contacts
contact. Capsense (and similarly, magnetic sensing like Hall Effect) truly lets linear switches sing. Reducing friction is always good, whatever the key feel, as it lets the tactile event, if present, dominate the feel instead of getting all masked by rubbing, let alone the stiff bit of key travel as the contacts touch. (Both things happen in a big way in clicky MX.)
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 13:26
by ifohancroft
Muirium wrote: ↑28 Jan 2022, 13:14
ifohancroft wrote: ↑28 Jan 2022, 13:03
P.S. Do you happen to know if switch bouncing affects capsense? I.e. does it need debouncing?
Bounce is an electrical effect of switch contacts touching each other, so capsense doesn't have it. In contact switches (think Alps and MX) what really happens is two bits of metal touch each other,
slowly at a
microscopic scale. Keyboards poll their matrix at 1000 Hz or more, so controllers will see scratchy signals coming from switches in those early stages of making fresh contact. It takes a little while for the switch to fully close. Until then, you've got a noisy signal which doesn't pass the threshold. I think Soarer mentioned (in his controller docs) the other matrix components—diodes—affecting bounce as well, as they take a while to stabilise with every strobe sweep.
Capsense is inherently analogue. Try watching the live signal numbers dancing in Pandrew's capsense QMK!
P.P.S. How does it remove friction from the slider?
No metal contacts rubbing. No touchy moment when the contacts
contact. Capsense (and similarly, magnetic sensing like Hall Effect) truly lets linear switches sing. Reducing friction is always good, whatever the key feel, as it lets the tactile event, if present, dominate the feel instead of getting all masked by rubbing, let alone the stiff bit of key travel as the contacts touch. (Both things happen in a big way in clicky MX.)
Thank you so much!
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 18:00
by Bjerrk
ifohancroft wrote: ↑28 Jan 2022, 13:26
Muirium wrote: ↑28 Jan 2022, 13:14
P.P.S. How does it remove friction from the slider?
No metal contacts rubbing. No touchy moment when the contacts
contact. Capsense (and similarly, magnetic sensing like Hall Effect) truly lets linear switches sing.
Wouldn't say that's so much an effect of capacitive sensing as of general switch design. The Model M membrane buckling springs do this just as much as the Model F. And other membrane based switches avoid rubbing contacts as well, such as Acer switches. No rubby contact there.
But I will give you that capacitive sensing is at least one way to achieve this. It's just important to realize that it doesn't apply to e.g. Model M vs Model F comparisons...
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 18:11
by sharktastica
If you're after a mechanical mouse, I recommend this one since it's good for all ages:
- lol.jpg (222.64 KiB) Viewed 15671 times
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 18:13
by Bjerrk
Muirium wrote: ↑28 Jan 2022, 13:14
P.P.S. How does it remove friction from the slider?
No metal contacts rubbing. No touchy moment when the contacts
contact.
I guess a good parallel here is Alps plate spring switches. They are simple resistive switches, but also quite resemble a simplified beamspring switch. However, no rubbing contacts are involved, despite their resistive nature.
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 18:15
by sharktastica
However, just like with keyboards, "mEcHaNiCaL" doesn't always mean better. Their are better mice.
- lol2.jpg (140.07 KiB) Viewed 15655 times
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 19:16
by ifohancroft
Does anyone know if it would be possible to use capacitive sensing on switches with a coil spring inside them? I.e. MX, Alps SKCM, etc..
I know inductive sensing is possible, but is capacitive?
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 22:16
by Muirium
Possible maybe. But feasible? Maybe not. Topre springs are conical so to present a much larger conductive area (near) to the PCB’s sense pad when pressed down. MX etc. use coil springs, which just get denser as they’re pushed down onto their peg. The capacitive sensor may not see anything obvious enough to make a good switch.
There’s nothing wrong with other forms of non-contact sensing. Hall Effect is as good as capsense. The key is just to leave the slider untouched. The precise way you do this is of secondary concern.
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 22:21
by Bjerrk
(And plenty possible with good old on/off resistive sensing
)
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 28 Jan 2022, 22:22
by Muirium
Is that the kind where you mic the user to detect actuation by the sound of their groaning?
Fun fact: most microphones are capsense. (Typically called condenser microphones.) The rest are inductive. (Called dynamic microphones.) The difference is how sensitive they are vs. how much room noise they pick up. Condenser mics have less mass in their diaphragm (it’s just one conducting half of the capacitor) so get more signal and more noise. Dynamic* mics have an electromagnet on the diaphragm, making it a lot less sensitive, but well suited to a capturing a clean signal when pressed right up against someone’s lyric screaming face! (With a pop filter, if possible. Else PFFTeel the PFFWPTFower!)
*Anyone care to heat up a pot full of pedantry over ribbon mics?
Re: Best mechanical mouse you can recommend!
Posted: 29 Jan 2022, 00:44
by ifohancroft
Muirium wrote: ↑28 Jan 2022, 22:16
Possible maybe. But feasible? Maybe not. Topre springs are conical so to present a much larger conductive area (near) to the PCB’s sense pad when pressed down. MX etc. use coil springs, which just get denser as they’re pushed down onto their peg. The capacitive sensor may not see anything obvious enough to make a good switch.
There’s nothing wrong with other forms of non-contact sensing. Hall Effect is as good as capsense. The key is just to leave the slider untouched. The precise way you do this is of secondary concern.
My idea is that if it's possible, I can theoretically make a discrete controller that can handle MX, Alps, Topre, Buckling Spring and Beamspring switches. The main PCB will hold just the switches, so depending on the switch type you want, you replace just the plate and main PCB. With the added bonus of not having to debounce or solder/desolder MX and Alps switches.
I guess with a careful consideration of the components, the same can be achieved even if you are sensing the MX and Alps switches the regular way, however if I can avoid having to debounce them at all, that would be great. I guess if not possible, induction sensing is always an option.
Although, while I love the idea of a single controller board that can handle all those switch types, I have to consider the best possible mounting style and PCB configuration for each switch type, so it may not be feasible to have them all use the same housing or even have the controller as a separate PCB.