Advice on mice to stop RSI problems

Mssr D

27 May 2011, 01:04

My impression is that a lot of the stress on the hand is caused from the clicking action. I've heard recommendations to switch left click to, say, Caps Lock to relieve this stress, but it seems like an imperfect solution. Pointing devices are very difficult to use easily without straining your carpals.

I might suggest transferring your mouse buttons to a footpedal. They can run pretty expensive, up to $250. Good Work Systems offers their Fragpedal (its aimed for gaming) at $80. The Fragpedal ships with four buttons that are fully programmable to any keystroke, mouse function or advanced macro (key sequence, combination, conditional statement, etc.). An advantage to the Fragpedal is that once it is configured (with, say, left click, right click, Ctrl+C and Ctrl+v), you can take it from that computer to another and the controls will still work as initially configured.

The product page is available here: http://gamingmouse.com/weapon.php?pid=175
They've also got a community blog here, which I believe has just been started: www.goodworkmatters.com

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sordna

27 May 2011, 08:42

Interesting suggestion to use Caps Lock for clicking, I never thought of that. Dragging / drawing, anything that requires precise movements while a mouse button is held down, puts a lot of strain on the hand. I like the idea of emulating the left click with a footswitch or a key such as caps lock, for precision mouse work!

I'm trying it and it works, I just put this in ~/.xbindkeysrc:
"xte 'mousedown 1'"
Caps_Lock

"xte 'mouseup 1'"
release+Caps_Lock

and ran xbindkeys to activate it. xte is part of xautomation, xdotool is another alternative.
Now I can hold down caps lock while moving the mouse instead of holding the left button down, neat!

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sordna

27 May 2011, 08:45

Anyway, has anyone used the DXT vertical mouse?
http://www.cityergonomics.com/

Comments? I wonder how much force is needed to click the buttons.

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sordna

10 Jun 2011, 10:02

Regarding mouse cliks via the keyboard, there's an even easier alternative: MouseKeys.
xkbset m (turns them on, but you might have to do "xkbset a" first). xkbset -m turns them off.
While on, the keypad behaves like a mouse, you can even move the pointer diagonally,
click with the 5 key, swap the click to a right-click with - and back to left with
click-and-hold with the 0 key (for drawing/dragging) and end the hold with the . numpad key.

Nicholas

18 Jul 2011, 06:37

I have tried different types of mice to alleviate the strain on the bad joints on my finger. The vertical mouse did help to reduce the stress on my fingers, but what it did was to transfer the stress onto my shoulders :?

After a while, I gave up trying to find the perfect mouse to stop my RSI problem. The best way is probably to give our index finger and wrist a rest once every 15 mins or so. Unfortunately, it may not be possible to take so many frequent breaks throughout the work day. The trick for me is to change to a different sitting posture and avoid the same prolonged and repetitive way we use the mouse.

One way is to switch between the left and right hands, as mentioned by some posters here. Another is to alternate between the different fingers and to avoid gripping the mouse constantly.

Did a search and found the following link for the Z-Nano mouse, which allows the user to switch between different fingers due to the front-back clicking :
http://www.zcyinc.com/2010/12/z-finger- ... llers.html

Is it available yet? Anybody knows where I can get it?

alec

26 Sep 2011, 13:52

Want to share my experience

I noticed pain in wrist and index finger after longer gaming sessions. I have to use moouse a lot at workplace as well and total strain was too much.
The symptoms went away when i switched my mouse hand, but only on workplace. So i use left hand there (and it is great, mouse is closer to keyboard to the extent of numpad and arrowkeys), rearranged stuff on desk etc.
At home I still use right hand. Mousing is distributed between two hands quite evenly now, never had a pain anymore for five years now.

The fact that I use different hand at different environments makes it effortless to switch for me. And obviously different tasks. Browsing, gaming at home and working with documents and graphics at work. It takes surprisingly little time to get used to.
Can't comment whether just placing mouse on different side of keyboard from time to time would work.

pyro

30 Sep 2011, 22:28

You could also remap mousebuttons to the keyboard.

cityergo

04 Feb 2012, 14:59

sordna wrote:Anyway, has anyone used the DXT vertical mouse?
http://www.cityergonomics.com/

Comments? I wonder how much force is needed to click the buttons.
Hi. The DXT Mouse uses high quality micro switches from Omron. The buttons are designed to click at the same force as a normal mouse (between 70-75grams).

If you have any more questions about the DXT Mouse please contact City Ergonomics direct or visit our website http://www.cityergonomics.com to view our DXT video.

You can purchase and review feedback on the DXT at Amazon http://www.amazon.co.uk/Precision-Ergon ... B003ZK73WK

hoggy

04 Feb 2012, 15:24

Welcome to Deskthority!

I got a dxt for christmas (lucky me!). Started using it at work - fairly comfortable, but I'd prefer if it was larger. I've got largish hands and to use the first two fingers for the mouse buttons means I need to rotate the wrist away from vertical. My other mouse is a 3m, but I can't use that with my left.

hoggy

17 Feb 2012, 07:37

After using the dxt for a while it's really starting to grow on me. I prefer the 3m, but the dxt has some redeeming qualities.

You can use it with either hand. There's a button underneath to toggle that as you grip the mouse side on.

There are three sensitivity settings built into the mouse. More mice should have this.

I don't really notice it anymore. I would say that's a good thing.

cityergo

08 Mar 2012, 18:48

Thanks for your feedback.

The DXT Mouse is designed to allow maximum comfort without losing the precision of the cursor. Unlike other mice, which require whole arm movements such as the 3m which may reduce accuracy of the cursor movements, the DXT is a "fingertip" mouse which permits fine detailed movements of the cursor while allowing the wrist forearm and hand to adopt a natural posture.

The DXT allows you to move the cursor efficiently across the whole screen by utilising just the fingers and thumb. This can be achieved without any shoulder movement. At the user’s discretion, any other joints of the upper limb (wrist, shoulder, etc.) may also be used.

Check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZAdm639-1A out where a user explains the DXT Mouse.

domin8r

17 Apr 2012, 14:30

I would really recommend a tablet.. Wacom still supports all Intuos models so you could try a cheap old one.

Because your wrist is rotated to a normal relaxed position (sort of upright instead of flattened) you don't put so much strain on the tendons. Really made a lot of difference when I was having rsi-like complaints.

bootstrap

22 Apr 2012, 20:48

I have a Mousetrapper Flexible - it's the most comfortable pointing device I've used. It took away the wrist pain I was getting from prolonged use of a standard mouse.

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Icarium

22 Apr 2012, 21:10

Looks interesting too bad all those novel input devices are so filthy expensive. I just got a rollermouse and would love to know how it compares to that. Then again I just got a rollermouse so I don't have over $200 for a mouse right now. :)

Multiple

01 Jun 2012, 17:16

webwit wrote:Use the left hand.
That seems like a juvenile shit advice to me, but allow me to explain why;

A long time ago my bread and butter was playing ice hockey, unfortunately to me, my right wrist developed a cyst and the joint was troubled by pain. Some said it messed with my play so I started to look for a solution. While obvious in retrospect, the cause was my aluminium stick. It caused high pitched vibrations when strucked, which had problematic effects if you can imagine. Promptly I switched to another brand using wood sticks, but I still had the problem in my wrist even after a year of play. It seemed as if every stick I tried was too stiff. A resolution were not to be found until I played a friendship match with a Soviet team who seemed to receive impossibly powerful passes that just stuck to their blades. I got curious and it turned out they used a particulary viscous wood in their sticks (unfortunately the brand escapes me at the moment) that smoothens vibrations to increase contact. So, right away I got an ample supply worth of sticks from their brand and from there on my problems went away to never be seen again.

Now, the point is I'm left handed naturally yet played right handed because that's what I preferred in the game, I couldn't change side, even if it would be possible for me, since the position was taken by someone who wouldn't change. If you consider where the hockey board is when you play left versus right I'm sure you'll understand why it would be hard for anyone to change their position, just give it some thought. Then, if you still don't get it, just let me know and I'll explain why (as I actually will do if you continue to read).

A qlue is, it is similar to mouses and keyboards - if you change to a left sided mouse, how in the world are you going to reach ctrl+c/v or use your F-keys on your Model F AT if your left hand is on the mouse? How are you going to stop a puck glued to the right side of the rim if you're playing left handed and vice verse? There is no how. Well, unless you chop up your keyboard and rewire it, maybe then, but who will do this for you if you can not do it by yourself?

So where is your cynicism, implying nonsolutions, coming from? Would it not be possible for you, and let say ripster, to start a petition of some sort to request a high end product from various manufactures, with none of the bullshit consumer crap that we otherwise have to put up with, such as 65g actuation force on mouse buttons? It's a question for you.

That and my right finger is sore as hell and no, I'm not switching to left.
Last edited by Multiple on 01 Jun 2012, 18:59, edited 1 time in total.

ripster

01 Jun 2012, 17:31

Rule #0 - Don't Insult The Site Admins

I use my CST LaserTrac trackball lefthanded despite being righthanded. Wouldn't use it for gaming though. I just do it to prevent right hand pain.

hoggy

01 Jun 2012, 17:32

Hey, play nice. If you don't like the advice, that's fine - don't follow it. Besides, the advice wasn't meant for you.

Since you mention a problem with your wrist, some pain and a reluctance to swap - have you looked at the 3M vertical mouse? It has both buttons under the thumb. I've had one at work for around 3 years and no problems with it.

Multiple

01 Jun 2012, 18:18

I've not checked out the 3M vertical mouse, thumb buttons could be it though. So that's a good advice, changing to left side isn't a sound possibility (not a reluctance) since keyboards rarely are left sided, thus your possiblities are limited, and then even if they were not, it wouldn't lessen the actuation force on those pesky mouse buttons would it? Here's another advice, the handshoe mouse now have Light Click™ buttons as option, I just found out. Probably not related, but I did mail their chief some time ago and ask about the actuation force on their mouse buttons and apparently he did not know the answer because one of his engineers had to clear the question. Unsurprisingly they used generic stock microswitches, just like all the other mices. Luckily though, they aren't any more, so that might be an option.

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7bit

01 Jun 2012, 18:40

Buy this and RSI goes away immediately:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t2722.html

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

01 Jun 2012, 18:59

7bit wrote:Buy this and RSI goes away immediately:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t2722.html
I can confirm that without any restriction.
Great device, no more grasping for a silly mouse.
A pity such "mouse bars" are not integrated into keyboards as a standard.

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cookie

08 Jun 2012, 23:59

Unfortunately I can't help you with a concrete product to buy but maybe with a more afterstate solution.
I had really bad RSI and I am 95% recovered and can work fulltime again without taking brakes every 45 minutes.

Click here to read the full story: http://deskthority.net/off-topic-f10/my ... t2793.html

Wish your wife the best!

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didja

09 Jun 2012, 04:19

Some things that helped me. Just mouse changes alone didn't help.

Rotate switch types, I finally settled on using MX Browns, Topre and Scissors 90% of the time, rotating between them. I still use other fun switches 10% of the time.

Switched mouse back to clicky scroll rather than freewheel (G9X) I was flicking the wheel to scroll fast too often and found it made my hands worse. My mouse you can adjust it to freewheel or drag and drag/clicking is much better on my hands. So try not to flick the wheel so much.

Drugs. I have arthritis despite being relatively young. Get a good rheumatologist if you think your issues might extend beyond your wrist(s)

Avoid extended trackpoint use if it bugs you. My Dell "controlpoint" was hell on my finger joints. Lenovo/Thinkpad not so bad.

Tenkeyless and compact keyboards like G80-1800's to keep your ergo angles more betterer.

Wish I could try a datahand. Though I've reduced my hand and wrist issues, they still get pretty bad at times and one day I might spring for one.

pondscum

01 Jul 2012, 15:24

Findecanor wrote:Most mouse buttons are levers, meaning that the position on the button that you press determines the amount of pressure needed. Many mouse buttons also have switches that are too stiff. On many mice, the button is a part of the flexible plastic shell of the mouse, and that also adds resistance.

The finger position also depends on the size of the mouse and the users hands. A mouse that is the right size for a man may be wrong for a woman with smaller hands.

When I started getting RSI/Carpal tunnel problems, I changed my mouse (vertical), keyboard (tenkeyless low-force mechanical) and posture (lower desk, higher chair, sit up straight).
I noticed that I still got pains in my index finger using my vertical WowPen Joy. When I had replaced the switch with a lighter one, the problems almost disappeared. I can still get pain in my wrist after a long session of heavy mousing, though.

There are also other pointing devices: trackballs, track pads, roller mouse, mouse tracker (mechanical track pad).
You could also learn to use more keyboard shortcuts instead of mousing, if possible.
This. Switching up posture and mice, and choosing something more suited to your hand shape works wonders - as well as maintaining variety among mice that you find comfortable. People get RSI because they use what they get given without thinking about it.

hoggy

02 Jul 2012, 20:50

I'd say that's a bit simplistic. The design of the product should take use into account. If people use it wrong then that is probably a design flaw.

pondscum

02 Jul 2012, 21:09

What, you're / the whole world is willing to pay for fully adjustable pack-ins?

hoggy

02 Jul 2012, 23:00

Okay, I was being a bit negative. I fully agree with you on the switching up and it's a great shame that the idea isn't promoted more - both by employers (who don't want to buy 3 or 4 mice per employee) and by manufacturers (who will mostly try to convince you that their product is the only one you'll need).

What I was trying to get at (and didn't do a good job looking back at it) is that if there's a good/healthy way of using the product, and an unhealthy way of using it, then I feel the designer should do what they can to the minimise the unhealthy use. Keyboards make a good example here - I typed while resting my wrists on my desk for years - design options to prevent this include a wrist rest (not really my thing) or by tilting the keyboard away from me (so the front is higher than the back), forcing me into a better position.

Perhaps the real problem is business. There are some great designers out there who could make a better keyboard, it's just that businesses don't want to follow in the footsteps of so many 'failed' products from the early nineties that are the ergonomic superiors of so many boards today.

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webwit
Wild Duck

02 Jul 2012, 23:14

Multiple wrote:That seems like a juvenile shit advice to me, but allow me to explain why;
Cured mouse problems for me. I'm convinced that most ergonomic mice are placebos, which actually tend to work because of an introduced side effect: variation. Variation is not only a valid cure against RSI - it is taking the problem at its roots. But sticking at one solution will probably not work. I like to switch sides. It's just as effective as getting a new, expensive device, and it's free. Works for me because I'm not a gamer, and ctrl_c/v isn't a problem (on the right side too, you move your hand from and to the keyboard). Also there's Shift+Ins and stuff. The biggest problem I found to be finding symmetrical mice of acceptable quality.

pondscum

03 Jul 2012, 22:44

hoggy wrote:Okay, I was being a bit negative. I fully agree with you on the switching up and it's a great shame that the idea isn't promoted more - both by employers (who don't want to buy 3 or 4 mice per employee) and by manufacturers (who will mostly try to convince you that their product is the only one you'll need).

What I was trying to get at (and didn't do a good job looking back at it) is that if there's a good/healthy way of using the product, and an unhealthy way of using it, then I feel the designer should do what they can to the minimise the unhealthy use. Keyboards make a good example here - I typed while resting my wrists on my desk for years - design options to prevent this include a wrist rest (not really my thing) or by tilting the keyboard away from me (so the front is higher than the back), forcing me into a better position.

Perhaps the real problem is business. There are some great designers out there who could make a better keyboard, it's just that businesses don't want to follow in the footsteps of so many 'failed' products from the early nineties that are the ergonomic superiors of so many boards today.
Like the ergonomically irrelevant (in terms of being called ergonomic) Topre / Filco / Leopold / Noppoo / every other keyboard you guys worship on this forum? :twisted:

hoggy

03 Jul 2012, 23:51

Sorry, was that aimed at me?

Okita

06 Jul 2012, 19:04

I've never had problems with my index finger but with carpal tunnel and ulver nerve entrapment. Both were caused by using mice that were too narrow and/or with switches that were too hard to press.

I went through about 10 mice and found that the CM Storm Spawn (or Xornet, they share the same shell) was the best mouse for me in addressing these symptoms. It's short allowing for great vertical movement and comfortably wide with a groove for your ring finger to rest on. It uses omron switches which are easy to press and have a short travel distance, allowing your entire hand to remain relaxed while clicking. My only qualm about this mouse is that it has poor thumb support compared to something like a Logitech G700.

In addition to an ergonomic office setup, I've also found that varying mice is great for preventing RSI so long as your alternative mice are not contributing to the problem.

<3 Okita

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