Futaba MA (MX variant) still in production for Korean arcade buttons

rymut

18 Oct 2017, 15:34

Recently I bought some Samducksa Crown SDB-201 Screw In Arcade Buttons that uses some kind of Futaba switches.
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Crown SDB-201 Arcade Button
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I thought that it uses a dedicated switch like Sanwa and Seimitsu, or uses Futaba mechanism inside dedicated mold (some Chinese arcade button knockoffs uses ALPS-clone switches with different mold).
When I opened the button I was surprised to find out that it uses Futaba MA with MX mount variant steam, since I recently bought OBS-MX arcade button mod (with uses original cherry mx keyboard switches)
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Button can be easily disassembled and Futaba MA (MX plate mount variant) can be extracted from the arcade button.
It is easy way (but costly one) to get the new replacement for Futaba MA keyboard.
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Crown SDB-201 Arcade Button
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Attachments
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futaba 23
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Daniel Beardsmore

18 Oct 2017, 22:33

Thanks for the heads up — I'll pick up a couple of those, and I'll definitely follow up with the manufacturer. Those switches have a 5 M lifetime apparently, rather than 50 M in the spec I found, or 10 M in the Sejin keyboard manual I found.

You can see here that both keycap mounts were used, which makes me wonder if they're using up a load of old stock:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/ ... ussion/p55

The Sanwa and Seimitsu buttons use those laws of physics–defying switches, including Tokai MM9 series and the equivalent Hori and Sanwa parts. They're still discrete switches, but none of them are the keyboard type. MM9 is the only series presently known to have solder terminals suitable for putting into a keyboard PCB.

rymut

18 Oct 2017, 23:41

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: You can see here that both keycap mounts were used, which makes me wonder if they're using up a load of old stock
That might be the case Seimitsu LS-32 joystick was updated this year (2017) to Seimitsu LS-32 2017 or LS-300.
Change was due to switching switches from Panasonic AM51662C5N (discontinued on March 31, 2015) to Omron V series button.

It took almost 2 years for Seimitsu to use old stock of the switches, so Crown buttons being in smaller demand might be trying to use up old stock of Futaba.
Last edited by rymut on 19 Oct 2017, 00:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Daniel Beardsmore

19 Oct 2017, 00:01

I bought a couple of brand new arcade buttons with Omron B2R-G1 switches in, but B2R is long since obsolete. The same is possibly true of MA series. With any luck, we will find out.

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Daniel Beardsmore

23 Oct 2017, 22:23

OK, so I think they've bought up all the old switches — I got something very interesting!
Futaba MA.jpg
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One switch came with Futaba mount grey, and the other came with MX mount white. Neither switch is clicky, and they feel around the same weight. (I've yet to figure out how to get the silly things apart — moar force I suppose.)

The switches are not linear either. There's very little tactility on the downstroke (and a very faint click from the grey switch) but upon release, the white gives a sharp kick just above full travel.

From what I can tell (looking at the internals of the alternate action version), the linear versions also have an inverting leaf, but the click version seems to have an extra spring for more sound. Assembled, you'd never guess that these are tactile at all.

So these seem to be MA42 linear versions. No reply yet from Samducksa but I will persevere!

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Daniel Beardsmore

23 Oct 2017, 22:26

*sigh*

Do NOT press in the wings of the MA switch — both mine on my grey switch are now snapped completely off. I'll have to buy another blue button now and hope I get another grey one :(

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Daniel Beardsmore

23 Oct 2017, 22:50

OK, so, to remove the Futaba switch, turn the button body upside down, place the adapter module upside down over the square hole, and insert a narrow implement into the bottom of the adapter module and push down hard. The Futaba switch will come out cleanly. Or may do.

The grey one is definitely meant to click, so I guess it's another example of the switches losing their click even from complete disuse:
Futaba MA41 grey.jpg
Futaba MA41 grey.jpg (169.69 KiB) Viewed 2658 times
I still need to buy another one anyway, and if I get another white one I'll open that up. Opening one up just involves slicing off the top of the "rivet" with a sharp knife and then levering the switch apart.

Engicoder

24 Oct 2017, 04:17

This is quite interesting. The clicky Futaba's I have all exhibit the same characteristic of making little sound on the down stroke and a loud click on the upstroke. My assumption was that noise on the down stroke is somehow dampened by contact with the bottom of the switch. I haven't noticed that any of the switches on the 3 keyboards I have have lost their click, although the click of some switches are definitely stronger than others. I wonder if they could have changed the type of metal or heat treatment used to eliminate the sudden buckling effect and have only spring action.

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Daniel Beardsmore

24 Oct 2017, 09:34

I've ordered four more: one blue and one grey (hopefully I'll get the same two switches again) plus a purple and a green, to see what they bring. If I get another white one like I have now, I'll open that up and see if it's linear inside or whether it's clicky but the clicker is broken.

What's confusing is that my grey one lost out on a head-to-head press test with white. Grey is supposed to be the heavier space bar switch, and it seems to be lighter. Considering that both were used in the same model of arcade button, you'd expect all the Futaba switches to be the same spec, so it seems that there are grey switches that are deliberately standard weight (and the spring looks like the one in a standard switch too). I have a load of spare, used switches and I can open up one of those to compare it.

According to Scarface's page on his Leading Edge AK-1012:

White:
"It is a click type and the key press weight is 65g and the tactile point is 60g."

Grey:
"It is also a click type, and the key pressing weight is 70g and tactile point is 60g."

I'm not sure what he means here, but the suggestion is that the inverting spring is identical, but that the coil spring is marginally heavier. That would also open the possibility of a head-to-head press test going either way.

I guess maybe the difference is fairly low, and if my switches are in bad shape, the difference may not be noticeable. The only specification I have is:

Operating force: 60±25 gf, 80±25 gf

As for the mechanics of the click, I really need to get my hands on a certified MA42 or MA72 switch, the type that the specification implies is linear. There are pictures on the wiki of the alternate action version, and I can't work out how that works — it's got some flat metal plate instead of the inverting spring, but the coil spring fits onto/presses on something else in its centre, and I can't determine what that is.

Without part numbers etc, I don't know what mine were intended to be in the factory.

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Daniel Beardsmore

26 Oct 2017, 23:55

I now have: 1 grey Futaba mount (dismantled), 4 white Cherry MX mount (all linear-ish), 1 white Futaba mount (clicky).

Apparently these buttons come with four different switches, so I guess there's also grey Cherry MX mount. The supplier or manufacturer has recommended that Arcade World UK return them all for replacement with parts all using the same switch, which isn't actually the point, as it's the condition that's the real difference. However, before they do this (and I've suggested they may not want to) they're going to see if they can pick out the types I need more of.

If anyone else wants any (£3.48 with tax) let me know ASAP and I'll get them to check for a few more. They're not cheap and condition of them is poor but the grey types are pretty rare.

rymut

27 Oct 2017, 17:43

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: If anyone else wants any (£3.48 with tax) let me know ASAP and I'll get them to check for a few more. They're not cheap and condition of them is poor but the grey types are pretty rare.
You might consider buying them from from https://www.focusattack.com ($3.5 with tax per switch), shipping cost is similar to AKUW store.

Edit: It might be almost the same cost after adding 5% discount on £50 order and 10% discount on £100 order (but tax will be added as if paying full price for the button).

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Daniel Beardsmore

08 Nov 2017, 19:40

Well, it turns out that I got (and immediately broke!) the only grey switch in Arcade World UK's stock!! I don't mind taking it apart as much as not being able to photograph it, which is now too late.

I've contacted Focus Attack to see if they can help, just in case they have some of the grey switches.

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purdobol

09 Nov 2017, 20:26

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: What's confusing is that my grey one lost out on a head-to-head press test with white. Grey is supposed to be the heavier space bar switch, and it seems to be lighter. Considering that both were used in the same model of arcade button, you'd expect all the Futaba switches to be the same spec, so it seems that there are grey switches that are deliberately standard weight (and the spring looks like the one in a standard switch too). I have a load of spare, used switches and I can open up one of those to compare it.

According to Scarface's page on his Leading Edge AK-1012:

White:
"It is a click type and the key press weight is 65g and the tactile point is 60g."

Grey:
"It is also a click type, and the key pressing weight is 70g and tactile point is 60g."

I'm not sure what he means here, but the suggestion is that the inverting spring is identical, but that the coil spring is marginally heavier. That would also open the possibility of a head-to-head press test going either way.
Sejin EAT-1010MA2

Cyan:
Tactile point 65g. Actuation and full bottom out 70g. Tested with multiple switches (whole board has cyan futabas except spacebar) so it should be pretty accurate.

Grey:
Tactile point 65g. Actuation 70g. Full bottom out 75g. Which does indicate a wee bit heavier spring on the grey switch. Have only one of those though, so I think it needs confimation from somebody else.

Both are the clicky type.

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Daniel Beardsmore

09 Nov 2017, 20:31

"whole board has cyan futabas except spacebar" …

Image

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purdobol

09 Nov 2017, 20:47

Yeah :P
Quick potato pics. Caps got bath today.
Image
Image
Image

I can take photo of the grey switch if it's needed for the wiki. Tommorow though, need sunlight...

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Daniel Beardsmore

09 Nov 2017, 23:21

I don't know if I've ever seen that before. No other mention of EAT-1010MA2 on Google.

As for the grey switch, if you only have one, and ScarFace only has one, that's not enough data. These wretched things vary so much that we need far more of them to be certain. Mine are all unused parts and they still have drastic variation that would surely be totally unacceptable for new switches.

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purdobol

10 Nov 2017, 11:18

Since you have opened loose switches. Can you measure the diameter of those plastic "legs" and total length from plastic "rivet" to the bottom of closed switch?
Was thinking about cutting those rivets, snaping legs and drilling tiny holes. And replace all of this with some watch or glass screws for easy assembly/disassembly.

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Phenix
-p

10 Nov 2017, 15:33

I want to hack a trackball into a Kinesis advantage soon.
Does someone want to recommend me switches? Intented for mounting a plastic case - afaik screw in is best..

Heard quite some good about Gamerfingers - alternatives?

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Daniel Beardsmore

10 Nov 2017, 23:06

purdobol wrote: Since you have opened loose switches. Can you measure the diameter of those plastic "legs" and total length from plastic "rivet" to the bottom of closed switch?
The legs are around 1.2 mm diameter. Not counting the rivet head, the height of the switch from where the rivet goes, down to the exterior bottom of a closed switch, is around 6.7 mm.

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purdobol

11 Nov 2017, 10:42

Thanks for taking time to measure this.
Appreciated

rymut

13 Nov 2017, 11:39

Phenix wrote: I want to hack a trackball into a Kinesis advantage soon.
Does someone want to recommend me switches? Intented for mounting a plastic case - afaik screw in is best..

Heard quite some good about Gamerfingers - alternatives?
You might wanna check out Paradise Arcade OBS-MX mod for sanwa: https://paradisearcadeshop.com/755-obs-mx-button-system, just buy the set and solder on preferred switch with mx mount.

Delivery price to EU from their site is quite steep (I have additional 18 OBS-MX mods and caps for exchange with people during tournaments).

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Daniel Beardsmore

13 Nov 2017, 21:45

Well, it seems that was the only SDB-201 button with a grey Futaba switch …

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Phenix
-p

13 Nov 2017, 21:55

rymut wrote:
Phenix wrote: I want to hack a trackball into a Kinesis advantage soon.
Does someone want to recommend me switches? Intented for mounting a plastic case - afaik screw in is best..

Heard quite some good about Gamerfingers - alternatives?
You might wanna check out Paradise Arcade OBS-MX mod for sanwa: https://paradisearcadeshop.com/755-obs-mx-button-system, just buy the set and solder on preferred switch with mx mount.

Delivery price to EU from their site is quite steep (I have additional 18 OBS-MX mods and caps for exchange with people during tournaments).
Thanks.
I never got into the (arcade) gaming scene - the prices look steep at the first glance, even conpared zealenciod Zealios for feelios :lol:

For now I will evaluate if I’m going the Trackball-Kinesis route or if I can live with a trackpad.

(I got a Magic Trackpad and a ShuttleXpress in today, may I can live with the trackpad - that’s less effort for me..)
Will order arcade buttons from a local shop if needed - buying from China isn’t that much cheaper (or I’m looking st the wrong places, beside aliexpress.. seimigster ps-14 eG). Will also think about if I want to go MX gamerfinger or standard arcade- OBFs seem (I don’t have any sanwa buttons) a more worse deal than the gamerfingers..?

rymut

16 Nov 2017, 12:50

Phenix wrote: Will also think about if I want to go MX gamerfinger or standard arcade- OBFs seem (I don’t have any sanwa buttons) a more worse deal than the gamerfingers..?
Gamefingers are practically impossible to get, as for the buttons there is always an alternative: get old PS/2 mechanical keyboard and make an pass-through from PS/2 to Hori Mini 4 PCB and you're good to go (or get usb mini host shield for arduino and do the same with usb keyboard, or directly rewire the board to the arcade controller board).

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Phenix
-p

16 Nov 2017, 13:06

rymut wrote:
Phenix wrote: Will also think about if I want to go MX gamerfinger or standard arcade- OBFs seem (I don’t have any sanwa buttons) a more worse deal than the gamerfingers..?
Gamefingers are practically impossible to get, as for the buttons there is always an alternative: get old PS/2 mechanical keyboard and make an pass-through from PS/2 to Hori Mini 4 PCB and you're good to go (or get usb mini host shield for arduino and do the same with usb keyboard, or directly rewire the board to the arcade controller board).
Wiring isn’t going to be a issue - I intent to wire the buttons in a way that they replace the buttons on my slimblade trackball (which will be slaughtered and case-mounted)

nivloM droL

17 Nov 2017, 07:22

I would be interested... PM please.

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Daniel Beardsmore

17 Nov 2017, 09:23

Interested in what?

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

17 Nov 2017, 15:31

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: Interested in what?
In trolling, obviously: search.php?author_id=14152&sr=posts

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