Cherry Pre-MX Research Thread

User avatar
graboy

19 Jan 2013, 21:17

Hi everyone, I'm trying to gather some information on pre-MX switches and keycaps made by Cherry. I have created a page on the M81 switch and am working on a page for the M84 switch right now. I'd like to gather sightings, datasheets, and other information on this page. Below is a spoiler of all of the data I have been able to find over the last few days.
Spoiler:
http://www.greendich.com.tw/products/cherry/M81.pdf
http://www.greendich.com.tw/products/cherry/M84.pdf
M81 and M84 datasheets, thanks to Ripster's archived wiki

http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/old_cherry_mx.html - Cherry M7 with tilted stem

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... -t720.html - Cherry M8 with red leds, 6mm keycaps

http://deskthority.net/w/images/6/6c/Catalogue_1982.pdf - 1982 Catalog, uploaded by Dirge, by far the most useful document yet

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4Wyz4 ... S1DX3h1d3M - 1973 Catalog, uploaded by HaaTa, includes M6 part numbers/diagrams on pg 19-20

http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8 ... t2187.html Sixty's post on cherry M8, includes various keycap profiles

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/hc20.htm
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... -t720.html
Some other M8 sightings, there is also a few relevant boards on HaaTa's website, but I'm not really sure how to link to them...

Daniel Beadsmore's Cherry M8 switch manuals, located on the second post on this thread.
Here's a few questions that have not yet been answered, along with that a lot of information summarizing these links above.
Spoiler:
1.) Some cherry M8 diagrams include a T-shaped switch, while others show the M8 using a cross shaped stem. In the 1982 catalog, it lists switches with T mounts ( T ), bar mounts ( | ), and cross mounts ( + ). The problem with this is that the catalog does not distinguish between T mounts and cross mounts, labeling T/Cross mounts for use with 6mm caps, and bar mounts for 12 mm caps.
If I lost you anywhere in there, all I'm really saying is that we don't know which models use T stems and which use cross stems, or even if these T-stems exist.

Stem type is defined by M81-0x00 , where x is 1,3,5,6 or 7, depending on stem type. More details in M8 guide.


2.) Another variation in the shape of the keys is the shape of the plastic inside of them. Switches with LEDs are missing a small piece of plastic that (supposedly) stabilized the switch more.

For example, compare this... (From HaaTa's website)
To this... (Grond)
or this... (Ascii)
Oddly, Ascii's numerikeys numpad has LED holes, but does not have an LED. I don't know which models have the hole for the LED and which ones don't.

Update: There appears to be no value that can allow for ordering of empty LED-holes in M8 switches. My thought is that Cherry must have revised their design at some point to have better performance switches where LEDs were not required. The only way that this can be confirmed is by looking at a large quantity of keyboards with this switch aswell as the years they were made and see if there is a common date where they switch over.

3.)I mentioned earlier that there were two types of cherry keycaps at that time, 6mm and 12mm. From what I can tell, 12mm keycaps generally were used on bar-mount switches, and I think that these keycaps had a cross mount on the inside, even though the bar mount only used 2 out of the 4 pegs. 6mm keycaps also used cross mounts, and used cross-mount switches, and possibly T mount switches. However, different switches were used for 6mm keycaps, as the depth of the mount on the inside of the 6mm keycap was less than it is on the 12mm keycap. It appears to be that these MX switches with the converter stems as seen here were the version of Cherry MX for the 6mm keycaps, where modern MX switches have stems that would be compatible with the vintage 12mm keycaps. I am curious if GMK produced these 6mm / 12mm keycaps, or if it was cherry themselves.

Update: I'm still a little confused about the different profiles, I don't quite understand them yet, but that's just because I haven't really looked into them much.

4.) The difference between M81, M84, and what ever other variants existed was the contact material used in the switch. For example, M81s used "AuAg 26N:3" contacts. I'm not sure on what exactly this means, but I would guess that it is the ratio of gold to silver in the alloy. We also have no leads onto what other versions of M8 existed.

Variants included M81, M83, M84, and M85

5.) We have much more information on Cherry M7. The 1982 guide really has given us everything we need to know. I don't have too much evidence to support this, but earlier switches such as M6 (whose product numbers are listed in the 1973 catalog) visually appear to be very similar to M7 judging from their drawings. I would guess that M6 is just an earlier version of M7, and this can be confirmed by finding a Cherry M7 switch on a board produced before 1973. In which case that switch isn't a M7, but is really a M6, since Cherry didn't have M7 listed in their catalog in 1973.

Update: Looking at the surplus of useful information we now have from the cherry M8 guide, I now realize there must also be an equally useful amount of information we can gain by finding a M7 guide.
Any information, pictures, documents, etc. that you post here I will update this post with to keep everything in one place.
Last edited by graboy on 20 Jan 2013, 02:51, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

19 Jan 2013, 21:44

Sixty's caps here are 6 mm for M8:

http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8 ... t2187.html

yab8433408's caps are 8 mm MX. In sixty's photo "Comparison of all Cherry keycap profiles.", from left to right, it's 12 mm (M8/M7), 8 mm (MX), 6 mm (M8). The left-hand one looks to be MX, but it's not: Cherry caps are of course significantly shorter than Costar caps!

I'm always wary about copyright with regards to the wiki. I've instead attached here two copies of the full M8 brochure. The colour one, I was sent directly from ZF. The pictures are a lot clearer. However, you can't read some of the specs, so I've attached the higher resolution black and white copy. There are brief details about 6 mm vs 12 mm, bar mount vs cross mount etc.

In terms of the M8 mount, Ed Ferraton at ZF confirmed that while the keycaps have a square cross slot, the side arms of the stem are truncated on some of the switches. The different m

I came across something odd the other day:

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/2 ... -%203-496/

The miserable gits at Electronic Surplus refuse to acknowledge anything you write to them, which makes me wary about buying anything from them. As such, no use wasting my time trying to figure out why they have conflicting photos of that switch. And their part number is definitely not a Cherry one. Either way, it's not a design I recognise from anywhere else.

They do read e-mail: they heeded my correction (they had an SMK latching lock switch down as "SHK"), but I did hope I could use their photos of the SMK switch on the wiki. I am still considering buying some of the switches just to take photos, but I don't like dealing with companies who ignore potential customers.

One other thing — this page: [wiki]Blaupunkt CEPT-Btx-C1 Keyboard[/wiki]

He has the switches down as "Cherry_Switch(Other)", which redirects to Cherry M7. I would expect more proof of this.

I never got around to writing all this up — if you're on this one, then I can close a fair few browser tabs and PDF viewer tabs!
Attachments
M82E-1500.pdf
Black and white version I found somewhere
(949.91 KiB) Downloaded 207 times
M8 keymodule2.pdf
Colour M8 documentation I obtained from ZF
(2.21 MiB) Downloaded 214 times

User avatar
graboy

20 Jan 2013, 02:07

Holy crap, I'm so happy you're a part of this community. :D
I'm going to add this to the OP, then start integrating all of this into the wiki. I was on Electronic Surplus the other day looking for cherry switches, I don't know how I missed that one. Thank you for the help!

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

20 Jan 2013, 02:14

For that Cherry switch, the funny one in the third pic is wrong — it's a variant of the "ASM MEXICO" switch:

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/1 ... -%203-285/

User avatar
graboy

20 Jan 2013, 02:58

Updated the OP, I might work on the wiki tonight, but I've been pretty busy getting some stuff set up recently. Will certainly work on it tomorrow, though.

User avatar
HaaTa
Master Kiibohd Hunter

03 Feb 2013, 07:23

I purchased some of those Cherry switches from Electronics Surplus a while back.

Image
Image

I think I have them in an "easy" to access place. I can attempt a dismantle if there is interest still.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

03 Feb 2013, 15:10

I bought those too. So far it looks like the only way to open one is using a hacksaw!

From the catalogues, it appears to be either an M73 or M74 (M7 family) or an M61 (unnamed "M6" family). M6 and M7 use similar if not the same internals. I'll leave the OP with the fun of figuring out what changed between M6 and M7 :)

Here's one that's not in the catalogues:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=28549.0

mintberryminuscrunch

03 Feb 2013, 16:17

Spoiler:
Image
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Image
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

03 Feb 2013, 18:52

Another one that's not in the catalogues ;-)

User avatar
graboy

04 Feb 2013, 02:19

Learning about these was a little easier than I expected, along with it came a ton of other information that I'm excited about. Hirose (or HST) started as a distributor for Cherry in 1968, then quickly transitioned into Cherry switch and keyboard production in 1974. Cherry MX switches were first produced in 1983. Take a look: http://www.hirose-st.co.jp/en/e_aboutus/enkaku.htm


EDIT: Btw, thanks for the pics, mintberryminuscrunch!

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

04 Feb 2013, 02:31

Hm ... so do you think that Hirose simply made a different version of the M8 switch, then, with the more complicated slider?

User avatar
graboy

04 Feb 2013, 04:04

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Hm ... so do you think that Hirose simply made a different version of the M8 switch, then, with the more complicated slider?
That would be my guess. Right now I'm finding that there's an overwhelming number of M7 switches, I've looked at 5 different sightings of them and none of them are the same. Some of them could have been made by Hirose, some of them by Cherry, I have no idea. I'd like to point out that there is a difference between Hirose and Hirose Cherry, where Hirose Cherry is the joint venture of the two businesses. This is Hirose Cherry's website, and This is Hirose's website. Very confusing... :?

User avatar
HaaTa
Master Kiibohd Hunter

04 Feb 2013, 04:29

Hirose itself is a large company (nearly 4000 employees), so it sorta makes sense that they have a number of "sub-companies". And that making a sub-company for a joint venture probably made sense, and have their own management structure altogether.
And most likely, Hirose Cherry was probably left to do whatever they saw fit to make things work (i.e. had their own engineers). Japan is a bit far from any Cherry development office (Germany? or even the US?). So during the 80's it would make sense if there were some differences in designs.

Now this is mostly conjecture on my part...but whatever.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

07 Feb 2013, 00:14

I don't have a saw, so I took the lonely nerd route and just hand-drilled an Electronic Surplus M6/M7 full of holes until the base flew off. (I should have just drilled into the base in the first place.)
Cherry M6 or M7 Drilled to Death.jpg
Cherry M6 or M7 Drilled to Death.jpg (178.57 KiB) Viewed 13310 times
To avoid drilling, just wrap the switch in a cloth for grip, hold the thick leg with pliers, and pull the base off via the leg. It comes off relatively easily, but in the process you destroy whatever it is that made the base stay on in the first place. The switch will never go back together again.

What's interesting is that the one I have is a distinctly different design to the "[wiki]Cherry M7[/wiki]"on the wiki — the static contact plate is a totally different shape. Since the catalogues suggest that M6 and M7 are pretty similar visually, it's hard to say whether each one is an M6, or an M7. Or maybe M5 or M2 for all I know (no idea what came before M6).

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

07 Feb 2013, 23:35

Just came across this: http://imgur.com/a/t4Smx

"After assembly, the switch was ultrasonically welded together"

I wonder if that's what the M6/M7 is?

User avatar
graboy

10 Feb 2013, 15:22

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: "After assembly, the switch was ultrasonically welded together"

I wonder if that's what the M6/M7 is?
It seems that those switches were made by Datanetics, not Cherry. I didn't look into it too much, but I don't think there's too many other keyboards out there with Datanetics' switches... other than the Apple I.

Maybe someone can shell out $375,000 for an Apple I for the keyboard. Any takers? ;)

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

10 Feb 2013, 15:26

I meant, I wonder whether Cherry did the same ultrasonic welding. When I drilled the last hole, the switch flew apart. It's like I went through a single welded spot that secured the base on. (By pure luck maybe; I could try drilling some more, if it matters.)

Mousefan has a photo of a laser welded Futaba, but you can see the melt line along the side of the switch.

User avatar
E TwentyNine

10 Feb 2013, 16:47

Is this KXN5-C251 of any use for your research? Late 80's, I have no idea what the switch is, not very familiar with Cherry hardware.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

10 Feb 2013, 16:51

That's [wiki]Cherry MX Black[/wiki] (← link) — probably the vintage type that people find to be smoother than modern ones. Possibly the longest-running switch on Earth, having been in continuous production since 1984! (It's the oldest MX type, apparently, before Cherry added a clicker to their switches; all pre-MX switches that we know of, are linear.)

rodtang

10 Feb 2013, 16:57

This one is probably more useful:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160970517530

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

16 Feb 2013, 16:18

Closed, seemingly unbranded M8s:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... tml#p98943

Newer M7-style switch:

http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/old_cherry_mx.html
  • Modern Cherry branding
  • Subtly different static contact plate compared to the M7 on the wiki
  • Completely redesigned plate retention clips
  • Black, white and blue stems
I'll check with ZF about the M6/M7, but I won't hear back until Monday at the earliest.

(I've also asked the bloke at ZF how they sealed these switches.)

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

18 Feb 2013, 20:17

ZF/Cherry are a no-go. No-one left working there who has any idea about M6 or M7, and all the records are gone :(

So it's down to detective work for the old switches.

User avatar
graboy

20 Feb 2013, 03:12

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:ZF/Cherry are a no-go. No-one left working there who has any idea about M6 or M7, and all the records are gone :(

So it's down to detective work for the old switches.
I wonder if Hirose-Cherry knows anything. Communication might be more of an issue though, as I think they're based in Japan.

User avatar
graboy

22 Feb 2013, 22:44

Got something extra with my switch order in the mail today... I'll make a video of the switch mechanisms once I get a better potato. Thanks again, Mint!
Attachments
IMG_0151.JPG
IMG_0151.JPG (241.23 KiB) Viewed 13085 times

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

01 Mar 2013, 01:15

Will upload all of today's Cherry pics to the wiki later — spent all evening just photographing them. (I wasn't going to touch Cherry any further, but I specifically bought these switches for the sole purpose of analysing them.)

Black bar mount Cherry Msomething fully disassembled:
Cherry Msomething.jpg
Cherry Msomething.jpg (271.33 KiB) Viewed 13020 times
Grey cross mount Cherry M7 fully disassembled:
Cherry M7.jpg
Cherry M7.jpg (265.38 KiB) Viewed 13020 times
Comparison shot of the contact mechanisms:
Msomething vs M7.jpg
Msomething vs M7.jpg (269.42 KiB) Viewed 13020 times
I got a couple of spare grey ones from ped, which meant I could sacrifice 2/3 of my greys to research!

The question is: what are the black ones? Are M6 and M7 in any way different? I don't know what to upload the black ones to the wiki as — M7? M6? I can't use "Mx" as that would be confusing ;-) Mn? Msomething?

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

03 Mar 2013, 02:53

I am provisionally considering the black ones from Electronic Surplus to be M6:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_M6

More pics tomorrow, maybe. Not sure whether I'll put the comparison shots under M6 or M7.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

03 Mar 2013, 20:11

OK, I'm done with M6/M7 now. [wiki]Cherry M7[/wiki] — I've posted the M6 vs M7 comparison shots, detailed photos of my M7 (which I'm terming "first generation") and Sandy's photos of his newer M7 (which I'm terming "second generation" due to the improved mouldings etc).

I will ask Sandy why his Sagem keyboard has black, white and blue stems in his M7s:

http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/old_cherry_mx.html

If he has any information to offer, I will post it here. I don't know if he still has this keyboard.

Parak

04 Mar 2013, 13:42

So I posted it before, but I happen to have this thing if there's any interest in the switches:

http://imgur.com/a/JGEOB

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

04 Mar 2013, 18:06

But as I said before, do you have photos from different angles etc? I don't recognise the switch, so the more angles we can see it from, the better, as it may help tie it to something in a catalogue. (Front, back, side, pin arrangement etc.)

I doubt that you'd want to desolder and open one up, though :-)

Parak

05 Mar 2013, 04:54

Oh, I guess I conveniently forgot/skipped it. I can easily desolder and see if it can be opened, though this might not be possible due to the plate. I'll try and see if I can do that over the weekend as I need to get a bunch of other unrelated soldering done too.

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