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"UNIX layout"?

Posted: 23 Mar 2014, 16:07
by Daniel Beardsmore
See [wiki]Unix layout[/wiki].

There are no references for this description, so I can't tell how much leeway there is. For example, does this keyboard count? (I've not linked/categorised it with Unix layout yet.)_

[wiki]Filco FKB-101EB[/wiki]

I don't know if "Unix layout" is an exact standard, or just a suggestion of what might be changed.

Posted: 23 Mar 2014, 16:34
by wheybags
I would say anything with control left of a, don't think it's well defined

Posted: 23 Mar 2014, 20:01
by Findecanor
There is no clear definition. It is more like a convention, like "Monterey switch".

Posted: 23 Mar 2014, 22:58
by Daniel Beardsmore
I haven't got a clue what "Unix layout" is. The description as it stands is very exacting, but doesn't appear to hold true even for the keyboards currently categorised as having Unix layout. Obviously this makes it hard for anyone to add pages to the category.

"Monterey" refers to a very specific product. That's very different from a "convention" that doesn't even fit its own examples.

The page needs to be rewritten to state what a Unix keyboard must have (otherwise the term is useless), and suggest what else you might find. Alternatively, opt for a "must have at least 2 of .........".

Posted: 23 Mar 2014, 23:07
by woody
I don't think there is "UNIX" layout. Perhaps the term was coined back at GH by some fans of a certain Sun keyboard.

Posted: 23 Mar 2014, 23:53
by webwit
It's just a loose term for keyboards with some Unix/Linux specific features or features which originated on Unix/SunOS keyboards, such as the Control location.
Maybe related:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050131171 ... ux101.html
On one hand the naming and category was kinda arbitrary, it's from the beginning of the wiki when someone added some categories to see if it would work. Could maybe use some refactoring. On the other hand, if you are looking for a keyboard with Control at this location, this could be handy.

Posted: 24 Mar 2014, 00:05
by Daniel Beardsmore
Nobody who knows enough to correct it, ever will.

Posted: 24 Mar 2014, 00:35
by webwit
Apparently you haven't seen my edit history in 2012 when I had an itch, for which I installed the Replace plugin. Who knows, maybe in the future I'll get an itch again.

Posted: 24 Mar 2014, 01:10
by Daniel Beardsmore
I need a Dutch vendor of itching powder …

Posted: 08 Apr 2014, 20:49
by 7bit
Daniel Beardsmore wrote:See [wiki]Unix layout[/wiki].

There are no references for this description, so I can't tell how much leeway there is. For example, does this keyboard count? (I've not linked/categorised it with Unix layout yet.)_

[wiki]Filco FKB-101EB[/wiki]

I don't know if "Unix layout" is an exact standard, or just a suggestion of what might be changed.
There is no photo in the article which shows the layout, so can't tell anything about it.

However, there exist some keys which are typical for the Unix world and others which are typical for mainframe or whatever.

G80-1306 or keyboards for VT100 etc are typical for Unix machines. Sun keyboards.
Image
Help, Compose, Find, Select are typical. Some keyboards have an extensive choice of delete keys, like delete line and delete word etc.
Here is another one:
Image


edit: Just saw the photo of the rear sticker: A Unix keyboard might be everything, except a keyboard with a Windows key.
:mad:

Posted: 08 Apr 2014, 21:30
by Daniel Beardsmore
That was Strong Man's attention to detail, eh. There are no Windows keys on the Filco FKB-101EB.

Posted: 10 Apr 2014, 00:01
by rzwv
ALPS simple
KB-8861_1.jpg
KB-8861_1.jpg (238.93 KiB) Viewed 5269 times
KB-8861_2.jpg
KB-8861_2.jpg (372.03 KiB) Viewed 5269 times
KB-8861_4.jpg
KB-8861_4.jpg (457.38 KiB) Viewed 5269 times
KB-8861_5.jpg
KB-8861_5.jpg (280.69 KiB) Viewed 5269 times

Posted: 10 Apr 2014, 20:40
by Daniel
Are those infilled keycaps?

Posted: 11 Apr 2014, 00:12
by rzwv
Daniel wrote:Are those infilled keycaps?
It is an original keyboard. It was changed since the start.

Posted: 11 Apr 2014, 01:52
by Daniel Beardsmore
Daniel wrote:Are those infilled keycaps?
Laser plus black infill? Has anyone ever done that?

They look pad printed to me.

rzwv: thank you for the photos. I have been really busy with work lately — I will update the wiki another day.

Posted: 11 Apr 2014, 21:54
by rzwv
Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Laser plus black infill? Has anyone ever done that?

They look pad printed to me.

rzwv: thank you for the photos. I have been really busy with work lately — I will update the wiki another day.
It mistook. I'm sorry.
Since the details of the key-top were photoed, it adds.
The quotation to DT wiki is free.
Spoiler:
DSC_4204.jpg
DSC_4204.jpg (630.85 KiB) Viewed 5205 times

Posted: 11 Apr 2014, 22:19
by Daniel Beardsmore
Wait a minute …

KB-8861?

Posted: 11 Apr 2014, 22:21
by rzwv
Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Wait a minute …

KB-8861?
Yes. The same case was used, and since arrangement was also the same, the picture was published.

Posted: 12 Apr 2014, 17:33
by Daniel Beardsmore
I wonder then, what is the difference between KB-8851 and SMK-8861? I mean, SMK-8851 is used for at least completely different styles of keyboard. Also, Strong Man clearly can't decide whether to use "KB" or "SMK" in their model numbers!

Posted: 13 Apr 2014, 03:37
by rzwv
Daniel Beardsmore wrote:I wonder then, what is the difference between KB-8851 and SMK-8861? I mean, SMK-8851 is used for at least completely different styles of keyboard. Also, Strong Man clearly can't decide whether to use "KB" or "SMK" in their model numbers!
SMK=StrongManKeyboard

That is, KB-8851 is a name in alignment with FCC ID, and SMK-8861 is a name along the manufacturer.
It is not different only by a model name being different.
A name and contents are not necessarily in agreement.

To hereinafter, a reference grade.

FCC ID:KM988KKB8851 SMK-8851
Spoiler:
SMK-8851 ALPS Mount Clicky US104 AT https://web.archive.org/web/20050219025 ... index.html
SMK-8851 ALPS Mount White Clicky OADG109 http://page13.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/r75394959
Justy SMK-8851 Alps SKBM Grey OADG109 http://page7.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/g94928658
Justy SMK-8851 Alps SKBM Black OADG109 http://page9.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k138538397
SANWA SMK-8851 Alps SKBM Black 112-key http://park8.wakwak.com/~kaineko2/keybo ... 11114.html
FILCO FKB-109J BIG Alps SKBM Black OADG109 http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/KB8851.htm
FILCO FKB-109J-X 剣 Alps SKBM Black OADG109 http://st.cat-v.ne.jp/pgr/keyboard/kblist2.html
FILCO FKB-109J-II 隼 Alps SKBM Black http://wvvwww.blog130.fc2.com/blog-entry-24.html
※剣=Sword , 隼=Falcon
FCC ID:KM988KKB8851 SMK-8861
Spoiler:
FILCO FKB-101EKB US 101 Ctrl⇔CapsLock `⇔Esc http://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hot ... #fkb101ekb
FCC ID:unknown KB-8851
Spoiler:
KB-8851 US104key https://www.flickr.com/photos/auxo38/se ... 272963806/[/url]
Justy JKBM101EWH KB-8851 US 104 Ctrl⇔CapsLock `⇔Esc http://web.archive.org/web/200501200729 ... y0308.html
FCC ID:KM988KKB8861 KB-8861
Spoiler:
Atessa AKB-101EB KB-8861 Alps SKBM Black US 101key Ctrl⇔CapsLock `⇔Esc http://web.archive.org/web/200407231159 ... index.html
KB-8861 Cherry MX Blue US http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=12900062857
FCC ID:KE988KKB8851 Not SMK?
Spoiler:
Owltech OWL-ZG112P(BK) Clicky OADG 112 http://konozama.jp/amazon_devil/2010/07/post-145.html

Posted: 05 May 2014, 03:24
by Daniel Beardsmore
Many of those pages are to auction sites.

Auction pages get deleted. They may remain available for a few months, or even a year or two, but in time they are all deleted.

I cannot really use auction pages as wiki references for this reason.

Even photos on sites such as Imgur can disappear.

Posted: 05 May 2014, 11:07
by xwhatsit
UNIX layout sounds like a bit of a misnomer. Half of the time when you used to use a UNIX machine you'd be talking to it with some 3rd-party glass TTY, so who knows where the keys would be. I'm a vim user—the reason for the crazy keys is because of the ADM3A terminal, which had escape where you'd normally have tab, enter where you have backslash on an ANSI, `rub-out' where you'd normally have return and so forth.

UNIX keyboard layouts were all over the place. Meta keys were uncommon on nearly all glass TTYs, it was only really Sun and other much later stuff which dealt with X and graphics which went in for that.

About the only relatively consistent thing was some kind of control or similar on the left of the A key—often with shift-lock inbetween (the VTxxx terminals)—but that of course was common everywhere, IBM PC included (until the silly 101-key bastardisation after the perfection of the AT).

Posted: 06 May 2014, 07:10
by rzwv
Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Many of those pages are to auction sites.

Auction pages get deleted. They may remain available for a few months, or even a year or two, but in time they are all deleted.

I cannot really use auction pages as wiki references for this reason.

Even photos on sites such as Imgur can disappear.
The page of the auction was archived.

SMK-8851 ALPS Mount White Clicky OADG109 http://newboard.rzw.jp/yahoo/mekanikaru/r75394959/
Justy SMK-8851 Alps SKBM Grey OADG109 http://newboard.rzw.jp/yahoo/mekanikaru/g94928658/
Justy SMK-8851 Alps SKBM Black OADG109 http://newboard.rzw.jp/yahoo/mekanikaru/k138538397/

Posted: 31 May 2014, 23:11
by mikem
My definition of UNIX-layout corresponds to the Sun UNIX "country kit" keyboard (I have a couple in my possession) which basically comprises :-
  • Control to the left of A
  • Esc to the left of 1
  • Backspace on the 1.25 unit key to the right of ]
  • Compose key somewhere.
The VT-family terminal keyboards are actually pretty nasty for UNIX as the Esc key is to be found in a strange place (F3?) unless you re-map it in set up. Much preferred the Wyse terminal keyboards.

Posted: 24 Jan 2015, 22:43
by meta
I don't know if they were the first, but Sun Microsystems used the term "Unix layout" to differentiate this particular key layout from country-specific layouts such as "U.S." or "U.K." back in the early '90s, if not earlier. For the purposes of describing keyboard layouts, Sun made Unix its own country. (Never mind that all Sun workstations ran Unix, regardless of key layout).

If Sun didn't coin the term, they certainly popularized it.

Posted: 24 Jan 2015, 22:56
by Findecanor
I had a reference to a Sun document that named it "Unix Layout" added to the Wiki article a few months ago but the reference is from this century.
If you have a reference from the '90s, then please post it.

Posted: 25 Jan 2015, 01:04
by meta
Findecanor wrote: I had a reference to a Sun document that named it "Unix Layout" added to the Wiki article a few months ago but the reference is from this century.
If you have a reference from the '90s, then please post it.
Page 3-2 of the Sun SPARCclassic Service Manual Rev. A (November 1993) has a diagram showing the locations of the Caps Lock key on the "UNIX keyboard" and the "U.S. keyboard."


http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19127-01/spa ... 176-13.pdf

I suspect that Sun's use of "Unix" terminology started with the Type 5 keyboard. Old service documentation shows DIP settings for two U.S. layouts: "US" and "US/Unix," whereas the Type 4 only has one: "US."