wiki homepage (was: noob questions about the wiki)

matt3o · 07 Jul 2014, 13:33

I'm trying to put my head on the wiki and add some content. Generally speaking it's a system that I really dislike, but I'll give it some time, maybe I'll end up loving it.

First of all, why the DT wiki talk? Wouldn't be better to discuss directly on the wiki "talk" page?

Also, I believe we can have a better wiki homepage, I find it a bit... not-optimized as it is now. It is okay to post updates on that? Should we discuss first, should I post my suggestions on the wiki directly?

Thanks

002 · 07 Jul 2014, 15:36

I like the wiki talk subforum. It's a lot easier and don't have to worry about signatures, timestamps and formatting or not actually getting any views/responses. The talk pages on the wiki are barren wastelands and to post your question there would be risking it being overlooked.

Regarding the wiki home page, I think pretty much all wiki home pages are kinda pointless if your wiki is actually good/popular. I don't think I've ever been to wikipedia's home page...actually *now* I have because I wanted to know what it looked like

What would you do to improve the main page on the wiki?

matt3o · 07 Jul 2014, 16:00

since it's impossible to give a full overview of all wiki content on the homepage, maybe it is better to concentrate on fewer more important topics. Maybe with even a "pick of the day" or "random" if the software lets you.

I don't know, I haven't thought much about it yet, but I find the current homepage quite intimidating.

DanielT · 07 Jul 2014, 16:30

I agree with you matt3o, the home page should contain something appealing, like a start point. I implemented a few wiki servers mainly for work, as a common knowledge base and I always made on the home page a starting point, otherwise the users had a barren land feeling when hitting that place.
I even have a personal wiki at home where I have gathered all my "knowledge" and I can access it via OpenVPN, and even there I have a nice home page

matt3o · 07 Jul 2014, 16:36

DanielT wrote: ↑I even have a personal wiki at home where I have gathered all my "knowledge" and I can access it via OpenVPN, and even there I have a nice home page

this is actually a neat idea!

what I don't like (or maybe don't understand) is that if you want to change one page layout/structure you have to replicate the same change to all similar pages by hand. But I bet there must be a better way...

Muirium · 07 Jul 2014, 16:38

Welcome to Daniel: what would you like to remember today?

Tellingly, I implement my outboard brain as plaintext files in Notational Velocity. No browse. Only search.

I totally agree about the DT Wiki's landing page. I always go straight to search, of course. Maybe a nice big showcase of switch pictures (especially for the MX line, which is the Wiki's most popular content) and a few iconic keyboards just to give visual types a sense of direction… or hope!

webwit · 07 Jul 2014, 16:45

I disagree. The difference and strength of the homepage is that you can start to browse through categories, and don't get some random content as in most other wiki, where you can only find stuff by search. It should have a relatively small number of main categories, and list the top links of each in the box, with a link to 'More...' I find a 'Tip of the day' or 'Gallery of the week' kind of content on pages like that just adding to the noise. It's not like people will visit the page each day to get the tip of the day, so it's just some random content.

DanielT · 07 Jul 2014, 16:53

@matt3o:I never asked myself this question... mainly because I created all wiki's from scratch with my own style of formatting and structure. But it's something to think about, and it makes perfect sense.
I'll study on that

Usually I use search for wiki, but from time to time I want to drop on a page and see an intriguing photo or link that would make me click and discover something new, a moment like that is priceless.
So to answer Muirium : I would like to be remembered that at any time there is something new and interesting and amazing waiting to be discovered.

matt3o · 07 Jul 2014, 17:17

I'm not suggesting to make it just a bunch of random links. I would simply try to reorganize the current structure removing some on the links and adding some visuals.

Muirium · 07 Jul 2014, 17:25

Exactly. Right now it's at the same end of the continuum as a war memorial…

Walls of text have their place. Especially as special pages when browsing categories. But as the entrance?

Findecanor · 07 Jul 2014, 17:51

matt3o wrote: ↑First of all, why the DT wiki talk? Wouldn't be better to discuss directly on the wiki "talk" page?

The talk page is per article. The discussions on "DT Wiki Talk" are mostly about organisational issues that involve categories of articles.

Daniel Beardsmore · 07 Jul 2014, 19:19

Wiki talk sub-forum: talk pages on wiki articles don't generate notifications, so they're only of use to a) people who trawl [wiki]Special:RecentChanges[/wiki] (and I do), and b) people who have that page on their watchlist and have e-mail notifications enabled. Otherwise, if you write something on one, who's going to read it? (And yes, the MediaWiki talk system is rubbish.)

Wiki home page: agree wholeheartedly: it's intimidating and confusing. A lot of stuff has ended up on there that is utterly irrelevant to anyone browsing directly, e.g. "dental floss mod", "Aegray wireless", "Gerbv" (I've got gerbs? It's given me a blogged nose …), keyboards by "office", "keyboard fonts" — all just clutter. The "by brand" lists will probably not have the one you want in the list anyway.

I would personally lose the forum discussion RSS feed, and just have a "springboard" with captioned images, e.g. learn about switches, learn about keyboards, identify a switch¹, browse by keyboard, browse by company, something like that. Each of these would still have its red, green, blue or grey accent of course. Maybe things like Help and Acknowledgements would go at the bottom as plain links.

I don't have much time just right now, but here's a really naff sketch:

: Springboard.jpg (82.82 KiB) Viewed 12467 times

Something like that. I'll leave you to discuss.

¹ It would be nice to have a way to identify keyboards, too …

Muirium · 07 Jul 2014, 20:27

A good first step towards keyboard ID would be an overview of layouts. Full-size, TKL, 60%… let alone ISO vs. ANSI. Those are just as mysterious as the difference between MX stem colours to newbs.

jacobolus · 07 Jul 2014, 22:30

That front-page idea looks great to me!

Findecanor · 07 Jul 2014, 23:30

I don't think the existing front page is bad from an information perspective, but I agree that it does not "pop" and encourage people to start browsing categories.

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Jul 2014, 00:09

Something like this, except with graphics and styling that don't suck, and a few more buttons:

: Quick mock-up.png (108.58 KiB) Viewed 12437 times

(I am not sure what to do about the white on dark grey text, as I like that and I have nowhere to put it now.)

Zip file attached if anyone wants to play with it further.

PS I did of course use green ink before; the scanner is colourblind.

matt3o · 08 Jul 2014, 00:21

I'm glad I had this party started. I'll spend some time on this tomorrow and add my notes to your design, DB.

DanielT · 08 Jul 2014, 08:51

This is it !

I like the concept, and you could ad to that something like "Link of the day" this could contain some new article, or some really old one almost forgotten.

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Jul 2014, 09:21

I think there are add-ons to integrate links from [wiki]Special:RecentChanges[/wiki] on a page.

Plus you have [wiki]Special:Random[/wiki], so a lot of the functionality is already present.

matt3o · 08 Jul 2014, 09:29

"recent changes" I believe might be pretty nice actually.

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Jul 2014, 09:45

Originally I was thinking, changed pages (not individual changes), and new pages (in selected namespaces, possibly just Main). i.e. a way to maximise the end-user usefulness, since image uploads aren't relevant (you'll see them on the new or changed page) and it would stop a flood of changes to the same page from rendering the list useless. This could of course take a lot more work, depending on what extensions are available and how well they work, but Special:RecentChanges isn't in of itself front-page ready.

kbdfr · 08 Jul 2014, 09:47

A good part of my daily work consists of researching information. The best info is useless if it is concealed, i.e. if you don't find it at a single glance.
In this regard, I find the existing boxes are a much better help than the ones proposed.
Pictures in the wiki home page would be just noise distracting from real information, there is no need for them.
And I especially dislike the "Learn about…" approach, which contains just no information at all in this first step.

In fact, there is not much to be added to what webwit wrote:

webwit wrote: ↑[…] The difference and strength of the homepage is that you can start to browse through categories, and don't get some random content as in most other wiki, where you can only find stuff by search. It should have a relatively small number of main categories, and list the top links of each in the box, with a link to 'More...' […]

matt3o · 08 Jul 2014, 09:48

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑Originally I was thinking, changed pages (not individual changes), and new pages (in selected namespaces, possibly just Main). i.e. a way to maximise the end-user usefulness, since image uploads aren't relevant (you'll see them on the new or changed page) and it would stop a flood of changes to the same page from rendering the list useless. This could of course take a lot more work, depending on what extensions are available and how well they work, but Special:RecentChanges isn't in of itself front-page ready.

agreed. of course by "recent changes" I actually mean "new pages" (excluding pictures).

Maybe you could also have a sort of mini gallery (1x4 or 1x5) with the latest pictures uploaded.

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Jul 2014, 10:05

kbdfr wrote: ↑A good part of my daily work consists of researching information. The best info is useless if it is concealed, i.e. if you don't find it at a single glance.

Find what at a single glance? That just sounds impatient.

The only way to achieve your goal is to put every single article on the front page, otherwise the odds are very high that anything you're seeking specifically will never be there. In the mean time, people coming to learn will see a wall of text that is going to be pretty scary.

If you're doing research, you would most likely be using a search engine.

kbdfr · 08 Jul 2014, 12:05

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑
kbdfr wrote: ↑A good part of my daily work consists of researching information. The best info is useless if it is concealed, i.e. if you don't find it at a single glance.
Find what at a single glance? That just sounds impatient.

The only way to achieve your goal is to put every single article on the front page, otherwise the odds are very high that anything you're seeking specifically will never be there. In the mean time, people coming to learn will see a wall of text that is going to be pretty scary.

If you're doing research, you would most likely be using a search engine.

Not every single article should be on the front page of course, but clearly categorized topics showing what each of them contains. Like the existing wiki home page

Anything which is not explicit at first glance (meaning explicit for forst-time visitors) won't help.
If, planning to buy a new bicycle and trying to gather information, I visited a Velothority wiki, for sure a box labelled "Learn about bicycles" is the last thing I would have a look into.

In my opinion the existing structure is about the best to be achieved. Clear, simple, full of information.
Of course it would surely be a good idea to revise the contents of the boxes.

Muirium · 08 Jul 2014, 12:15

kbdfr wrote: ↑If, planning to buy a new bicycle and trying to gather information, I visited a Velothority wiki, for sure a box labelled "Learn about bicycles" is the last thing I would have a look into.

Bet your schoolteachers really liked you! I was like that for the subjects I had nothing but contempt for. But if I was into something, I wouldn't let a little thing like helpfulness put me off.

Good analogy, though. Bikes are just as complex as keyboards, and just as arcane for the newb. It's even easy to plunk down too much money on them for no apparent reason you can explain to anyone not also into them!

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Jul 2014, 19:42

kbdfr wrote: ↑In my opinion the existing structure is about the best to be achieved. Clear, simple, full of information.

OK, maybe we need a poll:

Question: when you look at the wiki front page, is your first reaction:

A) Yummy, I can see exactly what I want, knowledge nom nom

B) My eyes! The goggles do nothing!

Muirium · 08 Jul 2014, 19:54

B.

There's information there, certainly, but not instant enough to grab me away from whatever I came to search for. There's something about hitting a category page in a wiki that yells "wrong path!" to me. I always bounce back from them, as even on Wikipedia you're usually surrounded by rakes stubs.

Note: not the classic Sideshow Bob surrounded by a perfect sea of rakes that I was looking for. But a good answer for "what if Family Guy had done that scene instead?" Don't watch all 10 minutes, you sicken me!

Daniel Beardsmore · 08 Jul 2014, 20:44

You mean like where "clicky" just dumps you into a list of clicky switches? (The category page doesn't even link to an explanation of "clicky".)

I never noticed, as I never found the front page useful for anything. Even if we are to keep it, it needs a lot of work, and all the links on the front page need to point to pages that are well-developed instead of unexpected categories and, worse, dead ends:

Click [wiki]Topre[/wiki], and the resulting page doesn't have links to Topre keyboards, switches etc. (Edit: it does, just not in the format used on other pages)
Click [wiki]Leopold[/wiki] and someone's hard-linked three keyboards, two of which are red links. If anyone adds another Leopold keyboard and categorises it correctly, it won't show up on that page.
Ducky is no better — a virtually empty page that points to a category bearing only Ducky DK1008 and Ducky DK1087.

It would be nice if you could inline a category onto another page, i.e. on the Leopold page, it could have "Leopold keyboards" followed by a list of all pages in the Leopold keyboards category. (This is the entrance of the rabbit hole. It goes a lot, lot deeper .....)

My feeling was that behind each of the simple buttons on the front page, you could devote a whole page to each area of the wiki. Each of these pages would be like the existing front page boxes, but with more space to spread out, with room for explanatory text, illustrations, more comprehensive lists etc. People new to keyboard technology would be able to pick a starting point ("How do keyboards work, anyhow?", "I've got this old Fujitsu keyboard, I want to learn more about it", etc) and each area of the wiki could be given the level of treatment that the current design cannot fulfil.

As for illustration: icons, photos and diagrams are really useful for people whose English isn't very good, or who don't know English at all are accessing the site only through a machine translation service. A picture can often say all that you ever needed to know, but wouldn't be able to discover through a bad automated translation of the page.

It's important to bear in mind that, since it's impossible to get anyone to write English language content for the wiki, there's absolutely no chance of it being translated into other languages, so the more we can do to help ESL or non-English-speaking people to access the knowledge, the better. Inline photographs make a world of difference to this, and the quality and coverage of photos (good focus, good lighting, macro shots, multiple angles, full disassembly etc) greatly helps provide ready access to knowledge that often cannot be obtained through automated translation of the page content.

webwit · 08 Jul 2014, 22:00

My feeling was that behind each of the simple buttons on the front page, you could devote a whole page to each area of the wiki. Each of these pages would be like the existing front page boxes, but with more space to spread out, with room for explanatory text, illustrations, more comprehensive lists etc.

The front page is currently the only content overview page not automatically generated, and it has not been properly maintained with the organic growth of the wiki over time. Also this would demote the category navigation and our structure of content, and if you take all this together, we end up like most other wiki with various manual content overview pages which are outdated to various degrees, and you cannot browse through the knowledge base. Like I can't browse to Companies for discovery in your proposal. In these wiki you have to bump into links to other pages in content pages, or use search.